Boards.ie is obsessed with the Public Sector

Darragh29

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

Can I address your point about addressing the needs of people in the 21st century? My brother recently had to file his IT returns, he did it online and would you believe that the ROS helpline was open until midnight of the 16th Nov to allow those submitting returns at the very last minute (which my bro was one of :rolleyes:). Now this is a Revenue office and there they are working beyond normal working hours? Explain how this isn't addressing public needs and adapting to technological changes?

As far as I can see those in the private sector that you talk about stay open because they are in sales etc. Public sector offices are manned in person by people who also have to do the paper work behind the scenes and due to retirements etc their numbers have dropped. Can't understand why its perfectly acceptable for the banks only to open at 10, not til 11 or 12 some days for 'training' and close at 4 but when the public sector do it they're perceived as sitting on their hands. No pleasing some people.

I never said it was acceptable for the banks to be operating the same openng hours as they did back in the 19th century. I said the reason they do is because they are highly unionised. I accept that some change from the public sector has happened but it isn't enough and it needs to happen in the future without money always having to be put on the table...

brianthebard

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

That was precisely my point.

If you're trying to put out a fire, you don't use petrol.
If you're trying to stop an economy contracting, you don't add higher taxes.

Or to put it another way, to stop an economy contracting, you don't cut peoples' disposable income, decreasing the amount of money being spent. :rolleyes:

Stheno

tommyfitz wrote: »

But neither An Post, Aer Lingus or ESB Workers were targeted by Pension levy. Why?

Isn't Aer Lingus now a publicly traded company and no longer under State ownership? The govt have a stake in it, but that's all so that's not part of the Public Sector.

An Post and ESB are commercial semi states, and afaik, the levy didn't apply to the Commercial Semi states.

It's part of the problem imo about these debates, people don't always realise how diverse the Public Sector is and how many different bodies/groups are in it, e.g the likes of the Civil Service/HSE/Gardai which are all necessary functions of government, regulatory bodies, Commercial Semi States, non- Commercial Semi states, there is a pretty broad range of different groups there.

Also the Commercial Semi States were one of the groups who were not striking today iirc.

halkar

Up until 2 years ago, one had to use search link to find words "Public Sector" :rolleyes:

tommyfitz

nouggatti wrote: »

Isn't Aer Lingus now a publicly traded company and no longer under State ownership? The govt have a stake in it, but that's all so that's not part of the Public Sector.

An Post and ESB are commercial semi states, and afaik, the levy didn't apply to the Commercial Semi states.

It's part of the problem imo about these debates, people don't always realise how diverse the Public Sector is and how many different bodies/groups are in it, e.g the likes of the Civil Service/HSE/Gardai which are all necessary functions of government, regulatory bodies, Commercial Semi States, non- Commercial Semi states, there is a pretty broad range of different groups there.

Also the Commercial Semi States were one of the groups who were not striking today iirc.

Yes I know An Post are semi state, thats my point. Why are people from semi state companies allowed carry service and pay scales into Public Sector????

Dannyboy83

brianthebard wrote: »

Or to put it another way, to stop an economy contracting, you don't cut peoples' disposable income, decreasing the amount of money being spent. :rolleyes:

Indeed, but as we've no doubt established 1.5 million times by now, there is an order of priority.
(NESF had two huge posts on the subject 2 weeks ago
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62990223&postcount=21
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62990466&postcount=22
),

Is a €4 Billion cut going to affect disposable incomes? Unquestionably
Is this budget going to be deflationary? Unquestionably.
Is it the right thing to do? Unquestionably
Is it the only thing we can do? Considering we don't have savings, unquestionably.

Why?
Because we have 2003 income levels and 2007 expenditure levels.
If we don't reduce our debt, we get caught in a debt trap.
50% of the projected 4 billion cuts in December 2009 will be used to pay interest alone. We need to reduce the capital sum of the debt, not just the interest.

What is the benefit?
Stuff gets cheaper, smaller salaries buy the same stuff. Public sector reform forces private sector reform. The demise of the Rip Off Republic.
We become more competitive. We don't go bankrupt.
Confidence returns to the economy. People start spending a little more.
We trade. We come out of recession.
We create jobs and get people off social welfare. We widen the tax nets.
Our debt starts to go down two fold.
By 2016, our GDP returns to 2007 levels.

What is the proposed alternative?
Hike tax some more.

What is the result of further tax hikes?
The economy contracts, meaning the pool of money used to pay the public sector gets smaller, while our debt continues to grow larger.
Income contracts, Expenditure remain constant.
Cost of borrowing increases exponentially/simultaneously with risk.

What is that result of this:
Debt Trap/Bankruptcy/ECB kick us out of EMU/IMF shut down the country

Is there a third way?
Ich bin alle Ohren


Solution: Establish a Priority
High Priority: Reduce expenditure via cuts to match income, now.
Low Priority: When we come out of recession, widen the tax base, later.

Short term pain, long term gain.


There is nothing new in anything I've written above. This has all been established a long time ago. On this forum. Yet we are still going round and round in the same circles.

If anyone has anything new they would like to offer, I'm all ears.
Honestly tho, I doubt anyone does.

I cannot wait until the government implement these cuts, simply so we can move on from this boring topic/forgone conclusion, which seeps into every thread and we can all stop bickering and get back to planning the demise of the people responsible for all of this, Fianna Failure.

brianthebard

Oh I see, its all about TINA. Never mind the rammifications of the deflationary budget which you advocate. Its amazing that you seem to hate FF and yet want to employ their policies-very odd.

lmimmfn

brianthebard wrote: »

Or to put it another way, to stop an economy contracting, you don't cut peoples' disposable income, decreasing the amount of money being spent. :rolleyes:

nah, you just spread the problem to the private sector who are losing jobs at an alarming rate and help make it all worse, great stuff, hope you'll be smiling at us all when were all on the dole.

Dont tax me, i cost a fortune and have next to 0 chance of losing my job, tax those guys, theyre f***** anyway.

brianthebard

lmimmfn wrote: »

nah, you just spread the problem to the private sector who are losing jobs at an alarming rate and help make it all worse, great stuff, hope you'll be smiling at us all when were all on the dole.

Who's you and us? I'm an unemployed student. How does it 'spread the problem'? Is this really the basis for boards general complaints about the public sector, make them take cuts so you don't have to? How generous of you. I see now why there's such hysterics on the topic.

lmimmfn

brianthebard wrote: »

Who's you and us? I'm an unemployed student. How does it 'spread the problem'? Is this really the basis for boards general complaints about the public sector, make them take cuts so you don't have to? How generous of you. I see now why there's such hysterics on the topic.

No my wife works in the PS, im extremely happy if she takes a cut to reduce the economic burden and shes on min PS salary, so you neednt come to me with the "how generous of me" comments, the country is verging on bankruptcy and those idiots on strike or shopping today couldnt give a $hit.

Stheno

tommyfitz wrote: »

Yes I know An Post are semi state, thats my point. Why are people from semi state companies allowed carry service and pay scales into Public Sector????

I assume because they ARE part of the Public Sector, but another group/division in the Public Sector, much like County Council Employees?

That's my point, lots of different groups comprise the Public Sector, not all of them pay the Pension levy, and not all of them were striking today.

So today imo was a strike in parts of the public sector but not all.
The Pension levy affects some of the Public Sector but not all, usually in that case, it seems the area it doesn't affect is the profitable semi states paying a dividend to the government which in some cases at least would be worth more than the levy and they appear to manage their own pensions, e.g. ESB, Bord na Mona.

Dannyboy83

brianthebard wrote: »

Oh I see, its all about TINA. Never mind the rammifications of the deflationary budget which you advocate. Its amazing that you seem to hate FF and yet want to employ their policies-very odd.

So you don't have an alternative way out then I take it?

brianthebard

There are plenty of alternatives.

Dannyboy83

brianthebard wrote: »

There are plenty of alternatives.

Great.
I'd like to know what they are please.

Fire away when ready.

Dr_Phil

bridgitt wrote: »

There is a huge amount of justifiable anger at those who have secure, well paid , well pensioned work and who are striking.

Yeah! Right! Pay them nothing!

Treat your cancer yourself, give birth in a barn, buy the medical equipment for what you saved on "their" salaries, teach your kids at home, when your house goes on fire don't grab a phone but a bucket of water.. And when you get robbed don't call the Gards but moan to your neighbour.

Shame on Irish civil servants, taking money for nothing!!!

Burn them, burn them all!!!

jimmycrackcorm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Banks are in the private sector; they don't keep the doors open for the hours you describe.

Banks are unionised workplaces as is the public service - get the connection?

jimmycrackcorm

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Yeah! Right! Pay them nothing!

Treat your cancer yourself, give birth in a barn, buy the medical equipment for what you saved on "their" salaries, teach your kids at home,
....

No just pay people at a realistic level that can be afforded.

Where's benchmarking when we really need it....

brianthebard

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Great.
I'd like to know what they are please.

Fire away when ready.

:rolleyes:
Take a look outside the FF walls.

Dannyboy83

brianthebard wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Take a look outside the FF walls.

So I take it you don't have any alternatives then?

Dr_Phil

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

No just pay people at a realistic level that can be afforded.

Where's benchmarking when we really need it....

My wife is on 27k (before tax and 10% paycut) a year, working 39h/week+weekends+Christmas+New Year+BH.

One of her duties in Health Service is to bring dead infants to the morgue or provide morphine and watch them die - if unfortunately there is nothing that can be done to save their lives. You can't now how many nights she cried...

If some of the whinging morons is gonna tell me, that she should get another paycut to be "at a realistic level" - I have to warn you, but I'm gonna snap - which most likely will result with a ban for an insult.

lmimmfn

boo hoo, people are complaining about the public sector, aww, my heart bleeds.

Dr_Phil wrote: »

My wife is on 27k (before tax and 10% paycut) a year, working 39h/week+weekends+Christmas+New Year+BH.

One of her duties in Health Service is to bring dead infants to the morgue or provide morphine and watch them die - if unfortunately there is nothing that can be done to save their lives. You can't now how many nights she cried...

If some of the whinging morons is gonna tell me, that she should get another paycut to be "at a realistic level" - I have to warn you, but I'm gonna snap - which most likely will result with a ban for an insult.

Im sure there are plenty on the dole that would do your wifes job no problem for less( im sorry its a horrible job, im just saying its a job )

Dr_Phil

lmimmfn wrote: »

boo hoo, people are complaining about the public sector, aww, my heart bleeds.



Im sure there are plenty on the dole that would do your wifes job no problem for less( im sorry its a horrible job, im just saying its a job )

Going your way I'm sure there are plenty of kids in Africa who could survive a month for what average Irish person spends in the pub over the weekend.

And which people on the dole are you talking about, the same who get thousands in benefits for staying in bed until 12, as there's really no point to get up and go to work (confirmed by many, laughing at fools who work and pay taxes)?

Anyway, saying that everybody in PS gets paid some incredible money for nothing is an utter bull**** and witch hunt. Immigrants, public sector workers, bankers - everyone is to blame but yourselves.

Scary, big time.

lmimmfn

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Going your way I'm sure there are plenty of kids in Africa who could survive a month for what average Irish person spends in the pub over the weekend.

And which people on the dole are you talking about, the same who get thousands in benefits for staying in bed until 12, as there's really no point to get up and go to work (confirmed by many, laughing at fools who work and pay taxes)?

Anyway, saying that everybody in PS gets paid some incredible money for nothing is an utter bull**** and witch hunt. Immigrants, public sector workers, bankers - everyone is to blame but yourselves.

Scary, big time.

nah, man you got me wrong, my only gripe with the PS is that its currently unsustainable, seriously it is.
I also have a wife in the PS, earning less than your wife, thankfully not doing the same horrible job as your wife has to do, but the cuts in the PS arent to cripple the lower paid, there are tossers in the PS on 100,000euro or 200,000 euro, the cuts were supposed to be the average, not that they would affect everyone at the same level.

The problem in general is that PS want to shift the burden to the private sector, crippling us who can lose our job anytime( and thats an understatement ), its absolutely infuriating to think theres such an imbalance yet the country can be held completely to ranson at a whim.

Im not standing for it and neither is my wife.

Youre right though, everyone blames the next guy, however during the celtic tiger times, i never spent on crap, didnt buy into the property bubble, never bought anything on credit, even my cars i bought with cash. Im a cheap skate lol, but still im to be crippled to keep this happy ship afloat? not on your nelly.

baalthor

gollem_1975 wrote: »

I can't recall there being too many discussions about Benchmarking during this period

Around the turn of the century there was a lot of discussion re benchmarking and public/private on the Irish Times discussion forum

I remember teachers (or at least people claiming to be teachers) arguing along the following lines:
"I taught Johnny for five years, he was a complete bowsy but now he's a computer programmer earning the big bucks. Without my teaching Johnny would be nowhere so I deserve my cut"

I guess after the .com bubble burst the argument stayed the same but Johnny's occupation changed from programmer to brickie.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If anyone has anything new they would like to offer, I'm all ears.
Honestly tho, I doubt anyone does.

Well Danny, interesting as your plan is, I fear you might have been unduly influenced by Sir Anthony and the gang at the Sindo.
To gain a different perspective, I listened to Matt Cooper this evening and to the economic proposals but forward by one of his guests - a member of the teaching profession.
Now I don't know if he had the misfortune to teach poor Johnny (probably trying to get a visa for Australia now) but he was thinking outside his box.

His proposal to solve our economic woes was as follows:

During the boom we had revenues of €57bn and expenditure of €57 - happiness

Now we have revenues of €34bn and expenditure of €57bn - misery

So to get back on track all we need to do is raise taxes so that revenue is €60bn - voila problem solved !
(I guess the additional €3bn is for the little extras)

So all you Sindo brain-washed PubSec bashers, here we have an alternative proposal from a public sector worker. I think we should run with this and see how we get on. Of course I may not get to experience the undoubted beneficial results at first hand as Johnny and I will be in Sydney opening a few tinnies over the barbie (as I believe they say in the antipodes) but we'll definitely be thinking of you guys back in dear old Ireland.:)

Dr_Phil

lmimmfn wrote: »

there are tossers in the PS on 100,000euro or 200,000 euro

Dear Lord, its the same in the place I work...

I'd totally support the idea of taking even 30% of their salaries, cause they still survive on 70k/year.

My only concern is that people don't say precisley what "levels" they're talking about but just a PS.. I know a lot of people doing PS jobs for small money, and I have to admit they do a damn good, hard work. It's simply unfair to bring them to the same level with the fat cats on 100k and more..

Thanks for clarifying your perspective and all the best to your wife.


As for spending: I never got any credits as well. I was saving, saving, saving just to buy my first house (I hope all will be closed by end of the year). But I have to pay for the Celtic Tiger, my wife does.. Just tough luck, think "Solidarity". That was one of the reasons what made Ireland to succeed in the past.

lmimmfn

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Dear Lord, its the same in the place I work...

I'd totally support the idea of taking even 30% of their salaries, cause they still survive on 70k/year.

I'd just say that people don't say precisley what "levels" they're talking about but just a PS.. I know a lot of people doing PS jobs for small money, and I have to admit they do a damn good, hard work. It's simply unfair to bring them to the same level with the fat cats on 100k and more..

Thanks for clarifying your perspective and all the best to your wife.

Ahh no no probs, i come across as hardcore, but only where its unfair, i really dont have anything( bigtime 0 ) against those on the minimum( in fact im i fell the opposite that it takes ages to get on anything decent in the PS unless ), its just the way it works, its the pay scale for different qualified areas/overtime nonsense and all the extra income benefits crap. The **** doing nothing and earning a fortune.

Im sure im not the only one who paints the PS with the same brush but the others also arent on about the lower paid, how could you if you can earn 20K a year working in Micky D's?.

Theres an insane difference between earning 45-50k in the PS and the same in the private sector due to security and benefits. What really riles me is most of those out on strike today would have been the lower paid( who were only going to have a min hit anyway ), while the fat cats do feck all and hope that the lower earners protect them. A bloody disgrace and im surprised the lower PS stand for that. Again a big win for the fat cat union leaders and PS workers, arrgghhh, theyre taking the piss out of the system and using the poor unfortunete lower paid to do their bidding for them, grrrrr.

Cheers on the last comment and the same regards to your wife and tell her people can only hope to understand how painful it must be to do her job, also let her know that public opinion isint attacking her in anyway shape or form.

Dannyboy83

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Dear Lord, its the same in the place I work...

I'd totally support the idea of taking even 30% of their salaries, cause they still survive on 70k/year.

I'd just say that people don't say precisley what "levels" they're talking about but just a PS.. I know a lot of people doing PS jobs for small money, and I have to admit they do a damn good, hard work. It's simply unfair to bring them to the same level with the fat cats on 100k and more..

Thanks for clarifying your perspective and all the best to your wife.

The problem people fundamentally ignore with this higher tax suggestion.

PubSecEmployee A earns €60,000 p/a Gross
€35,000@22% - tax credits = approx €29,000 net
€25,000@45% = approx €13,750 net
===
Total net: €42,750


PubSecEmployee B earns €100,000 p/a Gross
€35,000@22% - tax credits= approx €29,000 net
€65,000@45% = approx €35,000 net
====
Net: €64,000 Less 30% Wealth tax = (€64,000 /10)*3=
Total net: €44,800

Depends where you apply that 30% of course, is it 30% on gross or net.
Anyway, point remains the same.

aftermn

Good luck to you all, public and private.

The next few months will be difficult and don't be surprised if we have a supplementary budget in summer.

Dr_Phil

lmimmfn wrote: »

Cheers on the last comment.......

I really appreciate it.

gollem_1975

baalthor wrote: »

Around the turn of the century there was a lot of discussion re benchmarking and public/private on the Irish Times discussion forum

ah yes, I wasn't even aware of online forums around the turn of the century ( even though I worked in IT )

I do remember that the Irish times used to have a page and a half of "computer" jobs though ... in the days before IT recruitment went online.

those were the days....