Questions from a Retailer

murphaph

Gurgle wrote: »

If you're buying Irish products, they should not be more expensive in Ireland than NI. If they are, theres something seriously wrong.

There is something seriously wrong-the cost of doing business is way too high in the south.

Item costs €1 from ROI factory gate in ROI.
Same item costs £0.90 from ROI factory gate in NI (as 90p buys 1 Euro!)
You buy it in ROI for €2 (retailer's rent/insurance/wages etc. costs (x) + his actual profit (z) = €1)
You buy it in NI for £1.50 (€1.35) (retailer's rent/insurance/wages etc. costs (y) + his actual profit (z) = £0.60 (€0.67))

So the northern retailer takes the same profit z, but has lower costs associated with running his business. The northern retailer can actually have a better lifestyle while charging less because his own profit goes much further in NI than his southern counterpart's! He can drive a merc-his southern counterpart a VW.

It's ALL about the cost of doing business which is undoubtedly HIGHER in the south. This is a fundamental problem which needs sorting for Ireland to ever get back to competitiveness!

Tipp Man

murphaph wrote: »

There is something seriously wrong-the cost of doing business is way too high in the south.

Item costs €1 from ROI factory gate in ROI.
Same item costs £0.90 from ROI factory gate in NI (as 90p buys 1 Euro!)
You buy it in ROI for €2 (retailer's rent/insurance/wages etc. costs (x) + his actual profit (z) = €1)
You buy it in NI for £1.50 (€1.35) (retailer's rent/insurance/wages etc. costs (y) + his actual profit (z) = £0.60 (€0.67))

So the northern retailer takes the same profit z, but has lower costs associated with running his business. The northern retailer can actually have a better lifestyle while charging less because his own profit goes much further in NI than his southern counterpart's! He can drive a merc-his southern counterpart a VW.

It's ALL about the cost of doing business which is undoubtedly HIGHER in the south. This is a fundamental problem which needs sorting for Ireland to ever get back to competitiveness!

Nail head bang

Jaysoose

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Everyone is saying were being ripped off, I think you have to look at the bigger picute,
for example let's say a pint costs €3.50 up North, the northern guy on minimum wage earn €6.40 an hour. He earns €51.20 for an 8hr day. He can have 14 pints after work and have enough for a bag of chips on the walk home.
Meanwhile he's cousin in Kildare is also on minimum wage but earns €8.65 and hour, He earns €62.90 for a days work. He can have 13 pints after work at €4.50 a pint and have enough for some chips but has to walk home as well.

The guy who makes less money can afford to have more pints than the guy who earns more. It dosen't make sense but then disaster strikes, both guys loose there jobs, now which cousin can afford more pints?

If we want a cushy enough society we have to pay for it, I think that's the point eveyone is missing, fine spend all your money up north but don't expect your perks to remain the same if your sending all your money out of the country. Expect to be penalised for all thoes cross border shoppers come budget time.

Its all well and good making up numbers to give some example of pints in relation to chips etc. Nobody forced the retailers to pay the massive rents, why are they not out on the streets demanding vaue for money on the business rates they pay? why are they not lobbying the goverment to reduce VAT? They have been hiking up the prices in direct relation to their costs to maintain profits at all costs and no thought was giving to the consumer at any stage.

Now the Op wants us to feel sorry for the poor retailers as they are struggling because people got sick of it and are quite rightly heading up north, sorry but im not buying it.

If the Publicans, Retailers, Car dealers etc etc had the common sense to look at the situation from a point of view other than their own and tried to understand that the consumer will only put up with paying over the odds for so long they may have been better positioned to abosorb the current downturn and survive.

Lets take the Vintners who in their wisdom looked for a Price Freeze during a recession and incredibly tried to dress it up as if they were doing it for the customers!!

The Car dealers are now looking for a scrappage scheme to save them after doing nothing for the consumer in regards to the Illegal tax that is VRT.

Im not for people going under or losing jobs but in all honesty coming crying to the consumer now and calling people shopping up north Un-patriotic is a joke....and not a very funny one.

murphaph

Jaysoose wrote: »

Its all well and good making up numbers to give some example of pints in relation to chips etc. Nobody forced the retailers to pay the massive rents, why are they not out on the streets demanding vaue for money on the business rates they pay?

I'm guessing because many of them are trying to keep their businesses afloat and can't afford to take days off work?

Jaysoose wrote: »

why are they not lobbying the goverment to reduce VAT?

Aren't they?

Jaysoose wrote: »

They have been hiking up the prices in direct relation to their costs to maintain profits at all costs and no thought was giving to the consumer at any stage.

A retailer who gives no thought to the consumer should have no customers. No?

Jaysoose wrote: »

The Car dealers are now looking for a scrappage scheme to save them after doing nothing for the consumer in regards to the Illegal tax that is VRT.

SIMI has always called for the scrapping of VRT. Why would you think any different??

By the way, I'm not for one second suggesting that no retailers etc. price gouged during the Celtic Pyramid (I love that expression) but the reality of the here and now is that many retailers can't reduce prices further due to the exorbitant costs in comparison to the north. Many are legally obliged to their landlords for long periods and face legal action if they attempt to renege on their leases. They are legally obliged to collect VAT at 21% (on almost everything!), to pay a higher minimum wage than the north, to pay higher energy costs and to pay higher rates bills.

These costs are inescapable for the retailer. The customer has a choice-they can indeed go north and I personally wouldn't condemn anyone for doing so as it may actually be what's needed to force our government to lower rates, VAT, minimum wage etc. etc. to come into line with Northern ireland. The retailer however has no choice on his cost base. He can't move his shop to Newry and keep his customers in Bantry.

MaceFace

Tipp Man wrote: »

Nail head bang

And in true style we end up back at the beginning with a question I posed ages ago.......

Why is Ireland so much more expensive.
VAT is 6% higher.
Minimum wage is 40% higher (?)
Rent is higher (how much)?
Insurance, Rates etc?

Is everything more expensive here or is there one thing that is causing most of the price differencial?

murphaph

MaceFace wrote: »

And in true style we end up back at the beginning with a question I posed ages ago.......

Why is Ireland so much more expensive.
VAT is 6% higher.
Minimum wage is 40% higher (?)
Rent is higher (how much)?
Insurance, Rates etc?

Is everything more expensive here or is there one thing that is causing most of the price differencial?

Everything is more expensive but I suppose it mostly goes back to the complete over valuation of property and the willingness or otherwise of a government to let those who bought in at the top of the market to suffer now.

In my cold calculating opinion we basically MUST let those people suffer. If the government was prepared to let those people suffer (ie, through high mortgage repayments relative to their new lower salaries) then we could move forward.

I am a property owner btw, I would expect to suffer too (to a lesser extent than someone with massive mortgage(s) but the nation needs someone to suffer as our standard of living is too high relative to what we do for the rest of the world!).

If the government allows wages to fall (through their own cuts in the PS and through a lowering of minimum wage for the private sector, combined with a lowering in social welfare payments) then we can again regain competitiveness with NI and the rest of Europe. We used to be very competitive about 20 years ago remember!

Jaysoose

murphaph wrote: »

I'm guessing because many of them are trying to keep their businesses afloat and can't afford to take days off work?

Seriously... thats the best you have? Rates being high are not a new thing

Aren't they?.....Typically irish response to a problem, bury your head in the sand until it goes tits up then look for reform, were have they been on this since lenihan admitted his mistake?


A retailer who gives no thought to the consumer should have no customers. No? your answering my point for me here...see the traffic going into newry


SIMI has always called for the scrapping of VRT. Why would you think any different?? They were looking for a Reduction in this article from 4 years ago not a scrapping of the scheme.

By the way, I'm not for one second suggesting that no retailers etc. price gouged during the Celtic Pyramid (I love that expression) but the reality of the here and now is that many retailers can't reduce prices further due to the exorbitant costs in comparison to the north. Many are legally obliged to their landlords for long periods and face legal action if they attempt to renege on their leases. They are legally obliged to collect VAT at 21% (on almost everything!), to pay a higher minimum wage than the north, to pay higher energy costs and to pay higher rates bills.

These costs are inescapable for the retailer. The customer has a choice-they can indeed go north and I personally wouldn't condemn anyone for doing so as it may actually be what's needed to force our government to lower rates, VAT, minimum wage etc. etc. to come into line with Northern ireland. The retailer however has no choice on his cost base. He can't move his shop to Newry and keep his customers in Bantry.

We agree on a lot of things the retailers need to put pressure on the Landlords, county councils and the goverment before anything will get done but as usual it has been left until the last possible moment and a lot of people have /will go under before the message sinks in.

sunnyside

MaceFace wrote: »

Do you ever shop local (even to buy milk)? Do you own a house? car?
Buy a CD? DVD? XBox? Camera? Coffee? Biscuits? Sandwich? Go out for dinner? Stay in a hotel?

What my point is, is that it was/is impossible to live in this country and not have to overpay for something.

Yes to most of the above, but not the items in bold. Those I would internet order.

Tipp Man wrote: »

I personally try to buy Irish products in Irish shops as much as possible

I buy Irish products in the supermarket because I prefer the taste of a lot of them to imported brands. I was in Lidl this morning to buy something from the weekly offers. I never go there much but had a look around while I was there, I didn't think the food was any cheaper than other supermarkets because of all the special offers on brand names every week.

drunkmonkey

Jaysoose wrote: »

We agree on a lot of things the retailers need to put pressure on the Landlords, county councils and the goverment before anything will get done .

The government needs to stop propping up the propery market, that will force the rents down. They would be down a lot by now if it wasn't the con that is nama delaying the inevetable.

K-9

murphaph wrote: »

If the government allows wages to fall (through their own cuts in the PS and through a lowering of minimum wage for the private sector, combined with a lowering in social welfare payments) then we can again regain competitiveness with NI and the rest of Europe. We used to be very competitive about 20 years ago remember!

Even in the mid 90's when the Punt was worth more than Sterling (as it would be now) exports still did ok. Main reason was our costs where still competitive and probably cheaper than the UK.

Now ESB, oil, Wages, Rents etc. have all sky rocketed. We aren't competitive anymore. Leases will come down like Rents, they simply have to. Wage costs in the Private Sector are starting to fall but needs to be done on that. Cutting costs is the only way to get out of this, both for our standard of living and exports.

murphaph

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The government needs to stop propping up the propery market, that will force the rents down. They would be down a lot by now if it wasn't the con that is nama delaying the inevetable.

I'm not sure how NAMA is going to pan out but certainly if it has the effect of artificially keeping property prices higher than they would otherwise be then it is a bad thing.

I'm a small scale landlord, one private house (which used to be my home and is mortgaged) and some commercial property (inherited). I know I will be personally worse off if property prices and rents fall, but I can see the bigger picture-if the costs of business in Ireland don't fall in general then my tenants will have no customers and I will eventually have no tenants. No winners there.

We are uncompetitive as a nation ay all levels and we will have friction between the different areas of society as prices begin to fall. I have already lowered rents and expect to lower them further but I know there are plenty landlords out there who are mortgaged to the hilt and reducing rents will mean they can't afford their mortgage repayments. Eventually either their tenants will go out of business trying to pay the high rents and then the landlord will default or the landlord jumps first and cuts rent. It's a sh!tty dilemma for anyone to be in but something's got to give for the economy to restart.

Tipp Man

MaceFace wrote: »

And in true style we end up back at the beginning with a question I posed ages ago.......

Why is Ireland so much more expensive.
VAT is 6% higher.
Minimum wage is 40% higher (?)
Rent is higher (how much)?
Insurance, Rates etc?

Is everything more expensive here or is there one thing that is causing most of the price differencial?

You can add energy costs to that list as well (ESB are robbing us)

Can anyone thing of anything (absolutely anything) that is cheaper to a business in Ireland than across the border?? Petrol maybe, anything else??

KindOfIrish

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'd like to see a tax on all roads to northern ireland, €50 each way for non northern residents.

I would pay 50 one way and never return here again:D

newman10

Jaysoose wrote: »

Now the Op wants us to feel sorry for the poor retailers as they are struggling because people got sick of it and are quite rightly heading up north, sorry but im not buying it.

I am not looking for you to feel sorry for me as a retailer because I have responded to this new situation.

All I am asking is what part did you play in making Ireland an extreemly expensive place to do business and before I am called Rip Off , what place did or do you still play in making us expensive

MysticalRain

For what it's worth, I was paid peanuts during the Celtic Tiger and lived within my means as best I could. So I certainly have no guilty conscience when it comes to shopping online or up the north. Not all of us got filthy rich ripping off other people during those years.

Taxipete29

newman10 wrote: »

I am not looking for you to feel sorry for me as a retailer because I have responded to this new situation.

All I am asking is what part did you play in making Ireland an extreemly expensive place to do business and before I am called Rip Off , what place did or do you still play in making us expensive

Its always been cheaper to shop up North since long before the Celtic Tiger pushed up the cost of doing business, so what was the excuse for the years that preceeded the boom for prices being too high???

drunkmonkey

:Dlol @ the taxi driver, he had no part in the whole mess either..

Taxipete29

drunkmonkey wrote: »

:Dlol @ the taxi driver, he had no part in the whole mess either..

I charged the price the regulator set and that everyone was prepared to pay. When business started to drop I alligned myself with a firm offering discounts hence now part of the solution.

bridgitt

newman10 wrote: »

All I am asking is what part did you play in making Ireland an extreemly expensive place to do business and before I am called Rip Off , what place did or do you still play in making us expensive

People here will not admit they play a part in making us expensive. They will say they were paid peanuts during the Celtic Tiger, they will say they are being paid peanuts now ....see the three people on Prime Time the other night....one young single public servant on 55,000 euro a year was whinging about her pay and how she will not take a cut. She is on just slightly more than the average Irish public sector wage but that wage is enough to pay almost four retail workers in N. Ireland / UK, which is a G7 economy.

mrgaa1

when you look through all the posts you see a trend: cut wages, cut VAT, cut rents, cut cut cut. The issue is that repayments e.g. car loan, mortgage payments, etc... are staying the same.

So although we recognise that business costs must come down to remain competitive but when the employees wages are cut so far that repayments can't be made then a lot of people will be out of homes, lose their cars etc...

Whats the solution then? A solution to the above would solve a lot of problems. This country is at a pivotal point - do we pay more and tax more or pay less and tax less.

Dr Galen

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Its always been cheaper to shop up North since long before the Celtic Tiger pushed up the cost of doing business, so what was the excuse for the years that preceeded the boom for prices being too high???

this is actually a very valid point

i was born and grew up in Newry and you were guaranteed that on a Saturday the town would have large numbers of southern based shoppers. Apart from a blips when currency fluctuations make it cheaper to be in the south, this was common until I left Newry to come down here in the mid-late 90's

Gurgle

mrgaa1 wrote: »

So although we recognise that business costs must come down to remain competitive but when the employees wages are cut so far that repayments can't be made then a lot of people will be out of homes, lose their cars etc...

Whats the solution then? A solution to the above would solve a lot of problems. This country is at a pivotal point - do we pay more and tax more or pay less and tax less.

Yes, well put.

But the government can't change private sector wages, they can't 're-value' our mortgages and car loans.

Is it fair to slash public sector wages across the board, when the costs of living that drove those wages up are still in place?

Jaysoose

newman10 wrote: »

I am not looking for you to feel sorry for me as a retailer because I have responded to this new situation.

All I am asking is what part did you play in making Ireland an extreemly expensive place to do business and before I am called Rip Off , what place did or do you still play in making us expensive

Well considering im originally from the north and have lived and worked in dublin for the last 3 years and regularly shop up north or online not as much as you would think.

Maybe im different as i see the differences first hand but it cannot be denied that when all the costs have been accounted for there is a sigificant difference in the price of goods which still remains unexplained by the majority of retailers.

K-9

mrgaa1 wrote: »

when you look through all the posts you see a trend: cut wages, cut VAT, cut rents, cut cut cut. The issue is that repayments e.g. car loan, mortgage payments, etc... are staying the same.

So although we recognise that business costs must come down to remain competitive but when the employees wages are cut so far that repayments can't be made then a lot of people will be out of homes, lose their cars etc...

Whats the solution then? A solution to the above would solve a lot of problems. This country is at a pivotal point - do we pay more and tax more or pay less and tax less.

Everybody loses if things are cut, wages, Govt. (hopefully for the short term), landlords, etc.

The only ones who doubly screw us are banks!

Jaysoose wrote: »

Well considering im originally from the north and have lived and worked in dublin for the last 3 years and regularly shop up north or online not as much as you would think.

Maybe im different as i see the differences first hand but it cannot be denied that when all the costs have been accounted for there is a sigificant difference in the price of goods which still remains unexplained by the majority of retailers.

You not think everything is dearer for them? Wholesalers, property, ESB, wages etc.

MaceFace

mrgaa1 wrote: »

when you look through all the posts you see a trend: cut wages, cut VAT, cut rents, cut cut cut. The issue is that repayments e.g. car loan, mortgage payments, etc... are staying the same.

So although we recognise that business costs must come down to remain competitive but when the employees wages are cut so far that repayments can't be made then a lot of people will be out of homes, lose their cars etc...

Whats the solution then? A solution to the above would solve a lot of problems. This country is at a pivotal point - do we pay more and tax more or pay less and tax less.

Thats called tough luck.
Simple fact is we have priced ourselves out of the market in many things and for the sake of the next generation we need to take the pain now. That means many people losing their homes and cars and the sooner people realise that, the better.

zootroid

newman10 wrote: »

Do you work for the Commercial Landlord or are you a member of the Landlords family who is still refusing to reduce the rent.

This is the one part of your post I would be concerned with. You would think market forces would drive rents down, although I accept it is not easy to change locations, like say a person moving house, so you threatening to move your premises could seem an empty threat.

I always thought retailers enjoy high margins (particularly those that sell clothes), but can see how rent could be such a high overhead.

Are you tied into a long term lease?