What would the public sector accept?

Amhran Nua

OMD wrote: »

That was 2 years ago when things were very, very, very different. Tax take has plummetted since then

That news story is from today, and shows figures from 2008, which put us within handshake distance of the EU average. Not to mention the GDP has plummeted as well as the tax take.

P. Breathnach

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Its a hell of a lot more than a few billion. As far as taxation goes, we pay more income tax than the EU average.

In terms of overall tax take, we're just 2% below the UK. If we had their levels of corporate tax we'd be well within the EU average.

Did you read what you posted? In particular how can you square

When the figures are adjusted for the multinational earnings which leave the country, the tax burden rises to around 34pc of national income (GNP). This compares with an average of around 39pc in the the EU-15 and a tax take of just under 36pc in the UK.

with your claim?

We pay less tax than the EU average.

Amhran Nua

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Did you read what you posted? In particular how can you square

with your claim?

We pay less tax than the EU average.

Read it again, total tax take is 34% after you factor in multinational capital flight as of 2008, not personal income taxes. The percentage of those paid hasn't changed enormously since then. As far as total tax take goes, that puts us 2% below the UK, and if we had their corporate tax rates, we'd be well within the EU average.

P. Breathnach

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Read it again, total tax take is 34% after you factor in multinational capital flight as of 2008, not personal income taxes. The percentage of those paid hasn't changed enormously since then. As far as total tax take goes, that puts us 2% below the UK, and if we had their corporate tax rates, we'd be well within the EU average.

You're pushing a case on the basis of flimsy evidence. How about the following?

The Commission on Taxation report showed that taxes on labour here were 34.2 per cent of total tax revenues in 2007, compared to an average of 45.2 per cent across the EU.

[Source: http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/down-to-brass-tax-45645.html]

Amhran Nua

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You're pushing a case on the basis of flimsy evidence. How about the following?

[Source: http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/down-to-brass-tax-45645.html]

What exactly are taxes on labour, PRSI or what? Income taxes in that year were:

P. Breathnach wrote: »

As Finance Minister Brian Lenihan complains about the high numbers not liable for income tax, the figures show taxes on personal income raising 28.4pc of revenue in 2007 -- higher than the EU-15 average.

Now perhaps the OECD is flimsy evidence to some, but I'll take their word for it. Its very clear that the income side of the balance sheet has been hit almost as hard as it can be, especially in a recession, and its the expenditure side that needs to be addressed, with a deficit running towards 100% of revenue.

Wishbone Ash

Sizzler wrote:

This is what the unions are proposing, obviously not great at Maths if they think this will save the neccessary €1.3 Billion.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...259396248.html

Quote:
Paying overtime at flat rates rather than time-and-a-half;
Introducing an 8am-8pm core day during which no overtime payments would apply;
Introduction of unpaid leave, perhaps as much as 12 days per year;
The possibility of staff working a small number of additional hours per week;
The elimination of privilege days at Christmas and Easter.

I would estimate the above would be lucky to save €150m

I'd be very suspicious of anything McLoone says. He is only interested in the interests of "Monday to Friday -office hours" type of Public Servants and is proposing measures which will not affect them.

Reducing overtime to a flat rate is a joke. I work in a frontline 24/7/365 service and co-ordinate the overtime. I spend a considerable amount of time each day trying to get staff to come in to do overtime. Very few are interested in doing it at 'time + 50%'. Does he seriously believe that they are going to do it at 'flat' rate? :rolleyes:

ardmacha

Its very clear that the income side of the balance sheet has been hit almost as hard as it can be,

No it is not. That article makes clear that Ireland takes in a fraction of the property taxes by the normal standards of advanced countries. You cannot say that there is no scope to introduce a form of taxation that is both usual and recommended by the Commission on Taxation. Marginal income tax rates should not be increased, a broad property tax should be introduced, with relief for those who paid stamp duty in the last 8 years. Stamp duty should be greatly lower or abolished and a government scheme should be introduced to facilitate people in negative equity moving to less expensive houses which would allow them reduce some of the capital on their loans. If we adopt a tax structure closer to the UK then we might be able to make VAT closer to the UK rate thereby reducing revenue leakage.

irish_bob

OMD wrote: »

The rich do pay tax. This idea that there are rich people out there who could be taxed more and by doing so get us out of this mess is rubbish. The money is not there.

and why is it not there some may ask , because the states revenues went over a cliff when the property boom ended , it was the property boom and only the property boom which allowed bertie to make our nurses , teachers , guards , consultants and public servants in general the highest paid in the EU and also to give huge increases in wellfare , everything we now witness from massive unemployment to a huge gap in income - spend ratio can be traced back to the collapse of the property boom , this economy was a one trick pony which is why spending has to be cut back to pre property boom levels and lifestyles must also adjust accordingly , the public sector seem to think the tax payer can fill the void left by the property boom generated taxes , this is impossible to anyone with an ounce of sense or reason

P. Breathnach

Amhran Nua wrote: »

... Now perhaps the OECD is flimsy evidence to some, but I'll take their word for it...

So give me evidence from the OECD.

Amhran Nua

ardmacha wrote: »

No it is not. That article makes clear that Ireland takes in a fraction of the property taxes by the normal standards of advanced countries.

We are within a hair of UK taxation levels without property taxes, which should tell you something. I'm in favour of a tax on non PPR residences, which should be classified as businesses properly, but an ongoing property tax on everything means you are just renting your home from the government.

ardmacha wrote: »

If we adopt a tax structure closer to the UK then we might be able to make VAT closer to the UK rate thereby reducing revenue leakage.

We cannot do that, since we'd lose most of our FDI.

And lets say we did implement all of your taxation reforms, how many billions would that bring in?

Wishbone Ash

irish_bob wrote: »

the property boom which allowed bertie to make our nurses , teachers , guards , consultants and public servants in general the highest paid in the EU

It's a bit strange that, during the boom, thousands of nurses had to be recruited from the Philippines, India and South Africa as very few in Ireland were interested in it and there was so much more easier money to be made elsewhere?

Amhran Nua

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

It's a bit strange that, during the boom, thousands of nurses had to be recruited from the Philippines, India and South Africa as very few in Ireland were interested in it and there was so much more easier money to be made elsewhere?

Where, exactly?

Wishbone Ash

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Where, exactly?

I've no idea but applications traditionally plummet during a boom and soar during a recession.

Amhran Nua

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I've no idea but applications traditionally plummet during a boom and soar during a recession.

Is this unique to Ireland or in general? Numbers of applicants dropped dramatically in 2005, but this was because an extra year was added to the curriculum so not as many qualified that year. Nursing was one of those professions along with IT that got fast track visas back in 2000, and so attracted a lot of foreign workers, with around 10% of all nurses in Ireland being non nationals, which seemed to be a solution looking for a problem.

The wages bill for public sector nurses accounts for €2.2 billion of the health budget.

The basic pay for a newly qualified staff nurse, before premium shift pay, is €31,233. The average annual nursing salary in 2005 was €56,000.

Figures from the Health Service Executive show that a staff nurse’s salary was €43,430 last year, up from €30,829 in 2000. A clinical nurse manager earned €55,588 last year, up from €37,981 in 2000.

An assistant director of nursing earned €68,797 last year, compared with €45,862 in 2000.

The salary for a director of nursing was €85,419 last year, up from €56,453 in 2000.

irish_bob

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

It's a bit strange that, during the boom, thousands of nurses had to be recruited from the Philippines, India and South Africa as very few in Ireland were interested in it and there was so much more easier money to be made elsewhere?

do tell us where nurses could have made more in the private sector in the past decade , i cant wait to hear this

sdanseo

average_runner wrote: »

At the moment tax returns are down a massive amount mainly because people lsot their jobs around 500,000 i think was the figure and then alot of pay cuts which effects the tax return and property mark in bits So cuts have to be made all over.

So which of the following proposals would public and private sector like to see:

1. Pay cut in public sector, maybe 3% for under 30,000, 5% under 50000, 7% under 60000 and 10% for everyone above it?

2. A reduction in the amount the goverment contributes to your pension or the goverment make all the pensions like the private sector, ie you give as much as you want, goverment gives 5% towards it

3. No cuts in anything, but public sector is opened up like the private sector and let the markets adjust everything, ie no more job security, so redundos could happen in years to come.

4 Increase tax rates for all, and lets face it if we do this the goverment wont hit the super rich, its the joe soap that will suffer. Just the way ireland works.



Can only choose one.

The public sector isn't the only problem. However to choose one of your hypotheses I would have to go with #4 or (#3 as a backup). There's no excuse for layering the fallout of all of this on public servants. They work an awful lot harder than the pen-=pushing executives of private businesses.

Third tax tier above €100k of 50%; a fundamental reduction in the amount of red tape and bull**** in the public service and people employed who do nothing, like for example the dole office that I pass every day on the way to work (irony not lost on me)there's always at LEAST 2 porters hanging around the door drinking tea. Don't punish all public servants with 17% pay cuts just because there's a pile of people pushing paper and pens that don't need pushing and another pile of jobs that we all know are there because thy won't let the people in them go.

Bringing everyone into the tax net is a good idea to teach responsibility and to prevent as many total scabs leeching money from the government, having 50pc of the workforce outside it is silly but we needn't cripple the lower paid either. a sub-10% tax on 15-25k would be acceptable.

Tax incentives for people who get themselves back into employment might be an idea, a cash bonus of €500 if you find a job for yourself might encourage some of the leeches of society who seem to do nothing but shoot heroin all day to get up off their arise and find something to better themselves. Even instead of funding needle exchanges etc, give them a cash bonus if they can prove they've ditched the drugs and stayed off them. End result is savings in looking after the coonts.
As a slight aside, I read somewhere that a 1c tax on every text sent in Ireland would raise €120m a year. Just throwing it out there.

Wishbone Ash

irish_bob wrote: »

do tell us where nurses could have made more in the private sector in the past decade , i cant wait to hear this

Read my post again (#42). I never mentioned the private sector. I was merely making the point (see post #44) that there were very few application from Irish people during the boom whereas now there are many but there is a moratorium on recruitment.

Wishbone Ash

sdonn wrote: »

Third tax tier above €100k of 50%

The problem with that is that those on variable incomes may adjust their work pattern to avoid falling into that tier and therefore, the tax return may actually reduce.

doc_17

I'd accept 1

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

do tell us where nurses could have made more in the private sector in the past decade , i cant wait to hear this

By signing on with an agency.

ParkRunner

It looks like compulsory unpaid leave in the region of around 12-14 days could form the basis of an agreement to prevent the strike next week. It seems like a good idea to me anyway and a fairer way to reduce expenditure.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1128/breaking4.htm

seangal

EF wrote: »

It looks like compulsory unpaid leave in the region of around 12-14 days could form the basis of an agreement to prevent the strike next week. It seems like a good idea to me anyway and a fairer way to reduce expenditure.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1128/breaking4.htm

i would agree with that also

RealityCheck

EF wrote: »

It looks like compulsory unpaid leave in the region of around 12-14 days could form the basis of an agreement to prevent the strike next week. It seems like a good idea to me anyway and a fairer way to reduce expenditure.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1128/breaking4.htm

Great. But what about next year and the two following years, wage rates will have to be reduced. Is it going to be any easier to face up to this then?

seclachi

I dont like the sound of cutting overtime, you`d probably get a situation where people just fly out the door at 4-5 every day as they dont feel its worth there while.

I dont think there proposals will be nearly enough though, 12 days unpaid leave is the best idea of the lot. The number of people in the public sector has shot up during the boom and wages have gone up too, these have to be addressed to get to the root of the problem.

I think some privatisation would be good too. Take lecturing for example, it would get rid of so much of the stale wood that I have seen going through college and might bring in some fresh blood, I can imagine it working in many other areas as well.

P. Breathnach

EF wrote: »

It looks like compulsory unpaid leave in the region of around 12-14 days could form the basis of an agreement to prevent the strike next week. It seems like a good idea to me anyway and a fairer way to reduce expenditure.

I know public servants who do not take all their annual leave because of the requirements of their work and their commitment to meeting those needs. How will such situations be dealt with?

At what time of year should the schools take their extra holidays?

ParkRunner

RealityCheck wrote: »

Great. But what about next year and the two following years, wage rates will have to be reduced. Is it going to be any easier to face up to this then?

Wage rates do not necessarily have to be reduced. What has to be reduced is the cost to the exchequer of the public sector pay bill. Meaningful public sector reform can be worked on over the next few years and these stop-gap measures can help us get through this current crisis.

seclachi wrote: »

I dont like the sound of cutting overtime, you`d probably get a situation where people just fly out the door at 4-5 every day as they dont feel its worth there while.

I dont think there proposals will be nearly enough though, 12 days unpaid leave is the best idea of the lot. The number of people in the public sector has shot up during the boom and wages have gone up too, these have to be addressed to get to the root of the problem.

I think some privatisation would be good too. Take lecturing for example, it would get rid of so much of the stale wood that I have seen going through college and might bring in some fresh blood, I can imagine it working in many other areas as well.

Im not sure what the situation is like with other areas of the public sector but where i work there is a mass exodus going on with the amount of people taking early retirement. The vast majority of these are the highest paid too.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I know public servants who do not take all their annual leave because of the requirements of their work and their commitment to meeting those needs. How will such situations be dealt with?

At what time of year should the schools take their extra holidays?

Obviously other measures will need to be considered where extra unpaid annual leave cannot be taken due to work commitments. Off the top of my head, the schools might be able to stay open for an extra 2-3 weeks.

P. Breathnach

EF wrote: »

... Obviously other measures will need to be considered where extra unpaid annual leave cannot be taken due to work commitments. Off the top of my head, the schools might be able to stay open for an extra 2-3 weeks.

How much would that save?

bridgitt

EF wrote: »

Wage rates do not necessarily have to be reduced. What has to be reduced is the cost to the exchequer of the public sector pay bill.

True, but in the interests of fairness a situation where the public sector pay and pensions are so out of line cannot be tolerated. I was just listening to leader of the worlds biggest airline on the radio, an Irishman who pays his taxes in Ireland and who grew the business from humble beginnings in the eighties. He said he would solve our budget shortfall within a year , and save 20 billion, not the 4 billion the government is pussyfooting with. The criminal waste in public sector expenditure would be achieved by among other things reducing welfare by 20%, reducing public sector pay by 20% , getting public servants to work 40 hours a week like everyone else instead of 32 hours ( and if they do not like it they can leave ), reducing public sector holidays to the number the private sector takes, ( and if they do not like it they can leave ) , reducing the waste in the public sector etc. The public sector have copious amounts of their own IT specialists, yet they pay 200 million a year to IT consultants / outsourcing the expertise ! When O'Leary wanted his website designed and made, he got two students to do it in their spare time, for a nominal sum ! Our government even if they cut 4 billion in the budget, will still have to borrow 20 or 21 billion a year. In no time the country will owe over 100 billion at the rate we are going. Madness, as O'Leary said. Never mind what the public sector and other recepients of government expenditure would accept, tell them they are going to get what they are going to get, and if they do not like it, they are free to leave.

ParkRunner

P. Breathnach wrote: »

How much would that save?

Not a whole lot. Teachers could take their unpaid leave during the school summer holidays so I guess. I know they do courses and other things during the summer but it doesnt sound too unreasonable.

ParkRunner

bridgitt wrote: »

True, but in the interests of fairness a situation where the public sector pay and pensions are so out of line cannot be tolerated. I was just listening to leader of the worlds biggest airline on the radio, an Irishman who pays his taxes in Ireland and who grew the business from humble beginnings in the eighties. He said he would solve our budget shortfall within a year , and save 20 billion, not the 4 billion the government is pussyfooting with. The criminal waste in public sector expenditure would be achieved by among other things reducing welfare by 20%, reducing public sector pay by 20% , getting public servants to work 40 hours a week like everyone else instead of 32 hours ( and if they do not like it they can leave ), reducing public sector holidays to the number the private sector takes, ( and if they do not like it they can leave ) , reducing the waste in the public sector etc. The public sector have copious amounts of their own IT specialists, yet they pay 200 million a year to IT consultants / outsourcing the expertise ! When O'Leary wanted his website designed and made, he got two students to do it in their spare time, for a nominal sum ! Our government even if they cut 4 billion in the budget, will still have to borrow 20 or 21 billion a year. In no time the country will owe over 100 billion at the rate we are going. Madness, as O'Leary said. Never mind what the public sector and other recepients of government expenditure would accept, tell them they are going to get what they are going to get, and if they do not like it, they are free to leave.

You missed the 2nd part of my quote. Meaningful public sector reform can be worked on over the next few years and these stop-gap measures can help us get through this current crisis. I heard that interview too and by all means where waste can be cut it should be cut. I imagine there are very few public sector workers who work a full week and do only 32 hours.