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Boards.ie is obsessed with the Public Sector

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    #32
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Simply not true... The culture and attitude within the public sector doesn't actually suit most people. Most people want to perform better in their job over time, they seek out challenges within their current job and naturally seek to improve their work environment and also the service experienced by the customer.

    This is the main reason why I would never have looked for a job in the public sector, it is a place that I would end up being completely depressed working in. Nothing whatsoever to do with better earning opportunities elsewhere, I couldn't retain my dignity and my sanity in a workplace that is so inherently opposed (1) to change and improvement, so overrun with petty rules, union directives, (2) promotion on seniority, collective consultations (3) required on even the smallest decisions and change, not for me I'm afraid...
    (1) not widespread in my experience
    (2) not at all in my experience
    (3) not unknown, but not widespread in my experience


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    #33
    thatsa spicy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭thatsa spicy


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Simply not true... The culture and attitude within the public sector doesn't actually suit most people. Most people want to perform better in their job over time, they seek out challenges within their current job and naturally seek to improve their work environment and also the service experienced by the customer.

    This is the main reason why I would never have looked for a job in the public sector, it is a place that I would end up being completely depressed working in. Nothing whatsoever to do with better earning opportunities elsewhere, I couldn't retain my dignity and my sanity in a workplace that is so inherently opposed to change and improvement, so overrun with petty rules, union directives, promotion on seniority, collective consultations required on even the smallest decisions and change, not for me I'm afraid...

    I'd actually tend to agree with you on all this. Its just that I find it so :rolleyes: that the same people who, 5 years ago, would have scoffed at the idea of joining the guards now see it as an extremely attractive career. Same as teaching.


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    #34
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    imme wrote: »
    (1) not widespread in my experience
    (2) not at all in my experience
    (3) not unknown, but not widespread in my experience

    I can't speak for where you work, but promotion within the whole civil service is on the basis of seniority. There is no appitite for improving the level of the service offered to the public unless the whole thing has been discussed at partnership level and a figure/salary increase has been attached to the change required. Go into any public office in town, just for example the CRO, they open at 9:30AM and close at 4:30PM, Monday-Friday...

    http://www.cro.ie/ena/about-cro-opening-hours.aspx

    These people start a half an hour after the rest of the workforce and finish an hour and a half before the rest of the workforce.


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    #35
    tommyfitz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭tommyfitz


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Right, you should not be asked to take another hit for the moment I think. But some of your co-workers are paid stupid salaries and you owe it to yourself to identify those you work with that are paid trophy salaries without having to deliver any results and put them out there for us all to see.
    I'm the only clerical person in my section, the rest are medical scientists.
    Some of them are obsessed with getting more money for doing the same work. They werent on strike today because their union didnt sanction strike. I didnt vote for strike but had no option but to lose a days pay. Looks like another strike coming up next week.
    I clock in every day but they can go and come as they please and 2 or 3 of them do. Also the attitude to taking sick days is disgusting by some of them. Its seen as a perk.


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    #36
    Diom
    Registered Users Posts: 438 ✭✭Diom


    tommyfitz wrote: »
    Im a public servant for 5 years and my salary is 26k as a clerical officer.
    I worked for 25 years in the private sector. The company I worked for, closed down at the height of the so-called Celtic Tiger. Am I overpaid?
    Im not permanent and can be let go in the morning. I have taken 2 sick days in last 5 years.
    All I read about in the Sunday Independent is what a burden I am on this country. Its Tony O'Reilly and his cronies that are behind all this rubbish that is printed in papers. Divide ordinary working people and make sure the RICH get away with every mistake they make in propertry and investments in banks.

    Sorry Tommy, but it has absolutely nothing to do with how deserving you personally are. The money for your salary is accountable to the public, and they deserve excellent value.
    You are a clerical officer right? That job requires few enough skills so I'd imagine as long as your competent and switched on. Even still I wouldn't say you're over-paid, not right now. In fact for a man of your experience this is the kind of good value I would like to see across the board.
    My problem is with people in your position who get 40+k for simply being "senior".


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    #37
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I can't speak for where you work, but promotion within the whole civil service is on the basis of seniority. There is no appitite for improving the level of the service offered to the public unless the whole thing has been discussed at partnership level and a figure/salary increase has been attached to the change required. Go into any public office in town, just for example the CRO, they open at 9:30AM and close at 4:30PM, Monday-Friday...

    http://www.cro.ie/ena/about-cro-opening-hours.aspx

    These people start a half an hour after the rest of the workforce and finish an hour and a half before the rest of the workforce.
    Where I work, promotions are on competitive interview.
    In my experience I haven't witnessed a change/improvement that was accompanied by salary increase.
    Some public offices mightn't open till 9.30, BUT there is work to be done behind the scenes you know.


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    #38
    gollem_1975
    Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭gollem_1975


    tommyfitz wrote: »
    Im a public servant for 5 years and my salary is 26k as a clerical officer.
    I worked for 25 years in the private sector. The company I worked for, closed down at the height of the so-called Celtic Tiger. Am I overpaid?
    Im not permanent and can be let go in the morning. I have taken 2 sick days in last 5 years.
    All I read about in the Sunday Independent is what a burden I am on this country. Its Tony O'Reilly and his cronies that are behind all this rubbish that is printed in papers. Divide ordinary working people and make sure the RICH get away with every mistake they make in propertry and investments in banks.

    I have heard it said that at lower paid levels there is an even higher premium paid to people working in the public service over the people working in the private sector.

    the government and all the opposition parties say that the public sector wage bill needs to be reduced.

    you say yourself you are not permanent, therefore you may be let go in the morning so that your permanent colleagues get to keep their present salary levels ?

    i think it would be preferable for there to be reductions in pay rather than redundancies.


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    #39
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I can't speak for where you work, but promotion within the whole civil service is on the basis of seniority.

    Not true. You are a long way out of date on that.
    ... Go into any public office in town, just for example the CRO, they open at 9:30AM and close at 4:30PM, Monday-Friday...

    http://www.cro.ie/ena/about-cro-opening-hours.aspx

    These people start a half an hour after the rest of the workforce and finish an hour and a half before the rest of the workforce.

    The hours for public access to offices are not the same as the working hours for the staff.


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    #40
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    imme wrote: »
    Where I work, promotions are on competitive interview.
    In my experience I haven't witnessed a change/improvement that was accompanied by salary increase.
    Some public offices mightn't open till 9.30, BUT there is work to be done behind the scenes you know.

    Again, I can't speak for where you work, maybe its an exception to the general rule, but for the vast majority of public sector posts, promotion is on seniority, for example 3rd level entities, schools, civil service, etc...


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    #41
    tommyfitz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭tommyfitz


    gollem_1975 wrote: »
    I have heard it said that at lower paid levels there is an even higher premium paid to people working in the public service over the people working in the private sector.

    the government and all the opposition parties say that the public sector wage bill needs to be reduced.

    you say yourself you are not permanent, therefore you may be let go in the morning so that your permanent colleagues get to keep their present salary levels ?

    i think it would be preferable for there to be reductions in pay rather than redundancies.
    Unfortunately temporary people like me will be the ones to lose their jobs so those higher up can keep their big salaries.


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    #42
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Not true. You are a long way out of date on that.



    The hours for public access to offices are not the same as the working hours for the staff.

    You see this is more of it again... The focus is yet again on the employee and not the customer... The customer loses 2 hours of access to services a day so that the employee gets to do the minimum of work.

    In the private sector, the doors stay open from 9AM until 6PM, often until 9PM and also during weekends, and people do what they have to do to keep the doors open to the customer and turn a few bob...

    Honestly, I've never been more convinced that you people in the public sector, you just don't understand how the world is currently turning in the real market and the real economy... Sometimes I get angry about this and other times I just accept it because you guys just don't know any other way of doing things other than the way you know how to do it in your insulated working environment and I mean this genuinely.... It's like wanting to kick your new dog for sh*tting on your new carpet, you don't do it because you know the poor dog just doesn't get the problem...


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    #43
    tommyfitz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭tommyfitz


    Diom wrote: »
    Sorry Tommy, but it has absolutely nothing to do with how deserving you personally are. The money for your salary is accountable to the public, and they deserve excellent value.
    You are a clerical officer right? That job requires few enough skills so I'd imagine as long as your competent and switched on. Even still I wouldn't say you're over-paid, not right now. In fact for a man of your experience this is the kind of good value I would like to see across the board.
    My problem is with people in your position who get 40+k for simply being "senior".
    When I joined public sector, my 25 years work in private sector was totally disregarded. Yet a postman can carry his public sector years service with him into HSE or any County Council. The same applies to Aer Lingus employees. I know 2 people who did this. But neither An Post, Aer Lingus or ESB Workers were targeted by Pension levy. Why?


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    #44
    Wheety
    Registered Users Posts: 5,512 ✭✭✭Wheety


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Again, I can't speak for where you work, maybe its an exception to the general rule, but for the vast majority of public sector posts, promotion is on seniority, for example 3rd level entities, schools, civil service, etc...

    You are just wrong on this point, well as far as the Civil Service is concerned anyway.

    In the Civil Service you have to do an exam and then an interview if you're going for promotion.


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    #45
    Wheety
    Registered Users Posts: 5,512 ✭✭✭Wheety


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    You see this is more of it again... The focus is yet again on the employee and not the customer... The customer loses 2 hours of access to services a day so that the employee gets to do the minimum of work.

    In the private sector, the doors stay open from 9AM until 6PM, often until 9PM and also during weekends, and people do what they have to do to keep the doors open to the customer and turn a few bob...

    Honestly, I've never been more convinced that you people in the public sector, you just don't understand how the world is currently turning in the real market and the real economy... Sometimes I get angry about this and other times I just accept it because you guys just don't know any other way of doing things other than the way you know how to do it in your insulated working environment and I mean this genuinely.... It's like wanting to kick your new dog for sh*tting on your new carpet, you don't do it because you know the poor dog just doesn't get the problem...

    In what area of the private sector are you talking about?

    Banks open 10-4 in general.


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    #46
    zootroid
    Registered Users Posts: 784 ✭✭✭zootroid


    SouthEast wrote: »
    Your right, in fairness, the recession is all their fault:rolleyes:

    I disagree with comments like this. First of all, there are numerous groups who played a role in Ireland's current problems. For example, where was the financial regulator (public sector) when it was supposed to be keeping an eye on the banks? It is easy to simply blame the banks, politicians and property developers, but people still bought into the property boom because of their own greed. (I'm not saying banks and property developers should be absolved of any blame, just that there was more than factor to the problems we currently face).

    Secondly, saying the recession "is not our fault" is irrelevant. The country is borrowing heavily to spend money it hasn't got. This has to stop, and making cuts to the public sector pay bill is just one area where this can be done.

    Of course I feel for ordinary workers at the lower end of the scale, and also feel that those earning more (especially politicians) should have their pay reduced before anybody else. But this won't solve all our problems either.


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    #47
    graduate
    Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭graduate


    promotion is on seniority, for example 3rd level entities,

    I don't know about ITs, but this is not true academics at Universities. Promotion requires a good performance in research etc. Some people never proceed beyond the grade they enter at. Do you actually know anything about "3rd level entities" or are you just making it up as you go along, like the government.


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    #48
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    You see this is more of it again... The focus is yet again on the employee and not the customer... The customer loses 2 hours of access to services a day so that the employee gets to do the minimum of work.

    In the private sector, the doors stay open from 9AM until 6PM, often until 9PM and also during weekends, and people do what they have to do to keep the doors open to the customer and turn a few bob...

    Banks are in the private sector; they don't keep the doors open for the hours you describe.


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    #49
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Again, I can't speak for where you work, maybe its an exception to the general rule, but for the vast majority of public sector posts, promotion is on seniority, for example 3rd level entities, schools, civil service, etc...

    You can scrap the civil service from that list because promotion in the civil service is based on a competitive selection process and has nothing to do with seniority.


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    #50
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    doc_17 wrote: »
    I agree. Although it does come through as jealousy from some. No public servant should be earning more than 100k

    How many public servants are earning over that?


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    #51
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I can't speak for where you work, but promotion within the whole civil service is on the basis of seniority. There is no appitite for improving the level of the service offered to the public unless the whole thing has been discussed at partnership level and a figure/salary increase has been attached to the change required. Go into any public office in town, just for example the CRO, they open at 9:30AM and close at 4:30PM, Monday-Friday...

    http://www.cro.ie/ena/about-cro-opening-hours.aspx

    These people start a half an hour after the rest of the workforce and finish an hour and a half before the rest of the workforce.

    Offices generally stay open to suit demand, they can't please everyone. If they were to operate from 8am to 8pm, they'd need to either pay overtime or employ more staff. You can't have it every way.


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    #52
    gollem_1975
    Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭gollem_1975


    imme wrote: »
    Just when you thought there wasn't enough time or space or words left, well here it is, ANOTHER public sector thread on Boards.ie.
    Boards is a talking shop, right? So, it's fairly representative of society at large. Or is it? I'm pretty new to boards.ie, so wasn't on boards.ie for the Tiger years. Were people on boards.ie as obsessed with house prices/mortgages/child care fees/school fees.
    I do understand the need to reform government (in all it's aspects incl PS reform).
    Anyway the last few months people on Boards.ie seem to be obsessed with the Public Sector, is this a topic du jour or is it from a genuine societal/economic standpoint.

    I'll try and answer your question from the perspective of a long-time lurker :

    there were many discussions during the tiger years on boards.ie ( and other sites ) about the Irish economy

    many of the discussions related to Irelands overdependence on construction and the bubble in the property market.

    eg: check out the housing bubble thread in Accomodation/property

    there were also threads on another site called askaboutmoney.com ( check the great financial debates board ) about the impending bubble which were snaffled and led to the setting up of another site called thepropertypin.com

    I can't recall there being too many discussions about Benchmarking during this period
    I think people did not question/challenge benchmarking with any particular rigour because they themselves were working and earning money.
    In the early 00's there was also a perception that public sector wages were lower than those in the private sector ( the IT and construction booms lead to relatively high wages )

    In recent years it became common knowledge that public sector wage levels are a lot higher then a lot of people originally thought they were. CSO and ESRI figures released over the last few years seem to indicate that people in the public sector are earning more than those in the private sector.

    Boards is akin to a talking shop. people write stuff that they would often not say in a face to face discussion. many people i'm sure are like myself and read the discussions for information/entertainment purposes and don't post very often.

    I don't buy newspapers but I regularly listen to news/current affairs programs on TV and Radio. the discussions on TV and Radio to me appears regularly to have a majority of people on the panel representing sectoral interests such as public service unions, "the vulnerable" or "ordinary working people" ( on the same programs I often hear "the media" accused of stoking the public V private divide so perhaps they are referring to the newspapers )

    During the property boom years there were very few people in the mainstream media that encouraged caution with regard to the housing market. Boards and thepropertypin became for me an "underground" media alternative to the cheerleading in the mainstream media.

    In the context of the latest "topic du jour" the people posting on Boards are expressing ideas that they feel are not being expressed on their behalf in the mainstream media.
    they also probably don't have a union to represent them and don't have much faith in their "elected representatives" to take the hard decisions.

    I hope this goes some way to answering your question


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    #53
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Again, I can't speak for where you work, maybe its an exception to the general rule, but for the vast majority of public sector posts, promotion is on seniority, for example 3rd level entities, schools, civil service, etc...[/quote

    i work in the VEC sector and the principal in one of those schools was 34 when she was appointed. In the loreto in kilkenny the principal is 35. How is that seniority? people need to stop and take a breath and not believe everthing they read in the Sunday Indo. After all what does that group know about running anything? How many millions are in they in debt again?


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    #54
    hawker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 500 ✭✭✭hawker


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I can't speak for where you work, but promotion within the whole civil service is on the basis of seniority. There is no appitite for improving the level of the service offered to the public unless the whole thing has been discussed at partnership level and a figure/salary increase has been attached to the change required. Go into any public office in town, just for example the CRO, they open at 9:30AM and close at 4:30PM, Monday-Friday...

    http://www.cro.ie/ena/about-cro-opening-hours.aspx

    These people start a half an hour after the rest of the workforce and finish an hour and a half before the rest of the workforce.

    I've read several posts by you claiming that the CS promotions are based on seniority. That is simply not true. This is just typical of the out-dated views people have on the PS service as a whole. I think you'll find that ridding the PS of seniority was part of one the the national agreements. Perhaps 7/8 years ago at this stage.

    It's probably better for all if you just deal in fact instead of what your 'friends' tell you.


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    #55
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Banks are in the private sector; they don't keep the doors open for the hours you describe.

    You've of course managed to reach to the one exception in the private sector while conveniently ignoring all the other operations that have adapted to the needs of people living in the 21st century.

    As you've mentioned the banking industry, this is one industry that has been completely infiltrated by powerful unions, which might explain exactly what I'm talking about which is the lack of change in favour of the customer.


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    #56
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭doc_17


    brianthebard wrote: »
    How many public servants are earning over that?

    14,000 or around that figure I believe. Too many. I wouldn't touch any public servant earning less than 40k. They have made their contribution already with the pension levy and the other levies.


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    #57
    Wheety
    Registered Users Posts: 5,512 ✭✭✭Wheety


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    You've of course managed to reach to the one exception in the private sector while conveniently ignoring all the other operations that have adapted to the needs of people living in the 21st century.

    As you've mentioned the banking industry, this is one industry that has been completely infiltrated by powerful unions, which might explain exactly what I'm talking about which is the lack of change in favour of the customer.

    So what are you talking about then?


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    #58
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    You've of course managed to reach to the one exception in the private sector while conveniently ignoring all the other operations that have adapted to the needs of people living in the 21st century.

    As you've mentioned the banking industry, this is one industry that has been completely infiltrated by powerful unions, which might explain exactly what I'm talking about which is the lack of change in favour of the customer.

    Well, all you gave us was the Companies Registration Office. Providing public access is not a core activity of the CRO. You can find libraries open in the evening.

    My GP (private sector) does not provide evening cover; the local hospital (public sector) does.


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    #59
    themusicman
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭themusicman


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    You see this is more of it again... The focus is yet again on the employee and not the customer... The customer loses 2 hours of access to services a day so that the employee gets to do the minimum of work.

    In the private sector, the doors stay open from 9AM until 6PM, often until 9PM and also during weekends, and people do what they have to do to keep the doors open to the customer and turn a few bob...

    Honestly, I've never been more convinced that you people in the public sector, you just don't understand how the world is currently turning in the real market and the real economy... Sometimes I get angry about this and other times I just accept it because you guys just don't know any other way of doing things other than the way you know how to do it in your insulated working environment and I mean this genuinely.... It's like wanting to kick your new dog for sh*tting on your new carpet, you don't do it because you know the poor dog just doesn't get the problem...

    Regarding the opening hours.....I went to the bank today at 12.45 and discovered it closed. Opening hours Mon to Fri except Wed 10.00 to 12.30, 1.30 to 400. Opens at 10.30 on Wed for staff training. If we are throwing insults around can we be fair and accurate please


  • Options
    #60
    boodlesdoodles
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭boodlesdoodles


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    You've of course managed to reach to the one exception in the private sector while conveniently ignoring all the other operations that have adapted to the needs of people living in the 21st century.

    As you've mentioned the banking industry, this is one industry that has been completely infiltrated by powerful unions, which might explain exactly what I'm talking about which is the lack of change in favour of the customer.

    Can I address your point about addressing the needs of people in the 21st century? My brother recently had to file his IT returns, he did it online and would you believe that the ROS helpline was open until midnight of the 16th Nov to allow those submitting returns at the very last minute (which my bro was one of :rolleyes:). Now this is a Revenue office and there they are working beyond normal working hours? Explain how this isn't addressing public needs and adapting to technological changes?

    As far as I can see those in the private sector that you talk about stay open because they are in sales etc. Public sector offices are manned in person by people who also have to do the paper work behind the scenes and due to retirements etc their numbers have dropped. Can't understand why its perfectly acceptable for the banks only to open at 10, not til 11 or 12 some days for 'training' and close at 4 but when the public sector do it they're perceived as sitting on their hands. No pleasing some people.


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    #61
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    imme wrote: »
    Putting petrol on a fire makes it take off surely? The economy is actually contracting, the government better watch out they contract it further.

    That was precisely my point.

    If you're trying to put out a fire, you don't use petrol.
    If you're trying to stop an economy contracting, you don't add higher taxes.

    Anyway, these PubS v PriS threads are already completely boring.
    We've been through the mill with this topic in recent weeks/months.

    Do you have an answer as to how we generate an extra €25 billion per year, so as to avoid cuts in PS/Social/Other?
    I don't believe you.

    What happens if we don't implement cuts?
    Debt trap/wipeout

    What is the only course of action?
    Cuts

    /thread


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