24th Nov Strikes... What a joke

lmimmfn

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I'm saying you can't expect a worker to happily take a cut in pay.

what???????????????? relative to losing your job a worker in the private sector will easily forefit a % of wages/salary to sustain work.

It doesnt even take that in the private sector, keeping a company competitive is number 1 otherwise there is no company and therefore no job. We dont all have the luxury of complaining when the good times end and trying to keep everything we had, and taking a day off to moan about it :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

nesf wrote: »

Specifically it measures NACE bands 15-37 as detailed here: http://www.repak.ie/files/PDFs/NaceCodesD.pdf

Bascially Manufacturing in all its forms including Recycling and other odds and ends.

Specifically:



For those who are interested:

Average Weekly Earnings 1998-2008 for Industry (as defined above): http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=QIJA.asp&TableName=Industrial+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_QI

Average Weekly earnings 1998-2008 for other sectors (Distribution and Business Services): http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=QEA01.asp&TableName=Average+Weekly+Earnings+for+Full+time+Employees+in+Distribution+and+Business+Services&StatisticalProduct=DB_QE

Average Weekly earnings 1998-2008 for Financial Institutions: http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=BICAC3.asp&TableName=Average+Weekly+Earnings+for+All+Employees+in+Banking+Insurance+and+Building+Societies&StatisticalProduct=DB_BI

Average Weekly earnings 1998-2008 for Public Servants: http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

Average Weekly earnings 1998-2008 for other sectors - that's a lovely little dataset:

Sector|1999|2000|2001|2002|2003|2004|2005|2006|2007|2008
Distribution and business services (50-64, 70-74)|466.2|505.01|545.41|563.58|589.45|619.41|644.7|682.03|709.2|728.61
Motor trades (50)|391.32|430.5|467.68|469.86|502.15|541.04|572.18|601.54|638.4|636.75
Wholesale trade (51)|489.61|527.2|558|583.73|598.76|626.38|665.48|703.26|711.65|737.67
Retail trade (52)|427.89|487.06|541.78|585.88|620.84|639.01|660.43|705.05|742.24|770.2
Business services (55-64, 70-74)|480.55|513.52|551.46|561.43|585.53|619.01|642.86|678.99|705.34|723.62
Hotels and restaurants (55)|303.81|322.02|339.26|347.06|367.45|395.77|418.67|431.16|446.34|465.23
Land transport (60)|464.44|502.83|553.92|568.07|591.41|624.16|651.54|680.67|711.19|742.88
Other business activities (74)|491.64|534.85|575.78|595.2|630.8|656.89|672.97|704.63|726.52|726.6
Post and telecommunications (64)|646.53|672.06|722.33|736.16|744.12|781.5|799.88|..|..|..
Real estate, renting of machinery and equipment|451.56|487.66|538.87|594.69|640.67|709.98|761.94|830.39|856|863.65
Computing activities, research and development |563.61|613.93|642.63|626.94|645.84|676.92|708.09|720.72|767.15|824.23
Wholesale and retail trade, repair of motor vehicles, motorcycles, personal and household goods (50-52)|440.46|489.59|534.42|567.5|596.58|620.12|647.9|687.37|716.04|737.32
Water and air transport, supporting transport and travel agent activities (61-63)|508.85|535.65|591.07|593.42|655.23|701.44|736.62|..|..|.


If you look at the IT sector and the estate agents you can see the end of the dotcom bubble and the start and end of the property bubble. Helps if you graph all sectors, and you'll see the strong inflection for IT in 2001, while estate agents' rates start rising strongly above the general trend shortly afterwards.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dresden8

Stark wrote: »

Won't affect me either. Until my employer pulls out of the country that is. We're already losing foreign investment as companies are put off by our high marginal tax rate.

I don't think Michael Dell was put off by our "high" marginal tax rate. Actually I'm quite sure he doesn't give a flying fnck.

Anyway, since the public sector are the alleged high earners in the country why are they supporting higher taxes for high earners, and if the private sector is so poorly paid why are they against higher taxes on those public servants?

Higher taxes hit public servants more, allegedly. Tax them to hell.

maggy_thatcher

dresden8 wrote: »

Anyway, since the public sector are the alleged high earners in the country why are they supporting higher taxes for high earners, and if the private sector is so poorly paid why are they against higher taxes on those public servants?

Higher taxes hit public servants more, allegedly. Tax them to hell.

You aren't looking at the big picture. If you increase the marginal rate, then you hit the employers of the private sector workers. These employers are generally more capable to relocate to a country with better taxes, taking the entire Irish presence with it...so you end up with higher unemployment, less corporation tax income, etc. Is that what you want?

bobbyjoe

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

You aren't looking at the big picture. If you increase the marginal rate, then you hit the employers of the private sector workers. These employers are generally more capable to relocate to a country with better taxes, taking the entire Irish presence with it...so you end up with higher unemployment, less corporation tax income, etc. Is that what you want?

Their going to relocate their business if their tax goes up a few percent?
Where they going to go?

Does that mean employers can't be taxed?

maggy_thatcher

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Their going to relocate their business if their tax goes up a few percent?
Where they going to go?

Does that mean employers can't be taxed?

No, it means you can't just jump the rate up to 60% as has been discussed...or say "tax them all to hell." Remember these are the guys currently paying the significant bulk of our current tax burden as it is, while many others are getting away scott-free.

A balance needs to be found between increasing taxes on high-earners, and spreading the tax burden amongst those who currently paying no tax at all.

Sizzler

Let them strike again, the €30m thats saved for everyday they go out should be given to the flood victims across the country, people who will only be too grateful.

Clanrickard

dresden8 wrote: »

I don't think Michael Dell was put off by our "high" marginal tax rate. Actually I'm quite sure he doesn't give a flying fnck.

Anyway, since the public sector are the alleged high earners in the country why are they supporting higher taxes for high earners, and if the private sector is so poorly paid why are they against higher taxes on those public servants?

Higher taxes hit public servants more, allegedly. Tax them to hell.

The Public Sector don't pay tax and I am tried of this waffle being repeated. It is a book keeping trick. A Public Sector Worker gets for the sake of argument 100 euro gross. Lets say she is taxed at 20%. She gets net 80 euro. She hasn't paid tax as such. The entire amount has come from the private sector.

Also the Unions want high taxes on high earners most of whom are in the private sector. I would suggest the Public Sector are on high middle incomes rather than high incomes. In the private sector there are some people at the top, some in the middle and a good lot at the bottom.

meditraitor

Mr Goon wrote: »

Teachers are usually some of the most intelligent people in most countries, so I'm sure a lot could turn their hand to banking at any level you asked them to.
.

Good lord, no wonder the ps think they should not take a pay cut, the arrogance

bobbyjoe

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

No, it means you can't just jump the rate up to 60% as has been discussed...or say "tax them all to hell." Remember these are the guys currently paying the significant bulk of our current tax burden as it is, while many others are getting away scott-free.

A balance needs to be found between increasing taxes on high-earners, and spreading the tax burden amongst those who currently paying no tax at all.

Sounds reasonable. So far we've seen those hit are services, the old, the sick and students. Now they are after PS workers. If some others were also getting hit maybe there would be more willingness to "share the pain".

maggy_thatcher

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Sounds reasonable. So far we've seen those hit are services, the old, the sick and students. Now they are after PS workers. If some others were also getting hit maybe there would be more willingness to "share the pain".

And the income levies of 2/4/6% depending on your salary don't count as hitting mid/high/very high earners?

Sizzler

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/every-teacher-in-ireland-is-here-as-tills-ring-out-1952757.html

wrote:

GONE shopping. The tills were ringing north of the border as southern shoppers, including droves of striking public servants, used the national day of action to migrate in search of a bargain.

When they finally managed to extricate themselves from the massive traffic jam on the motorway, shopping centre car parks in Newry were filled with southern registration plates.

The Quays Shopping Centre, the first opportunity for southerners to part themselves from their cash, was full of parents leading their bored-looking children round the shops. Most youngsters had probably hoped to be spending their windfall day off rather differently.

In Sainsburys, trolleys heaved under slabs of beer and boxes of wine. Even a child's pushchair, now minus its occupant, became a repository for bottles of gin, vodka and rum.

"Look at the crowds," said one woman in a distinctive southern lilt.

"Sure every teacher in Ireland is here," replied her friend, somewhat uncharitably.

Queues for the checkouts snaked down the aisles, with many of the first-timers making a rookie mistake by joining the lines nearest to the drinks section, which are always the longest.

Student Pauline Burke from Lucan in Dublin was making her first foray north of the border thanks to the national day of action.

"I had no classes because of the strike so I thought I'd come up and have a look.

"The way things are priced down the south it's just for greed. I spend the majority of my money at home so I don't think there's anything wrong with coming up here," she added.

Cheaper

She was joined by her friend, music teacher Claire Sherry from Walkinstown, Dublin, a more seasoned Newry shopper.

"Things are much cheaper here, that's why so many people come up," she said.
Another Dubliner, Katherine from Artane, is a regular visitor to the North and said people have to follow a bargain.

"People say you should be patriotic but you have to suit your pocket.

"I know the wages are not as good up here, but if they can afford to sell things as cheaply as they are, then why can't they do the same down south?"

"I come up all the time, a couple of times a year, mainly for the drink and the Christmas stuff," she added.

Meanwhile, not everyone was feeling so at ease with their decision to defect North.

One shopper, a train driver from the South Circular Road in Dublin, admitted to having doubts about spending his money in the Queen's jurisdiction as he stood with his trolley laden with Christmas crackers and selection boxes.

"I feel terrible doing it, I feel I'm giving money away, but I just follow the boss," he said, pointing to his partner.

"I'm on my day off, I'm a train driver so I'm not meant to be on strike," he joked.

"This is our first time doing a big shop here. You definitely get good value, if only on the wine," he added.

One teacher willing to go on record anyway!

dresden8

Clanrickard wrote: »

The Public Sector don't pay tax and I am tried of this waffle being repeated. It is a book keeping trick. A Public Sector Worker gets for the sake of argument 100 euro gross. Lets say she is taxed at 20%. She gets net 80 euro. She hasn't paid tax as such. The entire amount has come from the private sector.

Also the Unions want high taxes on high earners most of whom are in the private sector. I would suggest the Public Sector are on high middle incomes rather than high incomes. In the private sector there are some people at the top, some in the middle and a good lot at the bottom.

That's a silly arguement. My payslip shows significant deductions for tax each week.

If it were true how come you're not on here banging away that the public sector pay bill is not in fact 20 billion or so but only 11 or 12 billion?

dresden8

Sizzler wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/every-teacher-in-ireland-is-here-as-tills-ring-out-1952757.html

One teacher willing to go on record anyway!

The article claims that every teacher in Ireland is there and then goes on to point out people who aren't public sector strikers who went North for the day.

bobbyjoe

dresden8 wrote: »

The article claims that every teacher in Ireland is there and then goes on to point out people who aren't public sector strikers who went North for the day.

RTE was worse. Their proof that all the picketers were up North shopping was some kid in a car park pointing saying "he's a striker" then he burst out laughing.

prinz

Sizzler wrote: »

One teacher willing to go on record anyway!

The only person it mentions is a music teacher who could just as easily be a private teacher?

prinz

Sizzler wrote: »

Let them strike again, the €30m thats saved for everyday they go out should be given to the flood victims across the country, people who will only be too grateful.

Yeah, and I don't suppose any public sector workers were victims to flooding..

meditraitor wrote: »

Good lord, no wonder the ps think they should not take a pay cut, the arrogance

Did you read the comment that was a reply to?

bobbyjoe

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

And the income levies of 2/4/6% depending on your salary don't count as hitting mid/high/very high earners?

Not at all. The 6% on highest earners is still less than the pension levy on earners of less than 35k.

dresden8

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

You aren't looking at the big picture. If you increase the marginal rate, then you hit the employers of the private sector workers. These employers are generally more capable to relocate to a country with better taxes, taking the entire Irish presence with it...so you end up with higher unemployment, less corporation tax income, etc. Is that what you want?

Er no, income tax is paid by employees.

Sizzler

prinz wrote: »

The only person it mentions is a music teacher who could just as easily be a private teacher?

If she was I'd imagine she worked in a private school and hence would have been at work yesterday no?

prinz wrote: »

Yeah, and I don't suppose any public sector workers were victims to flooding..

Of course and they are fully entitled to the money just like anybody else! I didnt imply they werent? I said the money saved should be used constructively for people who need it. Would be a clever move if the govt had any cop on, but they dont :mad:

prinz

Sizzler wrote: »

If she was I'd imagine she worked in a private school and hence would have been at work yesterday no?

Ever heard of a day off... or a self employed music teacher?

Sizzler wrote: »

Of course and they are fully entitled to the money just like anybody else! I didnt imply they werent?

Yes you did.

dresden8

Sizzler wrote: »

If she was I'd imagine she worked in a private school and hence would have been at work yesterday no?

She could be a self-employed music teacher. Should we go on with this?

Sizzler

prinz wrote: »

Ever heard of a day off... or a self employed music teacher?

LOL, thats a first. She goes from school to school taking random classes, genius. A bit like the littlest hobo.

prinz wrote: »

Yes you did.

I didnt, if you took that from it, then thats your perogative.

dresden8 wrote: »

She could be a self-employed music teacher. Should we go on with this?

No. Lets try and track her down and ask her shall we? Would that make you feel better? Pointless stuff, you are arguing just for the sake of it.

prinz

Sizzler wrote: »

LOL, thats a first. She goes from school to school taking random classes, genius. A bit like the littlest hobo..

I took guitar lessons from a music teacher for 4 years, he was self employed Not every teacher has to teach in a school :rolleyes:

Sizzler wrote: »

No. Lets try and track her down and ask her shall we? Would that make you feel better? Pointless stuff, you are arguing just for the sake of it.

A bit like making assumptions when it suits you I suppose, like OMG traffic in Newry, it simply must be all the public servants!

KELTICKNIGHTT

Civil Service 573.57 633.10 656.19 681.03 744.24 795.87 838.35 877.76 916.06
Prison Officers 949.22 1,043.98 1,093.33 1,106.71 1,067.60 1,117.93 1,149.12 1,189.67 1,196.50
Administrative Civil Servants 538.58 597.87 621.87 648.63 724.97 776.24 819.48 860.35 898.89
Industrial Civil Servants 460.96 506.99 524.22 534.22 562.57 627.63 676.20 691.00 742.85
Others in the Public Sector 309.49 384.93 479.81 432.48 478.03 430.53 418.05 423.01 483.56
Defence 505.79 548.77 587.96 609.24 665.30 690.16 732.26 767.01 808.45
An Garda Siochana 837.87 939.67 945.21 959.86 1,058.75 1,096.77 1,170.25 1,205.95 1,207.24
Education 644.47 698.44 718.93 743.41 809.16 856.66 879.90 921.00 946.47
Primary education 690.35 717.08 716.88 712.49 765.14 812.20 931.11 865.30 887.17
Secondary education (excl. VECs & ITs) 685.02 753.21 801.19 848.41 935.58 970.37 998.67 1,045.76 1,078.46
Third level education (excl. VECs & ITs) 627.10 691.84 762.92 799.82 875.26 907.86 949.21 1,020.06 1,064.70
VECs and Institutes of Technology 560.36 628.28 627.36 669.04 734.46 801.04 817.71 846.35 861.78
Regional Bodies 499.56 558.90 578.16 608.44 666.34 734.87 772.25 817.55 837.81
Local Authorities 494.39 551.71 573.46 605.91 663.85 731.62 769.01 814.25 833.37
Non-Local Authority Regional Bodies 615.30 739.34 731.04 787.69 819.83 844.90 879.84 829.93 1,001.89
Semi-State Companies 634.98 696.99 766.06 814.87 867.67 908.63 964.70 1,008.16 1,050.11
Commercial Semi-State Companies 632.81 697.18 773.45 825.36 874.48 913.84 974.67 1,021.86 1,066.71
Non-Commercial Semi-State Companies 646.29 697.10 731.90 765.96 836.23 885.09 920.50 955.07 1,003.10
Public Sector (excluding Health) 611.54 671.78 704.28 734.86 797.09 844.16 882.02 922.46 948.91
An Garda Siochana (excl. overtime) 737.80 790.40 836.57 862.36 920.76 966.48 983.60 1,003.98 1,076.68





and private

Distribution and business services (50-64, 70-74) 466.20 505.01 545.41 563.58 589.45 619.41 644.70 682.03 709.20 728.61
Motor trades (50) 391.32 430.50 467.68 469.86 502.15 541.04 572.18 601.54 638.40 636.75
Wholesale trade (51) 489.61 527.20 558.00 583.73 598.76 626.38 665.48 703.26 711.65 737.67
Retail trade (52) 427.89 487.06 541.78 585.88 620.84 639.01 660.43 705.05 742.24 770.20
Business services (55-64, 70-74) 480.55 513.52 551.46 561.43 585.53 619.01 642.86 678.99 705.34 723.62
Hotels and restaurants (55) 303.81 322.02 339.26 347.06 367.45 395.77 418.67 431.16 446.34 465.23
Land transport (60) 464.44 502.83 553.92 568.07 591.41 624.16 651.54 680.67 711.19 742.88
Other business activities (74) 491.64 534.85 575.78 595.20 630.80 656.89 672.97 704.63 726.52 726.60
Post and telecommunications (64) 646.53 672.06 722.33 736.16 744.12 781.50 799.88 .. .. ..
Real estate, renting of machinery and equipment (70-71) 451.56 487.66 538.87 594.69 640.67 709.98 761.94 830.39 856.00 863.65
Computing activities, research and development (72-73) 563.61 613.93 642.63 626.94 645.84 676.92 708.09 720.72 767.15 824.23
Wholesale and retail trade, repair of motor vehicles, motorcycles, personal and household goods (50-52) 440.46 489.59 534.42 567.50 596.58 620.12 647.90 687.37 716.04 737.32
Water and air transport, supporting transport and travel agent activities (61-63) 508.85 535.65 591.07 593.42 655.23 701.44 736.62 .. .. ..

bobbyjoe

Sizzler wrote: »

LOL, thats a first. She goes from school to school taking random classes, genius. A bit like the littlest hobo.

The guy I get guitar lessons off does a few hours at home, a day in a school and a few nights in a music school.

Sizzler

bobbyjoe wrote: »

The guy I get guitar lessons off does a few hours at home, a day in a school and a few nights in a music school.

So he does nixers, shocking stuff in the current economy

bobbyjoe

Sizzler wrote: »

So he does nixers, shocking stuff in the current economy

The point I'm making is that a music teacher in a shop during the strike day is not necessarily bunking off.

alejandro1977

Pete M. wrote: »

Ah shur it's great to see we're holding onto some of our old traditions anyway.

I'm just back from 5 hours in the rain on the picket in Sligo and to see some of the comments here giving out about PS workers makes me pretty sad about the whole situation.


...
And to those of you here who are on the dole because you can't find work or because you were let go, sincere commiserations, but remember that it's the taxes that we continue to pay that pay for it. The PS Unions also oppose cuts in social welfare so we're trying to stand up to the shower of idiots we have in Government for you as well as us.

Have you taken leave of your senses? The taxes that the Public Sector pays is what pays for the dole?

No - Private Sector companies and individuals generate profit and bring money into the country - the international markets are currently making up the difference (i.e. Gov Deficit) with Government Debt - but perhaps not for much longer...

And you have the gall to slate the "Amateur Economists"!

While I'm at it, to those who say "Why didn't you get a PS job in the boom times?" . I have a Degree in Electronic Engineering (and M Eng in Digital Signal Processing- if you know what that is) - what exactly am I supposed to do in the Public Sector that would benefit the country? We can't all be lecturers before you say it. I work in a Foreign MNC - one of the companies that actually keeps this country going; every week I curse my career guidance teacher who advised me not to think about money but choose a career in which I had an interest and for which I had an aptitude, but then I think of my friend who quit one of the County Councils (Civil Engineer) as he could not stand the laziness of his colleagues and lack of a challenge

kippy

alejandro1977 wrote: »

Have you taken leave of your senses? The taxes that the Public Sector pays is what pays for the dole?

No - Private Sector companies and individuals generate profit and bring money into the country - the international markets are currently making up the difference (i.e. Gov Deficit) with Government Debt - but perhaps not for much longer...

And you have the gall to slate the "Amateur Economists"!

While I'm at it, to those who say "Why didn't you get a PS job in the boom times?" . I have a Degree in Electronic Engineering (and M Eng in Digital Signal Processing- if you know what that is) - what exactly am I supposed to do in the Public Sector that would benefit the country? We can't all be lecturers before you say it. I work in a Foreign MNC - one of the companies that actually keeps this country going; every week I curse my career guidance teacher who advised me not to think about money but choose a career in which I had an interest and for which I had an aptitude, but then I think of my friend who quit one of the County Councils (Civil Engineer) as he could not stand the laziness of his colleagues and lack of a challenge

Are you saying you work to "benefit the country"?

People keep the country going, not foreign MNC's......

I aint going against you here but you'd want to be careful about how your portray yourself, your fellow country men and the organistions, both public and private that operate in this country.

prinz

alejandro1977 wrote: »

While I'm at it, to those who say "Why didn't you get a PS job in the boom times?" . I have a Degree in Electronic Engineering (and M Eng in Digital Signal Processing- if you know what that is) - what exactly am I supposed to do in the Public Sector that would benefit the country?

There was plenty of jobs going. Clerical officers etc etc. Unless you considered yourself too good/over qualified for that?

In which case I will remind you about all the architects and solicitors queuing to get jobs in McDonald's and Marks and Spencer and the likes....

Stark

prinz wrote: »

There was plenty of jobs going. Clerical officers etc etc. Unless you considered yourself too good/over qualified for that?

Why should he abandon the skills he learned in college (at the taxpayer's expense) when he could do a job that makes use of his qualifications and allows him to contribute towards the country's knowledge economy? Not everyone can work in the public service.

prinz

Stark wrote: »

Why should he abandon the skills he learned in college (at the taxpayer's expense) when he could do a job that makes use of his qualifications and allows him to contribute towards the country's knowledge economy? Not everyone can work in the public service.

I never said he should. However the state doesn't owe him a job... his reason for not joining the public sector was he couldn't get a job up to scratch? Well tough luck then, go take your chance in the private sector. He has as much opportunity as anyone else to get a job in the public sector but made the choice not to. No one else to blame. Like I said jobs were there, and people snubbed them, myself included. I turned down a public job, opted for private. My loss. I am not going to whine about those who took up that job. They don't owe me anything.

Comes down to beggars and choosers. So many people were choosers, and made the wrong choice, now they're beggars. It's just petty bitching for a large part now to turn on the public service i.e. those jobs they snubbed a few years ago.

alejandro1977

prinz wrote: »

There was plenty of jobs going. Clerical officers etc etc. Unless you considered yourself too good/over qualified for that?

In which case I will remind you about all the architects and solicitors queuing to get jobs in McDonald's and Marks and Spencer and the likes....

Was is singular- the word is were.

Yes I was over qualified for those jobs and I still am. You are missing my point; high skilled jobs bring money into the country which goes to pay for the PS.

I still have my job so don't worry -and it's paid better than some low level civil service job; you unwittingly underscore my point by illustrating how little skill and creativity is required for these PS jobs! Clearly the level of logic required for your job isn't so high.

So for now I'll continue to pay the taxes that keep you lot in your paper pushing jobs so you can go up to Newry shopping... (I still can't believe your attitude, imagine wasting a good engineering degree as Clerical Officer, WTF?)

nesf

Less of the petty grammar nazi/personal digs crap like the post above please.

Also, going out of your way to use semi-colons to underline your superior punctuation and grammar is pretentious at best of times even when you aren't throwing digs at other users about their's.

prinz

alejandro1977 wrote: »

So for now I'll continue to pay the taxes that keep you lot in your paper pushing jobs so you can go up to Newry shopping... (I still can't believe your attitude, imagine wasting a good engineering degree as Clerical Officer, WTF?)

I work in the private sector And my point was there *were* jobs going from clerical officers up. I am sure there were some jobs that would have suited your qualifications, it's your bad luck you didn't take them.

As an aside, I have a good law degree. I could have gone down the trainee solictor route - which would have left me on the dole queue by now I imagine. Instead I looked around and saw it couldn't last. I chose to enter a different profession, and in doing so got myself a secure job. So I started from scratch. Perhaps it would be tough for some others to do that, take a job they consider 'below' them or something I don't know.

alejandro1977

nesf wrote: »

Less of the petty grammar nazi/personal digs crap like the post above please.

Also, going out of your way to use semi-colons to underline your superior punctuation and grammar is pretentious at best of times even when you aren't throwing digs at other users about their's.

ehh, apologies for the personal digs, but I hardly consider semi-colons underlining anything. Also, I wasn't going out of my way, that's the way I speak/write - I though it makes things easier to read. The last time I studied English was at Leaving Cert level (Technical Education at 3rd level) so I don't consider my punctuation and grammar to be superior.

alejandro1977

prinz wrote: »

I work in the private sector And my point was there *were* jobs going from clerical officers up. I am sure there were some jobs that would have suited your qualifications, it's your bad luck you didn't take them.

Actually I don't consider it bad luck at all. Again you miss my whole point, which was a retort to those PS workers who continually cry "why didn't you get a PS job in the boom".

Highly qualified people in the research/development area do not have genuine equivalents in the Public Sector. Is that so hard for you to believe? If you are so sure that I could have found a job "that would have suited [my] qualifications" please give examples.

Most fair minded people would believe that society best benefits from my skills in my current job - (do you disagree?). As it is in a sector that is internationally competitive we did not receive the salaries/bonuses of builders/architects/solicitors during the boom years, yet now we are expected to pay high levels of tax for salaries of PS workers which are inflated relative to those in our competitor countries. This is why Boards.ie is full of people who resent the PS.

BTW I don't consider PS jobs beneath me - I did some dirty, low paid, back breaking jobs on my J1/college summers. They simply do not interest me or make proper use of my skills and qualifications . I hope that doesn't sound pretentious.

alejandro1977

prinz wrote: »

I work in the private sector And my point was there *were* jobs going from clerical officers up. I am sure there were some jobs that would have suited your qualifications, it's your bad luck you didn't take them.

As an aside, I have a good law degree. I could have gone down the trainee solictor route - which would have left me on the dole queue by now I imagine. Instead I looked around and saw it couldn't last. I chose to enter a different profession, and in doing so got myself a secure job. So I started from scratch. Perhaps it would be tough for some others to do that, take a job they consider 'below' them or something I don't know.

Good for you, Sir.
As a matter of interest is it in the internationally traded sector (i.e. export related)? Just curious.

prinz

alejandro1977 wrote: »

Actually I don't consider it bad luck at all. Again you miss my whole point, which was a retort to those PS workers who continually cry "why didn't you get a PS job in the boom". .

Yeah. and I am asking...why didn't you? You chose not to.

alejandro1977 wrote: »

Highly qualified people in the research/development area do not have genuine equivalents in the Public Sector. Is that so hard for you to believe?

Yes they do. Personally I am related to a world specialist geneticist who works for the state here. He has lectured in the States and been seconded to Australia and New Zealand to help them out over there. I am sure he could earn top dollar elsewhere.

alejandro1977 wrote: »

Most fair minded people would believe that society best benefits from my skills in my current job - (do you disagree?)..

That depends on what you do.

alejandro1977 wrote: »

As it is in a sector that is internationally competitive we did not receive the salaries/bonuses of builders/architects/solicitors during the boom years, yet now we are expected to pay high levels of tax for salaries of PS workers which are inflated relative to those in our competitor countries..

I agree the wages are inflated and will have to be cut. Much like the wages in most sectors of the pivate business world were. If I had taken the PS job I was going for I would be earning a lot more than I am on now. However that point can be made without the need to resort to lazy slurs against the PS as a whole.

alejandro1977 wrote: »

This is why Boards.ie is full of people who resent the PS.

No, boards is full of people who resent the PS because they need a scapegoat and have all decided to jump on the bandwagon. A month or so ago it was the bankers, developers. Now every second thread is the PS.

prinz

alejandro1977 wrote: »

Good for you, Sir.
As a matter of interest is it in the internationally traded sector (i.e. export related)? Just curious.

Nope, but sure we can't all work in exports.

BrianD

lazygal wrote: »

Your friend should be aware that several constitutional cases have been taken against "closed shop" situations and under the Consitution one has the right to freedom of disassociation ie the right to leave a union without being denied ancillary rights and benefits.
As to the employment law to which you refer, it is standard practice in most European countries and designed to protect people in any protest in which they wish to partake. Ireland is not unique in having such laws, but one must consider the weakening of such laws in respect of the changes in legislation to faciltitate the non-union US multinationals in coming here.

Not in his government department it would seem. Agreement in place with union preventing staff taking annual leave and they must be certified if on sick leave. Furthermore, the "bogeyman story" was trotted out to illustrate what happens to those who don't toe the union line.

I doubt many will be aware a recent Act of the Oireachtas was passed (not sure of its title, sorry) to allow US companies avail of the lower accounting standards which prevail in the US , so they can manipulate their accounts before sending profits home. If you want to look at who is manipulating the system, you'd have to look a lot further than the public service. The Government will use legislation to faciltitate any ideological which takes its fancy, even if its to the detriment of the workforce.

I don't think that the public service are manipulating the system per se. I do think that there's too many and there is an inefficient mindset. Personally, the solution is less public servants that are perhaps better paid. At the moment we have too many. So if they all want to stay in employment, they all need to take a cut.

I have heard this described as socialism for the banks and capitalism for the workers. And surely public servants who are spending money and not being paid for today should be commended for their contribution to the economy today.

Well it seems a lot of public servants opted to spend their cash outside of the state yesterday. There's a lot of blame being apportioned to the banks but it is not as simple as that. I think we all have a lot to answer for.

alejandro1977

prinz wrote: »

Yeah. and I am asking...why didn't you? You chose not to.



Yes they do. Personally I am related to a world specialist geneticist who works for the state here. He has lectured in the States and been seconded to Australia and New Zealand to help them out over there. I am sure he could earn top dollar elsewhere.



That depends on what you do.



I agree the wages are inflated and will have to be cut. Much like the wages in most sectors of the pivate business world were. If I had taken the PS job I was going for I would be earning a lot more than I am on now. However that point can be made without the need to resort to lazy slurs against the PS as a whole.



No, boards is full of people who resent the PS because they need a scapegoat and have all decided to jump on the bandwagon. A month or so ago it was the bankers, developers. Now every second thread is the PS.

Frankly I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make. That I should just shut up? Maybe I will, this debate is going around in circles.

OK - so let's say- that I work as an engineer designing DSP ASICs for the Comms sector. In layman's terms they are the little black chips that go into mobile phones/ computers etc. Where is the PS equivalent of that (remember we can't all be lecturers - remember also that lecturers primarily teach would be engineers/geneticists who then go out and work in the export orientated private sector)?

I can't say about genetics (it's fair to say that it's a much newer field than mine and/so there is more Gov/Uni research going on) but in electronics most of the leading edge R&D work is done in the Private Sector - typically in the US, though India/China are catching up.

If you want to talk about lazy slurs/illogical positions etc. then how about considering the PS unions who won't take a pay cut because people like me have yet to take one?
They keep throwing out the questionable stat that 70% of private sector workers haven't taken pay cuts, without considering how that pay is generated or where income tax comes from.

Nope, we don't all have to work in exports, though if a few more of us did it would help close the Gov Deficit..

Shea O'Meara

They way I look at it is;
You work in the Public sector. The private sector is doing great, but as a public service you can't assign profit margins as you would in the Private. However the cost of living is rising so you look for an increase in salary. The Government tell you no because the Public sector can't be measured like a Private sector company even if the economy is doing great. So you broker a deal were you get marginal increases over a period of years.
Then the economy goes belly up and suddenly the Public sector wage can be associated to that of the Private sector. So now there's talk of cutting your wages. Of course you'd say 'Hang on a minute.'
So I can see how accepting cuts wouldn't be an automatic thing.
Again, if your wages are paid by Ronald McDonald or taxpayers, as a worker you want a fair deal as promised, but understand the current economic situation. So I'm sure a compromise will be reached.
Is the only issue here that some Private sector workers on here feel they own Public service workers? Those of us who vote elect people who call they shots. The government requires people to operate various departments etc. These people are hired and paid like everyone else. Why are we focusing on Public service workers when it all starts and finishes with elected government officials?
Although the claim the supposed surge in cross border shopping is down to PS workers is nonsense, I'm sure nobody on here would ever dream of going to Newry as they would want to put our economy ahead of their own bargain hunting.:rolleyes:

bonzos

lazer.blue wrote: »

As I said earlier I have family working in the public sector and they are not the multi tea break taking, book reading, dossing type described above. There are wasters like this in all walks of life. In over 20 years working in the private sector I saw plenty of people get away with this type of carry on. Granted it soes seem harder for public sector employers to take action against people like this. We should not tar all puiblic sectors with the same brush, the majority ARE hard woking conscientious people. Reform is needed but it should not be achieved by riding roughshod over people

I never said that ALL public sector worker were dosers.....but why do we have a situtation where the supervisors in these offices turn a blind eye to people turning up for work and doing feck all?it has got to the stage where they are entitled to do nothing if they want and if anyone questions them they run to their union!!Why dont all these hard working PS workers not blow the whistle on all the wasters dragging down their good name?.....they are as much to blame by doing nothing and turning a blind eye as the wasters themselves

dresden8

BrianD wrote: »

Agreement in place with union preventing staff taking annual leave and they must be certified if on sick leave.

That is not an agreement, it's straight from personnel.

You can't sanction annual leave when there's nobody else around.

Koloman

I want the Public Sector employees to read the following quote;

"In Latvia, whose economy is expected to shrink by more than a quarter before the upturn begins, scores of schools and hospitals are being closed as budgets are slashed. Public sector wages have been cut by up to 40%, pensions reduced, and under the 2010 budget agreed last week there will be further steep public spending cuts."

That quote is from an article in the Guardian paper. The link is below.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/nov/10/former-communist-countries-financial-crisis

What the Irish government is proposing in the budget is so tame compared to what is happening in these countries. Can you imagine if the pay of the PS was reduced by 40% along with schools and hospitals closing?!

The PS employees in this country don't know their born. The rest of us have had ENOUGH! Yesterday's shenanigans was the last straw.

STOP destroying the country!

prinz

Koloman wrote: »

What the Irish government is proposing in the budget is so tame compared to what is happening in these countries. Can you imagine if the pay of the PS was reduced by 40% along with schools and hospitals closing?!

Do you want to work for Latvian wage rates? I don't. Do you want schools a and hospitals to close? As someone with a parent in hospital care right now, I don't/

Koloman wrote: »

STOP destroying the country!:mad:

STOP the nonsense!! :mad:

Koloman

prinz wrote: »

Do you want schools a and hospitals to close?

Of course I don't want schools and hospitals to close! I never said I did! I was just pointing out what is happening in other European countries with a similar economic disaster on their hands.

The PS workers are very fortunate that they live in Ireland and not Latvia. I almost wish for the IMF to come in and sort the PS sector out. I hope it doesn't happen but the way things are going it seems inevitable.

alejandro1977

kippy wrote: »

Are you saying you work to "benefit the country"?

People keep the country going, not foreign MNC's......

People? Like nurses, teachers etc? Agreed. Where does the money come from to pay their wages? Exports/MNCs. This appears to be lost on a lot of people. I.E. the person who claimed that the PS members' taxes were paying for the dole - see below. This absolutely ludicrous quote prompted me to post (at length) on boards.ie for first time ever.

Pete M. wrote: »

I'm just back from 5 hours in the rain on the picket in Sligo and to see some of the comments here giving out about PS workers makes me pretty sad about the whole situation.
...
And to those of you here who are on the dole because you can't find work or because you were let go, sincere commiserations, but remember that it's the taxes that we continue to pay that pay for it. The PS Unions also oppose cuts in social welfare so we're trying to stand up to the shower of idiots we have in Government for you as well as us.

No, I don't know how you could even think I was saying that I work for the country. My point was that I would be wasted (useless/bored/frustrated) in the Public Service as my skills are not applicable there - of course being useless is not a firing offense in the PS unlike competitive private sector companies. I would be drawing a salary from the state instead of being a net contributor which I am now.

kippy wrote: »

I aint going against you here but you'd want to be careful about how your portray yourself, your fellow country men and the organistions, both public and private that operate in this country.

I really don't understand what you mean by that? Is it some kind of threat?

As for Countrymen? This whole "society"/"partnership"/"solidarity" malarkey means nothing in reality. It's a sham. It's used by vested interests to benefit themselves; how has it benefited the Dell workers in Limerick? - how will it balance the government books before the IMF is called in? People look out for themselves and their families, the difference is that the 'holier than thou' PS workers make out like they're in it for the common good. That's how many people in the silent majority feel; except they're not going to go on strike to "express their frustration" like the charlatans in the PS Unions. Patriotic Ireland is dead and gone and let's not pretend otherwise.

P.S. Jack O'Connor (et al) a countryman? JO'C means nothing to me. He's just some bearded **** who happens to live on the same island as I do and he's out to dip his hand into my pocket.