Challenging the law? Where to start

ivanthehunter

Theres been a lot of talk (a lot of talk) here about legal issues that have affected either the shooting community or the hunting community.
So i thought that this thread would be quite suited here.

If i was actually going to put money where mouth was, where and how would i start on this long, thankless road?

And whats the most that can be realistic expected from such endeavors?

pullandbang

ivanthehunter wrote: »

And whats the most that can be realistic expected from such endeavors?

That you make enemies within the Gardai, give yourself years of grief and make some already wealthy lawyers even more wealthy!

Sorry for sounding so downbeat, but that's the way I see it.

Grizzly 45

A couple of millions would be handy.Dont bother wasting it on court cases,start a proper well run ,properly HONEST 3rd force political party,with a pro personal freedom slant,with a belif of less Govt meddling in the citizens lives.Properly thought out economic and international policies.With a bunch of people who have actually achieved somthing in their fields,and think outside the box when it comes to problems of a national sort,and encourage those of the same mindset to serve their country..Not a bunch of failed country solicitors,or accountants[After all if they were GOOD solicitors or accountants,they would be making more in their chosen professions than being politicans.:rolleyes:].Or worse somone from a dynasty of politicans.Just because your great grand dad/mother/uncle/cousin,popped a few Tans or Auxies off ,or made Dev or Mick a cup of tea and a sanger,does not qualify you to run a constitutional republic.Nor does whacking carrying or kicking a hunk of leather around a pitch with a stick or your hands for your county qualify INMHO for a political career.Ditto pub owners,sons &daughters thereof,or school teachers.
Anyways,I digress.Get that political party off the ground,into power with a majority,and promptly dump this mess of stupid firearms laws into the dustbin of history,and write it along somthing simple like.."The right of the Irish people to keep and bear arms,wether for sporting,hunting or in defence of their nation,or themselves ,their homes or property.Shall not be infringed upon in any way,by any authorithy on a local or national level."
Failing that get yourself elected to Minister for Justice with any party.Any ejit can do this job...Find a convient political coat peg to hang your legislation on ..Rewrite the firearms laws.
Good luck on the career move.:):D

rowa

pullandbang wrote: »

That you make enemies within the Gardai, give yourself years of grief and make some already wealthy lawyers even more wealthy!

Sorry for sounding so downbeat, but that's the way I see it.

true , but if people didn't do so we would be living in a police state with no firearms at all .

ivanthehunter

pullandbang wrote: »

That you make enemies within the Gardai, give yourself years of grief and make some already wealthy lawyers even more wealthy!

Sorry for sounding so downbeat, but that's the way I see it.

Well i fail to see the connection with the garda? they only enforce what ever laws are active at the time! They'd have nothing to do with the legislative process save to give their professional opinions and recommendations well before the initial drafts are commenced!

However you actual make it sound quite easy! make enemies of gardai#1 give money to lawyer#2 and suffer as much as any married man#3;)

Yes i hear the side liners now and their complaints that these mear sentiments here in cyber space will do nothing to change the beast, but change is on the wind and he who sits passively on the fence of life will be but buried beneath it..... I stand..

In relation to being downbeat, i will say that this is the first obstacle which one must overcome!
Remember that if a problem is big enough to see then its small enough to solve!!

ivanthehunter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

A couple of millions would be handy.Dont bother wasting it on court cases,start a proper well run ,properly HONEST 3rd force political party,with a pro personal freedom slant,with a belif of less Govt meddling in the citizens lives.Properly thought out economic and international policies.With a bunch of people who have actually achieved somthing in their fields,and think outside the box when it comes to problems of a national sort,and encourage those of the same mindset to serve their country..Not a bunch of failed country solicitors,or accountants[After all if they were GOOD solicitors or accountants,they would be making more in their chosen professions than being politicans.:rolleyes:].Or worse somone from a dynasty of politicans.Just because your great grand dad/mother/uncle/cousin,popped a few Tans or Auxies off ,or made Dev or Mick a cup of tea and a sanger,does not qualify you to run a constitutional republic.Nor does whacking carrying or kicking a hunk of leather around a pitch with a stick or your hands for your county qualify INMHO for a political career.Ditto pub owners,sons &daughters thereof,or school teachers.
Anyways,I digress.Get that political party off the ground,into power with a majority,and promptly dump this mess of stupid firearms laws into the dustbin of history,and write it along somthing simple like.."The right of the Irish people to keep and bear arms,wether for sporting,hunting or in defence of their nation,or themselves ,their homes or property.Shall not be infringed upon in any way,by any authorithy on a local or national level."
Failing that get yourself elected to Minister for Justice with any party.Any ejit can do this job...Find a convient political coat peg to hang your legislation on ..Rewrite the firearms laws.
Good luck on the career move.:):D

With your million to back me and with out the birth of a new 3rd party is there any option that the normal citizen can follow! Surely a county has a normal process for such grievances and within this process one has the chance to air such issues and to demonstrate the support of people either through a petition or other such instruments of popular persuasions.

rrpc

There are a couple of ways to challenge the law. The first is to toddle in to the Supreme Court with a parcel of lawyers and attempt to persuade them that a particular law is unconstitutional or otherwise defective. Takes a bit of time but you get to have the challenge named after you usually

The upshot of which will be the immediate replacement of said faulty law with something much more effective. See amendments to Firearms Acts in 2000, 2006, 2007 and 2009 for further details :rolleyes:

Persuade the Government of the day to persuade the houses of the Oireachtas to change the law. This one is much more effective as it won't be immediately changed back unless a successive Government decides to.

Become the Government and change it yourself.

Those are your options.

shannonpowerlab

rrpc wrote: »

Become the Government and change it yourself.

Is it a bit like how you know who got into power back in the 30's?

Well, now seems like about the right time to start while things are going down hill.

:D

Maybe for now
Promise job and prosperity for everyone
Economical reform
then
get into government a bit by bit
then loosen some of the opportunistic tax incentives
When things improve a bit take the credit and do massive PR
then
vote out the current government?

I thought they were all at it...?

No?

Sparks

Step one, which rrpc left out, is to have a net worth measured in millions of euro. Supreme court cases are not cheap if you lose. And frankly, winning a constitutional challange is rather uncommon.

The cynic in me says a far more effective method would be to have that net worth measured in millions and to then place large amounts of that net worth into donations to certain political bodies and groups. There is a history there that suggests the effectiveness of that approach to be high. Even if it does strike me as a total waste of money - think what you could do if you invested that money in building ranges all over the country, setting up sports scholarships, funding PR programmes and so forth...

Of course you could always try an online petition...

freddieot

Or - take your hard earned millions out of this economy and spend it where it will be appreciated and where you won't be treated like a criminal for having an interest in shooting (ie: just about anywhere else)

shannonpowerlab

Maybe I'll start shopping in the north...

kowloon

Spend that money buying everyone who can get a licence a cheap shotgun and suddenly politicians care about what shooters (voters) think .

ivanthehunter

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course you could always try an online petition...

Who would this be presented to and would they take any stock of such.

Also is on-line anybetter than an actual hard copy?

Sparks

Anyone, no and no.

ivanthehunter

Sparks wrote: »

Anyone, no and no.

So are you saying that any petition ever signed in Ireland was a complete waste of time and ink!

Surely if 1million people signed a petition then politician would take note!
I suppose their only interested if they see an angle by which to achieve votes! and if the numbers involved in any particular interest are sufficiently high enough then it might encourage politicians to see the benefit of paying attention to a certain group!

Just look at how FF sold us out to the greens in order to stay in the driving seat albeit that they now have a child sitting no their lap while they drive!!:rolleyes:

Sparks wrote: »

Anyone, no and no.

Also is it not the case that public opinion has helped to mould the legal system and it to has been responsible for legal changes!! Al least in some small part!!..


No and No Whats that about!! You are giving up too easily!!

Sparks

ivanthehunter wrote: »

So are you saying that any petition ever signed in Ireland was a complete waste of time and ink!

Ask me again on Budget day when the public sector payroll remains uncut.

Just look at how FF sold us out to the greens

...and that's why we keep getting stuffed. FF didn't sell us out to the Greens - the greens are the ablative partner. The Minister for Justice is not a Green, last I checked.

Also is it not the case that public opinion has helped to mould the legal system and it to has been responsible for legal changes!! Al least in some small part!

No, and most members of the legal profession would probably regard that as an insult, and point out that the law is not mob rule. Public opinion is useful in setting out what targets are easiest to use as ablative topics when defending a political office, not when it comes to deciding on what is and isn't upheld in court.

You are giving up too easily!!

I'm not giving up, because I'm not even starting, not on an idea that's such a waste of time, especially when you didn't spot that Zaraba had his sarcasm hat on when he proposed it.

ivanthehunter

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Who would this be presented to and would they take any stock of such.

Also is on-line anybetter than an actual hard copy?

If you cannot muster support for a petition, then realistically you won't have enough support to impact a law I would say.

ivanthehunter

Sparks wrote: »

you didn't spot that Zaraba had his sarcasm hat on when he proposed it.

I didn't see any reason to suspect any sarcasm!!
Are you speaking for other posters now! Ah sure you always were anyway!:cool:

ivanthehunter

Speaking of on line petitions i came across this!
http://www.petitiononline.com/petition.html

rrpc

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Speaking of on line petitions i came across this!
http://www.petitiononline.com/petition.html

And did you ever see anything so pathetic? :eek:

Grizzly 45

Much favoured by the Antis ,ICABS and various other fruit&nut groups....:).Grand effect is ending fieldsports..........????
You could of course get one million Eu citizens to petition Brussels for a total EU harmonised firearms law system.Careful for what you wish..You might just get it.:eek:

Sparks

But the anti-hunt and ICABS folks don't really use petitions as petitions, they use them as PR opportunities. The photo of the hunt sab head honcho handing a large wad of paper to the Prime Minister being on the front page of a newspaper is the goal, not the actual handing over forty signatures, if you follow me.