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What would the public sector accept?

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,092 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    It looks like compulsory unpaid leave in the region of around 12-14 days could form the basis of an agreement to prevent the strike next week. It seems like a good idea to me anyway and a fairer way to reduce expenditure.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1128/breaking4.htm


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    EF wrote: »
    It looks like compulsory unpaid leave in the region of around 12-14 days could form the basis of an agreement to prevent the strike next week. It seems like a good idea to me anyway and a fairer way to reduce expenditure.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1128/breaking4.htm
    i would agree with that also


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭RealityCheck


    EF wrote: »
    It looks like compulsory unpaid leave in the region of around 12-14 days could form the basis of an agreement to prevent the strike next week. It seems like a good idea to me anyway and a fairer way to reduce expenditure.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1128/breaking4.htm

    Great. But what about next year and the two following years, wage rates will have to be reduced. Is it going to be any easier to face up to this then?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 510 ✭✭✭seclachi


    I dont like the sound of cutting overtime, you`d probably get a situation where people just fly out the door at 4-5 every day as they dont feel its worth there while.

    I dont think there proposals will be nearly enough though, 12 days unpaid leave is the best idea of the lot. The number of people in the public sector has shot up during the boom and wages have gone up too, these have to be addressed to get to the root of the problem.

    I think some privatisation would be good too. Take lecturing for example, it would get rid of so much of the stale wood that I have seen going through college and might bring in some fresh blood, I can imagine it working in many other areas as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    EF wrote: »
    It looks like compulsory unpaid leave in the region of around 12-14 days could form the basis of an agreement to prevent the strike next week. It seems like a good idea to me anyway and a fairer way to reduce expenditure.

    I know public servants who do not take all their annual leave because of the requirements of their work and their commitment to meeting those needs. How will such situations be dealt with?

    At what time of year should the schools take their extra holidays?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,092 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Great. But what about next year and the two following years, wage rates will have to be reduced. Is it going to be any easier to face up to this then?

    Wage rates do not necessarily have to be reduced. What has to be reduced is the cost to the exchequer of the public sector pay bill. Meaningful public sector reform can be worked on over the next few years and these stop-gap measures can help us get through this current crisis.
    seclachi wrote: »
    I dont like the sound of cutting overtime, you`d probably get a situation where people just fly out the door at 4-5 every day as they dont feel its worth there while.

    I dont think there proposals will be nearly enough though, 12 days unpaid leave is the best idea of the lot. The number of people in the public sector has shot up during the boom and wages have gone up too, these have to be addressed to get to the root of the problem.

    I think some privatisation would be good too. Take lecturing for example, it would get rid of so much of the stale wood that I have seen going through college and might bring in some fresh blood, I can imagine it working in many other areas as well.

    Im not sure what the situation is like with other areas of the public sector but where i work there is a mass exodus going on with the amount of people taking early retirement. The vast majority of these are the highest paid too.
    I know public servants who do not take all their annual leave because of the requirements of their work and their commitment to meeting those needs. How will such situations be dealt with?

    At what time of year should the schools take their extra holidays?

    Obviously other measures will need to be considered where extra unpaid annual leave cannot be taken due to work commitments. Off the top of my head, the schools might be able to stay open for an extra 2-3 weeks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    EF wrote: »
    ... Obviously other measures will need to be considered where extra unpaid annual leave cannot be taken due to work commitments. Off the top of my head, the schools might be able to stay open for an extra 2-3 weeks.

    How much would that save?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭bridgitt


    EF wrote: »
    Wage rates do not necessarily have to be reduced. What has to be reduced is the cost to the exchequer of the public sector pay bill.

    True, but in the interests of fairness a situation where the public sector pay and pensions are so out of line cannot be tolerated. I was just listening to leader of the worlds biggest airline on the radio, an Irishman who pays his taxes in Ireland and who grew the business from humble beginnings in the eighties. He said he would solve our budget shortfall within a year , and save 20 billion, not the 4 billion the government is pussyfooting with. The criminal waste in public sector expenditure would be achieved by among other things reducing welfare by 20%, reducing public sector pay by 20% , getting public servants to work 40 hours a week like everyone else instead of 32 hours ( and if they do not like it they can leave ), reducing public sector holidays to the number the private sector takes, ( and if they do not like it they can leave ) , reducing the waste in the public sector etc. The public sector have copious amounts of their own IT specialists, yet they pay 200 million a year to IT consultants / outsourcing the expertise ! When O'Leary wanted his website designed and made, he got two students to do it in their spare time, for a nominal sum ! Our government even if they cut 4 billion in the budget, will still have to borrow 20 or 21 billion a year. In no time the country will owe over 100 billion at the rate we are going. Madness, as O'Leary said. Never mind what the public sector and other recepients of government expenditure would accept, tell them they are going to get what they are going to get, and if they do not like it, they are free to leave.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,092 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    How much would that save?

    Not a whole lot. Teachers could take their unpaid leave during the school summer holidays so I guess. I know they do courses and other things during the summer but it doesnt sound too unreasonable.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,092 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    bridgitt wrote: »
    True, but in the interests of fairness a situation where the public sector pay and pensions are so out of line cannot be tolerated. I was just listening to leader of the worlds biggest airline on the radio, an Irishman who pays his taxes in Ireland and who grew the business from humble beginnings in the eighties. He said he would solve our budget shortfall within a year , and save 20 billion, not the 4 billion the government is pussyfooting with. The criminal waste in public sector expenditure would be achieved by among other things reducing welfare by 20%, reducing public sector pay by 20% , getting public servants to work 40 hours a week like everyone else instead of 32 hours ( and if they do not like it they can leave ), reducing public sector holidays to the number the private sector takes, ( and if they do not like it they can leave ) , reducing the waste in the public sector etc. The public sector have copious amounts of their own IT specialists, yet they pay 200 million a year to IT consultants / outsourcing the expertise ! When O'Leary wanted his website designed and made, he got two students to do it in their spare time, for a nominal sum ! Our government even if they cut 4 billion in the budget, will still have to borrow 20 or 21 billion a year. In no time the country will owe over 100 billion at the rate we are going. Madness, as O'Leary said. Never mind what the public sector and other recepients of government expenditure would accept, tell them they are going to get what they are going to get, and if they do not like it, they are free to leave.

    You missed the 2nd part of my quote. Meaningful public sector reform can be worked on over the next few years and these stop-gap measures can help us get through this current crisis. I heard that interview too and by all means where waste can be cut it should be cut. I imagine there are very few public sector workers who work a full week and do only 32 hours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Properly organised, the unpaid leave thing would be a good idea. When the detail is examined then it would be found that more leave would not be a problem in some sectors while in others it would. The first category are then a candidate for a reduction in numbers with people being moved to sectors in the second category. For instance it might well be found perfectly possible to give bureaucrats in the HSE leave without loss of service but not as easy with radiographers.

    The only observation I have is that it would very unjust if people whose services were in demand ended up with a straight paycut, while those who had nothing to do got an extra fortnight off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    EF wrote: »
    . I imagine there are very few public sector workers who work a full week and do only 32 hours.


    Correct.
    I love makey uppy figures though!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭bridgitt


    EF wrote: »
    I imagine there are very few public sector workers who work a full week and do only 32 hours.

    Judging by how many post here during the day ( some posters admit it, and even said they are entitled to surf the net during working hours ) , and how quiet it was last Tuesday when they were up north shopping / on strike, you are probably correct in assuming 32 hours a week are not "worked" on average. Some official figures are much less eg teachers + lecturers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Flex


    EF wrote: »
    It looks like compulsory unpaid leave in the region of around 12-14 days could form the basis of an agreement to prevent the strike next week. It seems like a good idea to me anyway and a fairer way to reduce expenditure.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1128/breaking4.htm

    I'll be extremely worried if thats the case. The simple reason is that this doesnt address the problem at hand; the huge level of public spending. What happens next year? Another 12 days upaid leave? And the year after that?

    Public spending must be cut drastically because it cant be afforded. Taxes are practically at the point of diminishing returns this year and the Minister for Finance has stated numerous times theres extremely little scope for generating more tax revenue. When they increased taxes months ago their revenue plummeted. For God sake why do people refuse to realise that????? We'll be squeezing the final drops out of taxation this year to make up €4B, what happens next year??

    Hopefully this will just be a stop gap, if only to try convince the French, Germans and British that we are actually taking the tough steps needed to address the issue while simply using the €500m a week their lending us for breathing room in the interim, rather than thinking itll last forever.

    €500M a week is being borrowed. Thats enough to build 3 new Red & Green LUAS lines every month, 3 new port tunnels every month, new motorways... But no, instead we're using it to finance short-term debts with no prospect for future returns (except massive interest repayments that will be on our backs for years and years to come).

    Cut Public Spending Now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,092 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    bridgitt wrote: »
    Judging by how many post here during the day ( some posters admit it, and even said they are entitled to surf the net during working hours ) , and how quiet it was last Tuesday when they were up north shopping / on strike, you are probably correct in assuming 32 hours a week are not "worked" on average. Some official figures are much less eg teachers + lecturers.

    So then why are you calling for a 40 hour week if public sector workers dont do anything but surf the net in your opinion?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭bridgitt


    Flex wrote: »
    €500M a week is being borrowed. Thats enough to build 3 new Red & Green LUAS lines every month, 3 new port tunnels every month, new motorways... But no, instead we're using it to finance short-term debts with no prospect for future returns (except massive interest repayments that will be on our backs for years and years to come).
    "we're using it to finance short-term debts"....ehhhh, true, we saw last Tuesday where a lot of it is going - to buy trolleyfuls of drink in Newry, Derry, Enniskillen etc. The party is not over for some people yet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭bridgitt


    EF wrote: »
    So then why are you calling for a 40 hour week if public sector workers dont do anything but surf the net in your opinion?

    I never said "public sector workers dont do anything but surf the net". Get your facts right. It was not me calling for a 40 hour week for public servants - its what one of the top business people in the country suggested, as part of the measures in order to save 20 billion a year / solve our economic crises.
    Sack some people from the public service, and get the rest to work 40 hours a week like everyone else ( and if they do not like it they can leave ).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭old boy


    me thinks they only thing the p.s. workers will settle for is another cash cow, or the same one under a different discuise


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭HollyB


    EF wrote: »
    It looks like compulsory unpaid leave in the region of around 12-14 days could form the basis of an agreement to prevent the strike next week. It seems like a good idea to me anyway and a fairer way to reduce expenditure.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1128/breaking4.htm

    I agree, as long as they decide in advance the number of unpaid days and adjust salaries accordingly at the start of the year. If it turns out that they over-estimated the number of unpaid days, they can refund the money for those days or else convert them to annual leave and carry them over to the next year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    bridgitt wrote: »
    I never said "public sector workers dont do anything but surf the net". Get your facts right. It was not me calling for a 40 hour week for public servants - its what one of the top business people in the country suggested, as part of the measures in order to save 20 billion a year / solve our economic crises.
    Sack some people from the public service, and get the rest to work 40 hours a week like everyone else ( and if they do not like it they can leave ).

    increasing working hours is code for culling numbers which in turn means a cut in the wage bill , increasing working hours in itself wont solve our problems


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭erictheviking


    bridgitt wrote: »
    Judging by how many post here during the day ( some posters admit it, and even said they are entitled to surf the net during working hours ) , and how quiet it was last Tuesday when they were up north shopping / on strike, you are probably correct in assuming 32 hours a week are not "worked" on average. Some official figures are much less eg teachers + lecturers.
    :pac::pac: Rubbish! It seems to me most posters on here in Daytime are Private Sector,Unemployed, Self employed and the students. I know a few lads who are public sector and they have no access to boards and other forums as there is software that blocks their PC's (Although I would imagine higher ranks may not have the same problem.)
    How do you know those shoppers were all PS? Could it not have been Mums whose kids had the day off so they decided to go on a shopping trip? I heard there was a tailback Friday into Newry. Was this caused by 600 central bank workers?:rolleyes: I doubt it!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭erictheviking


    bridgitt wrote: »
    I never said "public sector workers dont do anything but surf the net". Get your facts right. It was not me calling for a 40 hour week for public servants - its what one of the top business people in the country suggested, as part of the measures in order to save 20 billion a year / solve our economic crises.
    Sack some people from the public service, and get the rest to work 40 hours a week like everyone else ( and if they do not like it they can leave ).

    How many people work a 40 hour week? Every job I've worked in has been a 39 hour or 37.5 hour week. After this its overtime.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    I know public servants who do not take all their annual leave because of the requirements of their work and their commitment to meeting those needs. How will such situations be dealt with?

    .
    It would be done by taking 12 day pay off them during the summer
    It would be put in place for 2010 and then reviewed in 2011 and 2012
    In 2012 it would be hoped that the public sector wage bill will have came down by people leaving it and not being replaced
    The recruitment embargo has all ready saved 600 million in 2009
    12 to 14 days would save about 1.3 billion
    the question is will the media still keep bashing the public sector even after the 1.3 billion has being saved as we still will be on the same hour rate of pay.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    :pac::pac: Rubbish! It seems to me most posters on here in Daytime are Private Sector,Unemployed, Self employed and the students. I know a few lads who are public sector and they have no access to boards and other forums as there is software that blocks their PC's (Although I would imagine higher ranks may not have the same problem.)
    How do you know those shoppers were all PS? Could it not have been Mums whose kids had the day off so they decided to go on a shopping trip? I heard there was a tailback Friday into Newry. Was this caused by 600 central bank workers?:rolleyes: I doubt it!
    we can solve this by people saying are they private or public sector and the hours they work
    i have siad i am public sector
    so time for the rest to declare and we can go back and see who is posting when


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    seangal wrote: »
    .
    It would be done by taking 12 day pay off them during the summer
    It would be put in place for 2010 and then reviewed in 2011 and 2012
    In 2012 it would be hoped that the public sector wage bill will have came down by people leaving it and not being replaced
    The recruitment embargo has all ready saved 600 million in 2009
    12 to 14 days would save about 1.3 billion
    the question is will the media still keep bashing the public sector even after the 1.3 billion has being saved as we still will be on the same hour rate of pay.



    so the teachers who already have one of the shortest working years

    get to work even less

    bleh :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭erictheviking


    seangal wrote: »
    I know public servants who do not take all their annual leave because of the requirements of their work and their commitment to meeting those needs. How will such situations be dealt with?

    .
    It would be done by taking 12 day pay off them during the summer
    It would be put in place for 2010 and then reviewed in 2011 and 2012
    In 2012 it would be hoped that the public sector wage bill will have came down by people leaving it and not being replaced
    The recruitment embargo has all ready saved 600 million in 2009
    12 to 14 days would save about 1.3 billion
    the question is will the media still keep bashing the public sector even after the 1.3 billion has being saved as we still will be on the same hour rate of pay.
    Of course they will keep up the PS bashing as they need a scapegoat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    Flex wrote: »
    I'll be extremely worried if thats the case. The simple reason is that this doesnt address the problem at hand; the huge level of public spending. What happens next year? Another 12 days upaid leave? And the year after that?

    Public spending must be cut drastically because it cant be afforded. Taxes are practically at the point of diminishing returns this year and the Minister for Finance has stated numerous times theres extremely little scope for generating more tax revenue. When they increased taxes months ago their revenue plummeted. For God sake why do people refuse to realise that????? We'll be squeezing the final drops out of taxation this year to make up €4B, what happens next year??

    Hopefully this will just be a stop gap, if only to try convince the French, Germans and British that we are actually taking the tough steps needed to address the issue while simply using the €500m a week their lending us for breathing room in the interim, rather than thinking itll last forever.

    €500M a week is being borrowed. Thats enough to build 3 new Red & Green LUAS lines every month, 3 new port tunnels every month, new motorways... But no, instead we're using it to finance short-term debts with no prospect for future returns (except massive interest repayments that will be on our backs for years and years to come).

    Cut Public Spending Now.
    it makes load of sence to do it this way as give unpaid leave
    it will reduce the cost of the wage bill by about 1.3 billion a year
    Each year we have people who retire from public sector and we are not replacing them so in 3 year we will have a lot lower wage bill and we will have held on to a younger workforce in the public sector
    The other option is to let the younger people go and end up with and old workforce
    If we cut pay now it will lead to wage demands in about 3 year time when we return to growth and i dont thing we want to go back to the days when there was allways some part of the public sector going on strike to get pay


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    so the teachers who already have one of the shortest working years

    get to work even less

    bleh :pac:
    sure they dont work during the summer and 12 days wage would be taken off them during the summer


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    seangal wrote: »
    It would be done by taking 12 day pay off them during the summer
    It would be put in place for 2010 and then reviewed in 2011 and 2012
    In 2012 it would be hoped that the public sector wage bill will have came down by people leaving it and not being replaced
    The recruitment embargo has all ready saved 600 million in 2009
    12 to 14 days would save about 1.3 billion
    the question is will the media still keep bashing the public sector even after the 1.3 billion has being saved as we still will be on the same hour rate of pay.

    So you go back to the idea of simply cutting their pay. So much for unpaid leave being a way of avoiding pay-cuts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭erictheviking


    OMD wrote: »
    Do workers know that is why they are striking? Do they realise their pay is going to be cut just the same on average. Those workers saying they cannot afford a paycut, do they realise the unions are quite happy to see their pay cut as long as it is not termed "a pay cut". Do they realise they will take an even larger pay cut to protect retired public servants?
    As far as I know forcing unpaid leave on PS workers will mean that pensioners won't have to take a cut and we all know the Govt. are very AFRAID of our senior citizens. The exchequer saves money on the pay bill, the pensioners won't be complaining...everyones a winner! well almost...it still won't be enough for the buy to let chancers, whingers and begrudgers etc. who want to see every working class family in the state in the poorhouse!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    So you go back to the idea of simply cutting their pay. So much for unpaid leave being a way of avoiding pay-cuts.
    i think what we are looking for now is money money money
    they dont care how they get it as long as they get it and if they can get it by agreement that is better for everybody
    your sound like you just want to get one over on the public sector
    we need 1.3 billion there are offering 1.3 billion so get over it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,092 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    I think its worth noting that even if the government get their 4bn cuts, including a reduction of 1.3bn in the public sector pay bill this will only lead to a stabilisation of the deficit rather than a significant reduction in the exchequer deficit.
    Current expenditure reductions cannot keep on chasing a slumping tax take so more innovative constructive solutions will have to be found


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    seangal wrote: »
    i think what we are looking for now is money money money
    they dont care how they get it as long as they get it and if they can get it by agreement that is better for everybody
    your sound like you just want to get one over on the public sector
    we need 1.3 billion there are offering 1.3 billion so get over it

    I don't understand what you mean.

    The idea of achieving savings by giving public servants a number of days of unpaid leave has been floated. I pointed to problems with the proposal, using a couple of examples (of many I could give). How does that sound like I want to get one over on the public sector?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭seangal


    I don't understand what you mean.

    The idea of achieving savings by giving public servants a number of days of unpaid leave has been floated. I pointed to problems with the proposal, using a couple of examples (of many I could give). How does that sound like I want to get one over on the public sector?
    what problems do u see with the proposal?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    seangal wrote: »
    what problems do u see with the proposal?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63235436&postcount=56


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭Arathorn


    If they are able to give everyone in he public sector an extra 2-3 weeks leave does this not suggest that they are overstaffed and underworked ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,053 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    seangal wrote: »
    it makes load of sence to do it this way as give unpaid leave
    it will reduce the cost of the wage bill by about 1.3 billion a year
    Each year we have people who retire from public sector and we are not replacing them so in 3 year we will have a lot lower wage bill and we will have held on to a younger workforce in the public sector
    The other option is to let the younger people go and end up with and old workforce
    If we cut pay now it will lead to wage demands in about 3 year time when we return to growth and i dont thing we want to go back to the days when there was allways some part of the public sector going on strike to get pay
    Just make it illegal for the public sector to strike, like in Germany.

    We need to tackle core pay because it got out of hand during the Celtic Pyramid. End of. The alternative is massive job losses in the Public Sector-something I don't want anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Arathorn wrote: »
    If they are able to give everyone in he public sector an extra 2-3 weeks leave does this not suggest that they are overstaffed and underworked ?

    Indeed.

    You'll find that the proposal will prove impracticable because because large areas of the public service are not overstaffed and underworked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭BroomBurner


    Are we just looking at pay only?

    The whole system of budgets in each department and county council is run the wrong way to my mind. They are each given their budget and if they don't spend the whole lot in the year, the following year, it's taken back. This prompts each department to spend, spend, spend on anything in order to ensure that they can say that the money was needed and will be needed the next year. This budget includes pay, etc.

    What we should do is restructure the budget system. Perhaps having those in a position of responsibility for the budget of their section on some sort of bonus structure. Either for themselves, for their department/section, or both. For example, if they manage to underspend by 10%, they receive a bonus of X% of salary. This would prompt the "older generation" of PS members to stop thinking in terms of the old way of spending what they have.

    Obviously, what I wouldn't want to see is those at the top creaming bonuses while the rest go without (i.e. no necessary supplies, etc.), so there would have to be a bit more thought put in to regulating it. Maybe a bit of a financial bonus for the department overall, instead of those in charge, might work.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 236 ✭✭Bruce2008


    At the moment tax returns are down a massive amount mainly because people lsot their jobs around 500,000 i think was the figure and then alot of pay cuts which effects the tax return and property mark in bits So cuts have to be made all over.

    So which of the following proposals would public and private sector like to see:

    1. Pay cut in public sector, maybe 3% for under 30,000, 5% under 50000, 7% under 60000 and 10% for everyone above it?

    2. A reduction in the amount the goverment contributes to your pension or the goverment make all the pensions like the private sector, ie you give as much as you want, goverment gives 5% towards it

    3. No cuts in anything, but public sector is opened up like the private sector and let the markets adjust everything, ie no more job security, so redundos could happen in years to come.

    4 Increase tax rates for all, and lets face it if we do this the goverment wont hit the super rich, its the joe soap that will suffer. Just the way ireland works.



    Can only choose one.

    Why not have a thread on a paycut to impose on Average Runner

    May aswell cause its makes as much sense as this Sh*te!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 236 ✭✭Bruce2008


    I just thought of something... a rare happening in itself...

    If the Public Service are so overpaid :D...

    and we give them a wage cut :(...

    then they will have less to spend :(....

    so there will be less taxes coming in :eek:...

    so we have to reduce spending more :eek:...

    so we give them another wage cut :mad:...

    ahhhhhhhh my head is spinning :confused:....

    oh but then the Public Service are spending all their wages up the north so a wage cut wont affect our tax income :rolleyes:....

    now I can rest easy ;).....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Bruce2008 wrote: »
    I just thought of something... a rare happening in itself...

    If the Public Service are so overpaid :D...

    and we give them a wage cut :(...

    then they will have less to spend :(....

    so there will be less taxes coming in :eek:...

    so we have to reduce spending more :eek:...

    so we give them another wage cut :mad:...

    ahhhhhhhh my head is spinning :confused:....

    oh but then the Public Service are spending all their wages up the north so a wage cut wont affect our tax income :rolleyes:....

    now I can rest easy ;).....


    you must be a teacher? your maths is all funny



    whats better?

    scenario A:
    take a loan of 100 > payout 100 > tax 50
    result: 50 in coffers + owe 100 + owe 10 interest on this ( total of -60 )

    scenario B:
    take a loan of 70 > payout 70 > tax 35
    result: 35 in coffers + owe 70 + owe 7.5 interest on this (total of -52.5)


    the public sector gravy riders forget that the money taken in debt to pay them

    will have to be paid back

    + interest

    and it will have to be paid back by wealth/exports generate by the private sector



    i swear it maddens me to explain simple economics


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 236 ✭✭Bruce2008


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    i swear it maddens me to explain simple economics

    Then don't do it.....

    I'm not a teacher by the way... just someone that has a sense of humour...

    not someone with the time to spout boring maths and expect anyone else to be actually interested in it...

    I wait in anticapation for your reply...:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭damo


    'boring maths'

    ok.....so tell me, where can we find 500 million euro a week to without reducing public sector pay?

    enough of this already.....bring in the imf.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    damo wrote: »
    ... enough of this already.....bring in the imf.

    No chance.

    Fortunately.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 510 ✭✭✭seclachi


    damo wrote: »
    'boring maths'

    ok.....so tell me, where can we find 500 million euro a week to without reducing public sector pay?

    enough of this already.....bring in the imf.

    Im guessing the EU would kicking before the IMF did, they dont want any embarrassment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭damo


    No chance?

    Why is there no chance exactly?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 236 ✭✭Bruce2008


    damo wrote: »
    'boring maths'

    ok.....so tell me, where can we find 500 million euro a week to without reducing public sector pay?

    enough of this already.....bring in the imf.


    The only thing that will interest ye lot come budget day is how hard will the government hit the public sector...

    then ye will all go away happy....:D

    until sometime later in the middle of a daydream you will suddenly realise every other cut the government has snuck in underneath all the talk of public sector pay...

    then and only then will you realise you have been duped...:eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭damo


    Bruce2008 wrote: »
    The only thing that will interest ye lot come budget day is how hard will the government hit the public sector...

    then ye will all go away happy....:D

    until sometime later in the middle of a daydream you will suddenly realise every other cut the government has snuck in underneath all the talk of public sector pay...

    then and only then will you realise you have been duped...:eek:


    Bruce,

    I'm really not sure after reading your posts that you have a fundamental grasp of the economic reality that faces ireland.

    What will interest me come budget day is not how hard the government hits the poor 'victimised' (my arse) public sector, what will interest me is what steps we have taken towards economic recovery. The international markets need to see signifcant steps taken to address the budget deficit so that they will keep lending us money (because you do understand that the country is bankrupt, right?)

    I'll be interested to see if we have taken steps towards regaining our lost competitiveness in order to attract foreign investment back to the country some day. We need job and wealth creation in the real economy (the private sector) in order to enable us to pay the public sector.

    So, you didnt answer my previous question - How do we go about addressing the massive budget deficit without reducing pay and numbers in the public sector? If you're so opposed to these cuts what alternatives do you offer?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 438 ✭✭gerry28


    Personally speaking i'm willing to give nothing away... they can (and prob will) take more money of me in the budget. They will take it of me kicking and screaming though.

    I can't swallow all this 'share the pain', 'parity of pain', 'pay my share' rubbish.

    Are the really rich offering to 'pay their share', 'share the pain'.... not a chance - many of them are not even willing to pay their taxes here. Has any of the people who lead us down this path offered anything??

    In germany the rich offered to put together a fund to help the country. Our rich have done a runner with their celtic tiger gold.

    But all the talk is of 'parity of pain' for the ordinary plebs like me on 28K a year.

    I don't really care if i lose my job in the PS. After I pay my mortgage and running costs for my car to get to work, i'm left with between 150 and 180 a week. Whats it all for.... friends of mine getting rent allowance and dole are as well off.

    This country is ruined as it is - maybe we'd be better off it it all crashed and we built it up from scratch again.


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