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Boards.ie is obsessed with the Public Sector

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    #182
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    imme wrote: »
    yeah no I get that, but why do people start so many multiple threads. Has the govt won?; have the unions won?; did Cowen cave in?; what's the answer?

    Question: What else does the govt have planned other than pay cuts and social welfare cuts. Have they any stimulus plans?

    Because there's no hard details and loads of speculation. Because so many people thinks their opinion will be lost if appended to an existing thread. Because there is high unemployment, looming social welfare cuts, looming tax increases etc and the unions are still trying to maintain that pay cuts are completely out of the question.

    People are pissed off, there's going to be a load of threads. If you don't like this I'd advise ignoring any politics forum until after the New Year when hopefully some other topic will dominate things but right now, it's the public pay question that's dominating headlines and dominating rants. Not a whole lot to be gained by complaining about it, it's just human nature to find a scapegoat and the unions right now are doing an excellent job of painting a big target symbol on the public sector who in fairness are being unfairly tarred with the same brush as the unions.


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    #183
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    lmimmfn wrote: »
    public sector not budging on their pay even though we cannot afford those costs, meaning they'd prefer we're all taxed to pay that which we cannot afford, nah, why would anyone be pissed at the PS?

    You can't be taxed on what you don't earn. So someone earning 40k in both sectors should in theory be able to afford the same things. If (and its a big if) you ignore the pension.


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    #184
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    nesf wrote: »
    Because there's no hard details and loads of speculation. Because so many people thinks their opinion will be lost if appended to an existing thread. Because there is high unemployment, looming social welfare cuts, looming tax increases etc and the unions are still trying to maintain that pay cuts are completely out of the question.

    Bascially the country is bunched...


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    #185
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    BostonB wrote: »
    You can't be taxed on what you don't earn. So someone earning 40k in both sectors should in theory be able to afford the same things. If (and its a big if) you ignore the pension.
    I dont get you? why wouldnt they be able to afford the same thing? if youre saying that they could afford the same thing but if the PS had to take a cut then the PS guy couldnt then thats grand, that person is most likely on too much money.

    The guy in the private sector who was getting 40k is probably on the dole now and the guy in the PS has his 40k and wants a reduced private sector to pay for keeping it via increaed taxes.

    And cmon, you cant ignore the pension lol
    nesf wrote: »
    People are pissed off, there's going to be a load of threads. If you don't like this I'd advise ignoring any politics forum until after the New Year when hopefully some other topic will dominate things but right now, it's the public pay question that's dominating headlines and dominating rants. Not a whole lot to be gained by complaining about it, it's just human nature to find a scapegoat and the unions right now are doing an excellent job of painting a big target symbol on the public sector who in fairness are being unfairly tarred with the same brush as the unions.
    at least the threads give us a place to vent :)


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    #186
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    lmimmfn wrote: »
    I dont get you? why wouldnt they be able to afford the same thing? if youre saying that they could afford the same thing but if the PS had to take a cut then the PS guy couldnt then thats grand, that person is most likely on too much money.

    My point is that what you can afford to pay in tax is related to how much you get paid. Not which sector you are in.
    lmimmfn wrote: »
    The guy in the private sector who was getting 40k is probably on the dole now and the guy in the PS has his 40k and wants a reduced private sector to pay for keeping it via increaed taxes.

    Everyone in the Private sector isn't on the dole.

    If taxes increase the public sector guys 40k will reduce, he pays tax the same as the private guy.
    lmimmfn wrote: »
    And cmon, you cant ignore the pension lol

    Its just easier to deal with wages and pension seperately.

    They are obviously interwoven.


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    #187
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    BostonB wrote: »
    Bascially the country is bunched...

    The herd(s) have spoken/bleated, etc.


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    #188
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    BostonB wrote: »
    My point is that what you can afford to pay in tax is related to how much you get paid. Not which sector you are in.
    so i should pay taxes to keep the insane public sector cost? of course the sector matters, PS dont contribute to the economy tax intake, private sector are the only contributor, the PS stuff is just borrowing Peter to pay Paul


    BostonB wrote: »
    Everyone in the Private sector isn't on the dole.
    no but theres 200,000 extra of them, how many from the public sector permanent staff are now on the dole?
    BostonB wrote: »
    If taxes increase the public sector guys 40k will reduce, he pays tax the same as the private guy.
    and rather than the PS guy on 40k taking a 3% hit, both private sector and public sector take a 1.5% each to keep out public sector cost unnecessarily high


    BostonB wrote: »
    Its just easier to deal with wages and pension seperately.

    They are obviously interwoven.
    No really, big difference between a guy in the private sector who gets 0 pension contribution from his employer and a person in the public sector that gets an effective 22% pension contribution per year( to total the amount necessary for an 80% salary pension at retirement age )

    So the guy on 40k in the private sector with his 0% employer pension contribution is effectively on 31,200Euro compared to the public sector guy. Even the most lavish private sector pensions will only have a 12% employer contribution, meaning the employee has to make up the extra 10%


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    #189
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    nesf wrote: »
    The herd(s) have spoken/bleated, etc.

    Did I run over your cat or something? :rolleyes:


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    #190
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    lmimmfn wrote: »
    so i should pay taxes to keep the insane public sector cost? of course the sector matters, PS dont contribute to the economy tax intake, private sector are the only contributor, the PS stuff is just borrowing Peter to pay Paul

    So how do goods and people get to a shop. Roads. Who maintains the roads. Who cleans the roads? Who goes to accidents on the road. Who polices the road. Who stops people from robbing your shop etc. The country doesn't run itself.
    lmimmfn wrote: »
    no but theres 200,000 extra of them, how many from the public sector permanent staff are now on the dole?

    How many in the private sector aren't on the dole. 1.8 million? (Guesstimate) Who pays the people on the dole, who checks they should get the dole, who manages all of that?
    lmimmfn wrote: »
    and rather than the PS guy on 40k taking a 3% hit, both private sector and public sector take a 1.5% each to keep out public sector cost unnecessarily high

    How much in tax will we all be paying to bail out the private sector banks? The private sector construction loans, etc. Why should one guy on 40k pay a different tax to another on the same money? I don't dispute that the wage bill is too high. Just that they should be taxed the same.
    lmimmfn wrote: »
    No really, big difference between a guy in the private sector who gets 0 pension contribution from his employer and a person in the public sector that gets an effective 22% pension contribution per year( to total the amount necessary for an 80% salary pension at retirement age )

    So the guy on 40k in the private sector with his 0% employer pension contribution is effectively on 31,200Euro compared to the public sector guy. Even the most lavish private sector pensions will only have a 12% employer contribution, meaning the employee has to make up the extra 10%

    Why compare someone with no pension with someone with a pension. That makes no sense. You aren't going to compare someone working in a shop at the weekend with a senior manager in a big corporate company. Almost half of the private sector have a pension.

    Not everyone in the PS will get a full pension, they won't have full service, 40yrs. How is it 80%.
    Deloitte & Touche for the Sunday Business Post in 2005, compared a private and public sector worker both earning €135,000 per year to see how they fared on retirement income.

    Despite both employees earning the same annual salary of €135,000 and maximum funding, the private sector employee will retire on a significantly lower income.

    The civil servant ended up on a retirement salary of €67,500, while his private sector equivalent ended up earning €57,349.

    The gap between the two is a substantial €10,151 per year.

    Having a good pension in the public sector is a perk that attracts people to it. If the argument is that we can no longer afford to pay such pensions then I don't disagree. But it should be dealt (and cut) seperately from pay IMO.

    But your asking politicians to cut their own pay and pensions. Considering they have no moral dillema about paying themselves multiple pensions, even when they are not retired, and paying themselves vast salaries, far in excess than politicians much bigger countries. They also been doing this for years, and people have been happy to vote them in again and again.

    We didn't get here overnight.


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    #191
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    On the topic of the OP.... I'm bemused by the idea of "Boards.ie" being obsessed with anything. "Boards.ie" is technically a domain, some servers and a bunch of electricity. Its heart is the people who use it to communicate. There are quite a number of them.

    If there are a lot of topics about PS pay etc, its because a lot of regular people are in parts, angry, concerned, annoyed, dismayed, supportive, critical or simply vocal about the topic. Its a big topic for our country right now and so its a big topic for the people using boards.


    I'm just curious what the OP thinks we, I, should "do" about this.... do you have anything in mind?? :rolleyes:

    DeV.


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    #192
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    No really, big difference between a guy in the private sector who gets 0 pension contribution from his employer and a person in the public sector that gets an effective 22% pension contribution per year( to total the amount necessary for an 80% salary pension at retirement age )

    No public servant gets an 80% salary pension at retirement age.

    The problem with this forum is not that topical issues are being talked about, it is that is has turned into a ranting and raving forum rather than a discussion forum and people throw out statements like the one above that represent prejudice rather than fact.


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    #193
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    DeVore wrote: »
    On the topic of the OP.... I'm bemused by the idea of "Boards.ie" being obsessed with anything. "Boards.ie" is technically a domain, some servers and a bunch of electricity. Its heart is the people who use it to communicate. There are quite a number of them.

    If there are a lot of topics about PS pay etc, its because a lot of regular people are in parts, angry, concerned, annoyed, dismayed, supportive, critical or simply vocal about the topic. Its a big topic for our country right now and so its a big topic for the people using boards.


    I'm just curious what the OP thinks we, I, should "do" about this.... do you have anything in mind?? :rolleyes:

    DeV.

    I just ran a basic search using the term "public sector" and found 120 matches. How many threads are there in total on boards.ie? I would like to get an index of this "obsession".


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    #194
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    oooh Mr Data wants unnormalised, unspecific data which incomparable to any other data out there.... why, my pleasure sir! :):p (we're looking to see if anything meaningful can be mined brb)

    DeV.


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    #195
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    The threads here are actually quite civil compared to several other forums.

    One in particular, a non-politics forum, feels like civil war has already broken out, and 2 factions are fighting to the death.


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    #196
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    The threads here are actually quite civil compared to several other forums.

    One in particular, a non-politics forum, feels like civil war has already broken out, and 2 factions are fighting to the death.
    What are the other forums? I could do with a laugh:(
    I didn't say that the threads weren't civil, just that there are tonnes of them, multiplying by the hour.
    A civil war you say, that's a strange term/idea.
    A different person said to me the other day that the current situation was like 'a civil war without the guns'.
    Who would the White Russians and Bolsheviks be, who would the pro-treaty/anti-treaty side be?

    Can a 'civil war' be fought out between leaders (govt/unions), do actual people not have to get involved.


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    #197
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    It would appear that the "actual people" are very much engaged!

    Also, gotta love the distinction between "Gov/Unions" and "actual people".... kinda like Resevoir Dogs "only cops?? no real people???"


    DeV.


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    #198
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    DeVore wrote: »
    It would appear that the "actual people" are very much engaged!

    Also, gotta love the distinction between "Gov/Unions" and "actual people".... kinda like Resevoir Dogs "only cops?? no real people???"


    DeV.
    where are the people engaged?, on here, this a talking shop, nothing will come of anything discussed on here.
    it might make people feel good to get things off their collective chests though.


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    #199
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Flaming_Diving, I think you will like this.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63322910

    Basically it shows that a year ago the number of posts on Boards containing the phrase "Public Sector" over a year ago was hovering around a miniscule amount of about 0.01%.

    In the last 12 months it has risen to a significant 1% of the posts on Boards!

    I'm not sure what that proves other then that the general public has become engaged with the topic but as a great man once said "That is yet another example of something".

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63322910

    DeV.


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    #200
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    imme wrote: »
    where are the people engaged?, on here, this a talking shop, nothing will come of anything discussed on here.
    it might make people feel good to get things off their collective chests though.
    How would you define "engagement" then??

    DeV.


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    #201
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    DeVore wrote: »
    How would you define "engagement" then??

    DeV.
    you said in post 197 that the people were very much engaged, I said I didn't see how.
    if you say people are engaged on boards, well ok then. just doesn't get us anywhere and can be quite reductive, imo.
    engagement could include lobbying of TD's etc; community meetings; public protest.


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    #202
    douglashyde
    Registered Users Posts: 694 ✭✭✭douglashyde


    The Public Sector have an interest group to vent through.

    The people of Ireland don't.
    There is alot of angry among the people of Ireland as the public sector are rotting this country to the core.

    Boards, is one of very few places where the people of Ireland can talk and be heard.


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    #203
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    DeVore wrote: »
    Flaming_Diving, I think you will like this.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63322910

    Basically it shows that a year ago the number of posts on Boards containing the phrase "Public Sector" over a year ago was hovering around a miniscule amount of about 0.01%.

    In the last 12 months it has risen to a significant 1% of the posts on Boards!

    I'm not sure what that proves other then that the general public has become engaged with the topic but as a great man once said "That is yet another example of something".

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63322910

    DeV.
    I feel utterly vindicated.:cool:lol
    What about threads where people say PS or civil service or public servants instead of "Public Sector", as you say that's yet another example of something.


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    #204
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    douglashyde wrote: »
    The Public Sector have an interest group to vent through.

    The people of Ireland don't.
    There is alot of angry among the people of Ireland as the public sector are rotting this country to the core.

    Boards, is one of very few places where the people of Ireland can talk and be heard.
    who is the interest group of the PS?, the unions?, you might be shocked and surprised to learn that not all staff are members of unions.
    What about Joe Duffy, I hear that's all about 'evil PS' the last while.

    I get what you say though Mr. President.


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    #205
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    imme wrote: »
    I feel utterly vindicated.:cool:lol
    What about threads where people say PS or civil service or public servants instead of "Public Sector", as you say that's yet another example of something.

    I dunno but I'm willing to bet it simply enforces the trend.

    I'm not sure why you feel "vindicated" your question was "is this the topic du jour or is it from a genuine societal/economic standpoint".

    It would appear it is not "topic du jour". It might qualify as "topic du an" as it appears to have jumped to the fore sometime in Jan this year.

    Either way, I dont see how you can claim "vindication" as such... what do you feel vinidicated about?

    DeV.


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    #206
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    DeVore wrote: »
    I dunno but I'm willing to bet it simply enforces the trend.

    I'm not sure why you feel "vindicated" your question was "is this the topic du jour or is it from a genuine societal/economic standpoint".

    It would appear it is not "topic du jour". It might qualify as "topic du an" as it appears to have jumped to the fore sometime in Jan this year.

    Either way, I dont see how you can claim "vindication" as such... what do you feel vinidicated about?

    DeV.
    vindicated in the sense that I correctly judged that boards was obsessed with the PS, and your figures back it up:D, 0.01% up to a full 1%:D


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    #207
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Gosh, I would never have considered that there hadnt been a big upswing in PS related posts.... its become a big big topic in Ireland and Boards is very much a mirror held up to our society. I would even go so far as to say it IS part of irish society.

    I think a blindman would have agreed that there has been a big upswing in PS related posts... using terms like "vindicated" and "obsessed" seem out of place.

    Did anyone suggest that it was "business as usual" ?

    DeV.


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    #208
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    DeVore wrote: »
    (1) Gosh, I would never have considered that there hadnt been a big upswing in PS related posts.... its become a big big topic in Ireland and Boards is very much a mirror held up to our society. I would even go so far as to say it IS part of irish society.(2)

    I think a blindman would have agreed that there has been a big upswing in PS related posts... using terms like "vindicated" and "obsessed" seem out of place.(3)

    Did anyone suggest that it was "business as usual" ?(4)

    DeV.
    (1) it was also the nature of the posts that caught my attention, 'evil PS workers' type posts.
    (2) it is who we are?, well some of us maybe.
    (3) how would the visually impaired have difficulty keeping up with current affairs. Again I feel vindicated.;)


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    #209
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Vindicated, but unable to count apparently :p

    DeV.


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    #210
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Our trend was for "Public Sector" as a term... in no way did we claim a correlation with "evil". I think you are committing the sin of presuming the data supports your hypothesis. All we can say for certain is that in Jan this year, the usage of the term (and so presumably discussion of the area) increased greatly.

    DeV.


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    #211
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    DeVore wrote: »
    Our trend was for "Public Sector" as a term... in no way did we claim a correlation with "evil". I think you are committing the sin of presuming the data supports your hypothesis. All we can say for certain is that in Jan this year, the usage of the term (and so presumably discussion of the area) increased greatly.

    DeV.
    point 4 from the earlier post, which I forgot was, what do you mean 'business as usual'?
    I don't mean that all PS related threads are saying that all PS workers are 'evil', but there is a great number of such comments on here lately.
    I mean the general PS related discussion on here. The number of threads are quite numerous, there seem to be about 5 or more per day.


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