24th Nov Strikes... What a joke

prinz

alejandro1977 wrote: »

Good for you, Sir.
As a matter of interest is it in the internationally traded sector (i.e. export related)? Just curious.

Nope, but sure we can't all work in exports.

BrianD

lazygal wrote: »

Your friend should be aware that several constitutional cases have been taken against "closed shop" situations and under the Consitution one has the right to freedom of disassociation ie the right to leave a union without being denied ancillary rights and benefits.
As to the employment law to which you refer, it is standard practice in most European countries and designed to protect people in any protest in which they wish to partake. Ireland is not unique in having such laws, but one must consider the weakening of such laws in respect of the changes in legislation to faciltitate the non-union US multinationals in coming here.

Not in his government department it would seem. Agreement in place with union preventing staff taking annual leave and they must be certified if on sick leave. Furthermore, the "bogeyman story" was trotted out to illustrate what happens to those who don't toe the union line.

I doubt many will be aware a recent Act of the Oireachtas was passed (not sure of its title, sorry) to allow US companies avail of the lower accounting standards which prevail in the US , so they can manipulate their accounts before sending profits home. If you want to look at who is manipulating the system, you'd have to look a lot further than the public service. The Government will use legislation to faciltitate any ideological which takes its fancy, even if its to the detriment of the workforce.

I don't think that the public service are manipulating the system per se. I do think that there's too many and there is an inefficient mindset. Personally, the solution is less public servants that are perhaps better paid. At the moment we have too many. So if they all want to stay in employment, they all need to take a cut.

I have heard this described as socialism for the banks and capitalism for the workers. And surely public servants who are spending money and not being paid for today should be commended for their contribution to the economy today.

Well it seems a lot of public servants opted to spend their cash outside of the state yesterday. There's a lot of blame being apportioned to the banks but it is not as simple as that. I think we all have a lot to answer for.

alejandro1977

prinz wrote: »

Yeah. and I am asking...why didn't you? You chose not to.



Yes they do. Personally I am related to a world specialist geneticist who works for the state here. He has lectured in the States and been seconded to Australia and New Zealand to help them out over there. I am sure he could earn top dollar elsewhere.



That depends on what you do.



I agree the wages are inflated and will have to be cut. Much like the wages in most sectors of the pivate business world were. If I had taken the PS job I was going for I would be earning a lot more than I am on now. However that point can be made without the need to resort to lazy slurs against the PS as a whole.



No, boards is full of people who resent the PS because they need a scapegoat and have all decided to jump on the bandwagon. A month or so ago it was the bankers, developers. Now every second thread is the PS.

Frankly I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make. That I should just shut up? Maybe I will, this debate is going around in circles.

OK - so let's say- that I work as an engineer designing DSP ASICs for the Comms sector. In layman's terms they are the little black chips that go into mobile phones/ computers etc. Where is the PS equivalent of that (remember we can't all be lecturers - remember also that lecturers primarily teach would be engineers/geneticists who then go out and work in the export orientated private sector)?

I can't say about genetics (it's fair to say that it's a much newer field than mine and/so there is more Gov/Uni research going on) but in electronics most of the leading edge R&D work is done in the Private Sector - typically in the US, though India/China are catching up.

If you want to talk about lazy slurs/illogical positions etc. then how about considering the PS unions who won't take a pay cut because people like me have yet to take one?
They keep throwing out the questionable stat that 70% of private sector workers haven't taken pay cuts, without considering how that pay is generated or where income tax comes from.

Nope, we don't all have to work in exports, though if a few more of us did it would help close the Gov Deficit..

Shea O'Meara

They way I look at it is;
You work in the Public sector. The private sector is doing great, but as a public service you can't assign profit margins as you would in the Private. However the cost of living is rising so you look for an increase in salary. The Government tell you no because the Public sector can't be measured like a Private sector company even if the economy is doing great. So you broker a deal were you get marginal increases over a period of years.
Then the economy goes belly up and suddenly the Public sector wage can be associated to that of the Private sector. So now there's talk of cutting your wages. Of course you'd say 'Hang on a minute.'
So I can see how accepting cuts wouldn't be an automatic thing.
Again, if your wages are paid by Ronald McDonald or taxpayers, as a worker you want a fair deal as promised, but understand the current economic situation. So I'm sure a compromise will be reached.
Is the only issue here that some Private sector workers on here feel they own Public service workers? Those of us who vote elect people who call they shots. The government requires people to operate various departments etc. These people are hired and paid like everyone else. Why are we focusing on Public service workers when it all starts and finishes with elected government officials?
Although the claim the supposed surge in cross border shopping is down to PS workers is nonsense, I'm sure nobody on here would ever dream of going to Newry as they would want to put our economy ahead of their own bargain hunting.:rolleyes:

bonzos

lazer.blue wrote: »

As I said earlier I have family working in the public sector and they are not the multi tea break taking, book reading, dossing type described above. There are wasters like this in all walks of life. In over 20 years working in the private sector I saw plenty of people get away with this type of carry on. Granted it soes seem harder for public sector employers to take action against people like this. We should not tar all puiblic sectors with the same brush, the majority ARE hard woking conscientious people. Reform is needed but it should not be achieved by riding roughshod over people

I never said that ALL public sector worker were dosers.....but why do we have a situtation where the supervisors in these offices turn a blind eye to people turning up for work and doing feck all?it has got to the stage where they are entitled to do nothing if they want and if anyone questions them they run to their union!!Why dont all these hard working PS workers not blow the whistle on all the wasters dragging down their good name?.....they are as much to blame by doing nothing and turning a blind eye as the wasters themselves

dresden8

BrianD wrote: »

Agreement in place with union preventing staff taking annual leave and they must be certified if on sick leave.

That is not an agreement, it's straight from personnel.

You can't sanction annual leave when there's nobody else around.

Koloman

I want the Public Sector employees to read the following quote;

"In Latvia, whose economy is expected to shrink by more than a quarter before the upturn begins, scores of schools and hospitals are being closed as budgets are slashed. Public sector wages have been cut by up to 40%, pensions reduced, and under the 2010 budget agreed last week there will be further steep public spending cuts."

That quote is from an article in the Guardian paper. The link is below.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/nov/10/former-communist-countries-financial-crisis

What the Irish government is proposing in the budget is so tame compared to what is happening in these countries. Can you imagine if the pay of the PS was reduced by 40% along with schools and hospitals closing?!

The PS employees in this country don't know their born. The rest of us have had ENOUGH! Yesterday's shenanigans was the last straw.

STOP destroying the country!

prinz

Koloman wrote: »

What the Irish government is proposing in the budget is so tame compared to what is happening in these countries. Can you imagine if the pay of the PS was reduced by 40% along with schools and hospitals closing?!

Do you want to work for Latvian wage rates? I don't. Do you want schools a and hospitals to close? As someone with a parent in hospital care right now, I don't/

Koloman wrote: »

STOP destroying the country!:mad:

STOP the nonsense!! :mad:

Koloman

prinz wrote: »

Do you want schools a and hospitals to close?

Of course I don't want schools and hospitals to close! I never said I did! I was just pointing out what is happening in other European countries with a similar economic disaster on their hands.

The PS workers are very fortunate that they live in Ireland and not Latvia. I almost wish for the IMF to come in and sort the PS sector out. I hope it doesn't happen but the way things are going it seems inevitable.

alejandro1977

kippy wrote: »

Are you saying you work to "benefit the country"?

People keep the country going, not foreign MNC's......

People? Like nurses, teachers etc? Agreed. Where does the money come from to pay their wages? Exports/MNCs. This appears to be lost on a lot of people. I.E. the person who claimed that the PS members' taxes were paying for the dole - see below. This absolutely ludicrous quote prompted me to post (at length) on boards.ie for first time ever.

Pete M. wrote: »

I'm just back from 5 hours in the rain on the picket in Sligo and to see some of the comments here giving out about PS workers makes me pretty sad about the whole situation.
...
And to those of you here who are on the dole because you can't find work or because you were let go, sincere commiserations, but remember that it's the taxes that we continue to pay that pay for it. The PS Unions also oppose cuts in social welfare so we're trying to stand up to the shower of idiots we have in Government for you as well as us.

No, I don't know how you could even think I was saying that I work for the country. My point was that I would be wasted (useless/bored/frustrated) in the Public Service as my skills are not applicable there - of course being useless is not a firing offense in the PS unlike competitive private sector companies. I would be drawing a salary from the state instead of being a net contributor which I am now.

kippy wrote: »

I aint going against you here but you'd want to be careful about how your portray yourself, your fellow country men and the organistions, both public and private that operate in this country.

I really don't understand what you mean by that? Is it some kind of threat?

As for Countrymen? This whole "society"/"partnership"/"solidarity" malarkey means nothing in reality. It's a sham. It's used by vested interests to benefit themselves; how has it benefited the Dell workers in Limerick? - how will it balance the government books before the IMF is called in? People look out for themselves and their families, the difference is that the 'holier than thou' PS workers make out like they're in it for the common good. That's how many people in the silent majority feel; except they're not going to go on strike to "express their frustration" like the charlatans in the PS Unions. Patriotic Ireland is dead and gone and let's not pretend otherwise.

P.S. Jack O'Connor (et al) a countryman? JO'C means nothing to me. He's just some bearded **** who happens to live on the same island as I do and he's out to dip his hand into my pocket.

tigerlilyblue

sean11 wrote: »

I hear there is a 5 Mile Tailback going into Newry.... Way to get Public Support!!! Have a day off to shop... Cost the Gov more money!!I dont see many picket lines outside schools either!! Laughable!!

That's because primary teachers were not meant to picket outside schools they were meant to gather outside the Department of Education and other meeting points

alejandro1977

prinz wrote: »

Do you want to work for Latvian wage rates? I don't. Do you want schools a and hospitals to close? As someone with a parent in hospital care right now, I don't/

Where was the Latvian Gov getting the money to run their Hospitals?

Ans: They were borrowing like crazy (as they were paying relatively high wages considering their export sector wasn't competitive) - after the boom turned to bust the international lenders stopped lending money and the IMF came in.

Do you see where I am going with this?


BTW I'm still waiting for you to give me an example of a PS job where I would be gainfully/productively employed - aside from lecturing would-be engineers.

Dr Kamikazi

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

They way I look at it is;
You work in the Public sector. The private sector is doing great, but as a public service you can't assign profit margins as you would in the Private. However the cost of living is rising so you look for an increase in salary. The Government tell you no because the Public sector can't be measured like a Private sector company even if the economy is doing great. So you broker a deal were you get marginal increases over a period of years.
Then the economy goes belly up and suddenly the Public sector wage can be associated to that of the Private sector. So now there's talk of cutting your wages. Of course you'd say 'Hang on a minute.'
So I can see how accepting cuts wouldn't be an automatic thing.
Again, if your wages are paid by Ronald McDonald or taxpayers, as a worker you want a fair deal as promised, but understand the current economic situation. So I'm sure a compromise will be reached.
Is the only issue here that some Private sector workers on here feel they own Public service workers? Those of us who vote elect people who call they shots. The government requires people to operate various departments etc. These people are hired and paid like everyone else. Why are we focusing on Public service workers when it all starts and finishes with elected government officials?
Although the claim the supposed surge in cross border shopping is down to PS workers is nonsense, I'm sure nobody on here would ever dream of going to Newry as they would want to put our economy ahead of their own bargain hunting.:rolleyes:

I know people who work in the public sector. They tell me every time I meet them their wages are over the top crazy silly money for little work.
Everytime I'm in a government office it's like watching continents drift in slow motion.
I've seen plants move faster.
This outcry over a tiny cut only says one thing:
We like the gravy train and we'll throw a strop if anyone even thinks of slowing it down.
Greed, ignorance, stupidity, selfishness and just downright pig headedness.

Shea O'Meara

Dr Kamikazi wrote: »

I know people who work in the public sector. They tell me every time I meet them their wages are over the top crazy silly money for little work.
Everytime I'm in a government office it's like watching continents drift in slow motion.
I've seen plants move faster.
This outcry over a tiny cut only says one thing:
We like the gravy train and we'll throw a strop if anyone even thinks of slowing it down.
Greed, ignorance, stupidity, selfishness and just downright pig headedness.

Have you ever witnessed the abuse they get in housing departments, welfare offices, emergency rooms? You can't use a few second hand opinions to tar them all with the same brush.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

yoshytoshy

It's important to remember that the government increased public sector wages ,to cope with the swell in house prices.
In a way ,they were covering up the ease at which they were funding their budget.

The sooner we get a new government in ,the sooner we can start afresh ,buiochas le Dia:(

prinz

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's not what I was suggesting at all, but it's pointless to tell the public sector to look at Latvia in this situation and be happy etc. :rolleyes: I'm all for cutting spending. However it's pointless to expect there not to be a backlash either.

yoshytoshy wrote: »

It's important to remember that the government increased public sector wages ,to cope with the swell in house prices. In a way ,they were covering up the ease at which they were funding their budget.

+1, and the low public sector pay was one of the reasons the boom started in the first place, wasn't it Liam Carroll of Zoe Developments who said he started out building "apartments that even a garda, teacher or nurse could afford". The country got caught into a vicious cycle of spend, spend spend, and every sector is to blame.


This is what every single person should be reading and reflecting on...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63133129&postcount=14

Personal responsibility still hasn't hit home yet in Ireland, and why has it not? Because we've lurched instead from one scape goat to the next, banks, developers, the private sector, the public sector.... finger pointing, mud slinging all worth SFA. It's the very people who are most vocal in attacking the public sector now, who were spending spending spending when times were "good".

Dr Kamikazi

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Have you ever witnessed the abuse they get in housing departments, welfare offices, emergency rooms? You can't use a few second hand opinions to tar them all with the same brush.

Not second hand opinion, first hand accounts from friends who are public sector workers who each earned more than double than what I earned when I still had a job.
I was an office technician and in and out of government buildings every day.
I did in 8 years witness one serious incident in the housing department where the Gards where called.
The rest was about as stressful as a relaxed stroll in the park in there, at least on the public workers side.
Yes, being on duty in an A&E department at night or a Gard at 3 am is no picknick but it's been well proven that the pay ain't bad by any means or standards whatsoever.
How many civil servants have a couple of jobs going at the same time to make ends meet?
Work you hours, go home, enjoy.
Level of sympathy for public sector workers: zero.
More like everyone looking on at a child rolling on the floor of the supermarket, purple in the face from screaming cause mommy won't buy him the sweets he wants.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

KELTICKNIGHTT

prinz wrote: »

That's not what I was suggesting at all, but it's pointless to tell the public sector to look at Latvia in this situation and be happy etc. :rolleyes: I'm all for cutting spending. However it's pointless to expect there not to be a backlash either.



+1, and the low public sector pay was one of the reasons the boom started in the first place, wasn't it Liam Carroll of Zoe Developments who said he started out building "apartments that even a garda, teacher or nurse could afford". The country got caught into a vicious cycle of spend, spend spend, and every sector is to blame.


This is what every single person should be reading and reflecting on...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63133129&postcount=14

Personal responsibility still hasn't hit home yet in Ireland, and why has it not? Because we've lurched instead from one scape goat to the next, banks, developers, the private sector, the public sector.... finger pointing, mud slinging all worth SFA. It's the very people who are most vocal in attacking the public sector now, who were spending spending spending when times were "good".

being watching you and your fellow ps workers here for last few days and you guys want too get real

private workers are losing jobs daily and taking cuts in companys including no over time these day,its going too happen weather you like it orr not,if you dont take a cut then there be job cut in public sector,the whole country knows this but you guys have your head ddeep in the sand and think your going too talk yourself out of it,THE COUNTRY CANT AFFORD THE PUBLIC SECTOR HIGH COST ANYMORE,GOVERMENT CANT KEEP BORROWING FOR IT ANYMORE,for the sizwe of country there is too many public sector workers,
so wake up,because the only ones who beleive other wise is you and your in dreamland if you think its going too last,the gravy train is comming too a haul soon,SO GET REAL AND WAKE UP,,have a nice day

prinz

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

being watching you and your fellow ps workers here for last few days and you guys want too get real

First mistake. I am a private sector worker. Won't bother with the rest because it's probably nonsense as well. See what I mean about jumping on a bandwagon...

KELTICKNIGHTT

prinz wrote: »

First mistake. I am a private sector worker. Won't bother with the rest because it's probably nonsense as well. See what I mean about jumping on a bandwagon...

maybe too you guy but not too everyone else who see what you write
have a nice day:)

prinz

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

maybe too you guy but not too everyone else who see what you write
have a nice day:)

Why because I am approaching things logically and not joining the pitchfork-fest?

KELTICKNIGHTT

prinz wrote: »

Why because I am approaching things logically and not joining the pitchfork-fest?

is that what you call it, sure:D

prinz

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

is that what you call it, sure:D

Yes that is what I call it, and it is exactly why the country will never improve. But sure, if a Liveline style rant, on every thread, makes you feel better go for it.

KELTICKNIGHTT

prinz wrote: »

Yes that is what I call it, and it is exactly why the country will never improve. But sure, if a Liveline style rant, on every thread, makes you feel better go for it.

being watching you do that for last few days and would expect you will continue the same,what you fail too understand is there will be cuts in public sector as theres no choice unless there a hugh improvement in finances,so you little picking here on boards wont change that,have nice day

prinz

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

being watching you do that for last few days and would expect you will continue the same,what you fail too understand is there will be cuts in public sector as theres no choice unless there a hugh improvement in finances,so you little picking here on boards wont change that,have nice day

If you could point out any post I made in which I claimed cuts were not necessary I would be most grateful.

KELTICKNIGHTT

prinz wrote: »

If you could point out any post I made in which I claimed cuts were not necessary I would be most grateful.

where did i state you didnt know in my last post,i didnt say,i said you would continue the same as you been posting,the only people who dont beleive there will be cuts on sizeable amount is the public sector,
the money isnt there,the suggestions they put out dont work enough,there meeting with goverment may only come too arrangement too the least amount of cuts and not sure if that enough for ps workers,
the private sector cant give anymore as our best export will be our people on a larger scale

murphaph

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's some statistic. I hadn't realised it had gotten so out of control. That's a gigantic increase in spending but still we have prefab schools falling apart-where did the money go? It must have been wages for teachers, the average of whom get paid sixty-thousand Euro a year!:eek:

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Wow. I hadn't realised it had gotten so bad here either. I seem to remember about half my year group took pass maths (2 or 3 lads did foundation IIRC) and the other half took honours. I was a bit of a daydreamer at school and my maths teacher often had to chastise me for looking out the window but I managed to get a B in honours maths which wasn't too shabby. It was definitely around the half/half mark. We had 2 honours classes and 2 pass classes for out year group. How has it collapsed to 16% doing honours maths today?

Something stinks and it's not the low level of spending on education (obviously) so it must be how that money is being spent. Looks like it's about time a spotlight was shone on our teachers to be honest with some of the embarrassing figures coming out lately.

prinz

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

where did i state you didnt know in my last post,i didnt say,i said you would continue the same as you been posting

eh here....

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

what you fail too understand is there will be cuts in public sector as theres no choice unless there a hugh improvement in finances,so you little picking here on boards wont change that,have nice day

I take it you actually looked back through my posts and can not find any instance of me claiming that cuts would not/could not/must not be made.:rolleyes:. What I am looking for is a little reality. Is that too much to ask? While people are on here castigating the public sector the real reasons for the meltdown disappear into the fog..