3.3, T9 Gear and Catajism!

Nick_oliveri

With the new patch comes the ability to farm Emblems of triumph easier and grab yersel some ilvl245 raiding gear quickly. The dailies are being replaced with the ability to redeem 2 emblems per random heroic instance (?). Also the lfg system is being overhauled, a welcome change really. So I come here not with news of the patch, the notes I assume you've all read already.

What think ye? I have only recently got back into playing wow. rolled a DK and hit 80 for the first time. This makes it somewhat easier for me to get the gear for better 10man/25man raids. This assumes of course that the Vendor items will not be getting a markup in emblems required.Really all I am doing now is logging in, doing the Totc dailys, JC dailys and the HC daily. And maybe do WG when the quests reset or the odd raid with my small guild.

Anyone else think that Cataclysm is coming very soon with this introduction? Or is this to level the playing field when Icecrown Citadel opens up? Either way I am sure that most of you will be slightly miffed or even pissed with this new change. Please, comment!

The normal Wrath of the Lich King Daily Random Dungeon option will award two [Emblems of Triumph] no more than once a day.
Continuing to complete Wrath of the Lich King Heroic instances using the Daily Random Dungeon option will award players two additional Emblems of Triumph each time.
Daily Heroic and normal dungeon quests have been removed. These quests have been replaced with weekly raid quests (see the "Quests" section for details).
Level-appropriate rewards will be offered to players who choose the Random Dungeon option for pre-Wrath of the Lich King dungeons.
Players can be placed in a group for a random dungeon no more than once every 15 minutes.
Random Dungeon rewards will be placed in each player's inventory automatically upon completion of the dungeon (final boss killed). A pop-up notification will display any rewards earned through the Dungeon Finder.

TheDoc

I cant wait to be honest

It will let me gear my druid up quickly with T9 healing and dps.

And DK with dps and tanking gear.

Can also get my Paladin geared in healing and tanking.

My warlock is already up there with good gear.

I cant wait, because it will give me reason to put all my game time into wow, I'll always have something to do. I have gone a bit lax lately, no raiding guild, pugs annoying me, in a bit of a rut. Not arsed with the dailies and the likes.

This means i can just get stuck into heroics constantly, with the cross server lfg, means i wont wait too long

][cEMAN**

It's great for new players and people with alts, to give them a chance to get geared up quickly. There's a downside to this as well though. Gear used to be a grade of how experienced people were - they had to do certain instances enough times to get more than 1 drop. Then there came boosting, but with achievements. People started to use achievements as well as a way of seeing who knew the encounter.

Now gear comes from doing basic heroics, and achievements can be boosted the minute you hit 80, if you have some friends. You could go the whole way through a 25 man instance not knowing what's going on, and learning nothing. You could be dead seconds into every fight, and it wouldn't matter. You'd still get the achievements and the gear.

So now it's harder to judge how good players actually are. Guilds used to be formed based on level of experience and ability. The better you got, you moved up guild levels, or your whole guild progressed. Now the flooding of new apps with little ways to learn how much people know about their toon (apart from maybe asking gemming enchanting or rotation questions), means that there's a larger fail factor in higher level guilds. This tends to annoy the more experienced players and puts doubt in others. Can cause splits or unrest.

Your guild is only as good as its weakest raider.

So yeah, great for alts in an already established guild - bad for recruiting and training people based on their level of ability.

Nick_oliveri

Both of you have good points. I'm torn on the issue. The one thing that really stinks of piss, as Iceman has noted, is the boosts people get from their friends in raids and the like. Items aren't always likely to drop but you still get to get into achievement bitches raids. Achievements were never really an accurate representation of skill, and they created an elitist atmosphere. Gear on the other hand, proper gear was a good indication.

But then again, every ****er (with decent gear) should get a chance and there should be more room for (or an easier and more streamlined way for) you to kick some twat who didn't take heed to the tactics in raid chat or pulled a mob. And let someone else join. I have basically no experience in 10man or 25man raids. I'm only starting them. And atm, only guildies or friends will give the invite. Link achiev plz kthanxbye....

I mean, what the hell, can you not just point out tacts in raid chat? **** your achievements. We done Naxx 10man spider quarter with the guild, my first 10man. Tacts were said in RC for Grand Widow Faerlina. After trying one tactic (wipe) we went the normal way and killed a worshiper when she frenzied. And that worked, nobody messed up and most didn't know tacts before they went in.

Off topic and all but that really pisses me off. With this patch I can really understand and sympathise with people who have worked their bollocks off to farm emblems in daily hc's or gear in 10/25's. Maybe there's a new tier incoming?

fatjebus

Load of ****e, couldn't have made it easier for bad players if they tried.

Long gone are the times of wiping for weeks on a boss getting the loot and accomplishing something, now its everybody rolling around in the same gear farming daily's and still being utterly utterly bad when it comes to high content raiding, SUP!

TheDoc

The elitism in wow still just annoys me.

I spent alot of my years in wow pvping, leveling new characters, because I simply could not get recruited to high end raiding guilds, I couldnt put the time into spending hours doing 25 and 40 mans.

In recent time I was able to, in TBC I was able to put some time into raiding. That was from the slightly easier accesability for gear and to raid.

From that, I got a small taste for it, and I loved it, I said come wotlk, I'd really try my best.

Wotlk came around, and things were going slow for me, low pop server, no guilds, no friends. Then I moved to outland and my whole wow experience changed.

I slowly began to be accepted by a very high skilled group of irish players, who gave alot of help with gear suggestions, builds, boss tactics etc. I got thoroughly engrossed in raiding and the idea behind it. I worked hard to get good gear, so that I might get the chance to impress guilds and get recruitment, so I could have a steady consistent raiding pattern.

Blizzard continued to make things a little easier to get gear, and this in turn, made me try harder. I started getting the gear, and started to get brought to larger raids and more raids. My skill started to increase and increase, I started knowing how to do things, I learned how to do things, I started understanding my class and how to operate in a raid enviroment.

Saying its simply " allowing scrubs to get good gear" is not true, and a very simplistic and broad sweeping statement.

In alot of cases, like me, it gives a chance for us to get past the first step in raiding, and then put the work in to keep going.

You all have it easy because your in guilds, you have a tight niche team that knows each other, how they play, and you go and do great things. I pug everything, everything. Theres no consistency, I might get a week where I cant do some of the easy raids, because there just isnt strong enough groups, you join one down one boss, then keep whiping, your lockout is saved.

The high level raiding is a niche and you need to remember that. "Elitists" are always a niche, everywhere, and wow is the same.

I spent 3 years paying for a game, to experience the levelling experience, I have every right to experience the end game content as much as anyone else. There is still means there for the top guild niche to be tested in completing some end game content, but I don't think its right that those that cant get there, should be excluded.

Blizzard are listening to the wider community, and see that there is a small percentage who qualify for " top raiding players", I believe a percentage released two months ago stated 13% ( cant find link was on mmo).

That means over 70%, dont or cant experience the end game content at the highest level, and that does need to change.

In a way, its better for guilds. They dont have to waste time gearing characters, they can take in players, and work on them, the player, and make them better, and if its not working then fine gone.

Look at me for example, I'm not the best geared or I'm not the best player, but I'm not an idiot and I have a clue. With some guidance and help, I could become a good player, who knows. Ive played this game 5 years on my own.

I'm sure there is more people out there like me, guildless, who need the helping hand, and need the consistent eviroment a guild provides. And over a short period of time, the players skill could sky rocket.

In the 6 months or so I've been on outland and been hanging around the irish community there, posting here and the likes, I've learned more then in the previous 4 1/2 years, and my skill has shot up over 300% easily...and theres no reason that wont continue, easy gear, means I've a better chance of getting into the mediums which can make me a better players, not having a jizz because I've got T9

TechnoPool

gears easy to get, 'skill' isnt.

Berns

TechnoPool wrote: »

gears easy to get, 'skill' isnt.

some :rolleyes: I still needa decent cloak and trinket :P

TechnoPool

ha touche!

Karl Hungus

Honestly, I think the whole "Back in my day, epics were hard to get" thing really wore thin a long time ago. I was reading a thread on the official forums about the proto drakes from Ulduar achievements, and quite a few people were moaning they hadn't been removed yet. It's almost as if these people want the gates close as soon as they've got theirs so that they can feel that bit more special. From my perspective, it's silly to care whether someone got something further down the line.

And I'm looking at it the same way with the T9 gear. Now, it's going to be ilevel232 stuff, with a few 245 items, which could all be got from doing enough daily heroic quests anyway, so I really don't think it's that big a deal at all. People who've never raided were already running around with some T9 gear a few weeks after 3.2 was released, just from heroics. It's such a small deal that it just beggars belief how anyone would give out about it, it's just absolutely petty.

][cEMAN**

TheDoc, it's easy to complain that nobody gave you a chance, but from the sounds of it, you just coasted along till someone told you what to do.

You claim it's elitism that people wouldn't accept you into their guilds, but you explain that you didn't know your class, you didn't have the experience (pugs maybe?), and that nobody gave you a chance.

This is a game that you play yourself. Nobody plays it for you. If you expect everyone to tell you what to do, rather than learn it for yourself, then that's just selfish. That's not elitism. Guild leaders aren't just concerned with YOUR feelings. They are running a group of people who have all shown they put in the effort to learn how to play themselves, rather than having their hands held.

OK wow is really like a job. People hate that concept, but it's not an fps you jump in for a 10 min game then walk away. It's an MMORPG. You get out of it what you put in.

Imagine you walk into a big company that's doing quite well, and you tell the guy hiring new starts that "Oh, I don't know anything about the job i'm applying for, but can you please train me in everything I need to know?"

Fair enough there are some jobs that do that, but look at the jobs. Low level, entry stuff. That's what university is for - learning how to do it yourself, then joining with others who need you already knowing what to do, and not holding your hand the whole way.

Wow is a game, but the idea of it is the same. Wow mimics the real world in so many ways. Dedication pays off. Economic ideas are the same. Attitude towards others gets you accepted or ignored.

What you see as elitism is just life tbh.

Edit- Just a response to Karl's post. I know what you mean about assholes who want to get something, and deny everyone else it. That's what I can't stand. I'd love to get to a certain level and help everyone get there, but it's just not possible. You can't help everyone. I'd like to see everyone at the same level, but I don't think they should just have it handed to them.

As for gear, that's been complained about for a good while now. This isn't new complaints that should beggar your belief because the upgrades in ilevel is so little. Rather, it's a continuing problem blizzard are sticking with to gear everyone equally and not try at all to get stuff. To have things handed to them as a reward for their subscription. Give money, get epics.

I spent TBC in a guild that didn't progress very far at all. In Vanilla, we didn't get past the first boss in AQ40. But y'know what? I loved it! I didn't feel I DESERVED to be in naxx, and have full T3 gear in vanilla. I put in the effort, I learnt my class, and I got out of it what I put in. When I had gotten better either the whole guild had gotten better, and we progressed as a whole, or I was of a stage I could apply to better guilds.

There are people out there who will help. In game, or out - just look at wowwiki, look at elitistjerks, look at mmo-champion. These are all websites not setup by blizzard, but by like minded people who share information. Do you think people go into raids now to learn the fights from scratch? To learn what attacks every boss does? No! You have PTR people all mapping fights out for you before you ever set foot inside. You don't have to really learn the fight any more. You just have to read the instructions on how to get from start to finish. I'm not complaining about that, i'm greatful - though I do miss the days when you had to learn these things for yourself.

My point is, you can't say people didn't help, you just didn't look hard enough to get the help. When it comes to ilevel of gear, it's not just about who has what. I don't begrudge people having the same level gear as me. I just dislike the asshole behaviour of people who don't know what they're doing, suddenly having epeen because they have the same level gear as me, and think they're as good at it as me. I'm not being elitist there, it's a simple case of knowing what i'm doing vs just jumping in with 2 feet and wiping a raid.

People didn't like it, but the old system of being able to tell how experienced and dedicated people were by their gear, was quite good. If you saw someone with a certain item, you knew they'd been to the fight. If you saw someone with multiple items from there, you new they'd done it enough times to earn the stuff, and they should know it by now - no excuses. Now you have people doing 5 mans to get emblems to get gear that would have been gotten by doing certain bosses, or hard modes. Yet they don't have any experience of it. So they get raid spots for showing their gear. Then they die in the raid, but the raid gets the boss down. Then they have the achievement.

In the end it's a false way of showing ability you don't have. This in turn wastes the time of guilds and groups that NEED a certain level of player to progress. People who don't know what they're doing, actually destroy guilds. Why are there so many guilds going up, and wearing thin the amount of good players across a low populated server? Because idiots who don't know what they're doing keep getting into the good guilds, and through numbers, eventually force a gdisband because the people who do know what they're doing lose faith with having to explain every fight every single time.

I've heard too often about elitist players ruining the game for some casual players, because they feel left out. Quite frankly, part timers who expect everything handed to them, are who I blame for ruining this game. Go play a 30m rotation game like Battlefield. Get out of that what you put in - 5 mins and a /quit!

Magill

Gotta agree with iceman here, i personally loved the "Learning" and gearing up part of wow, doing abit of research on my class (I've changed mains 4 times since starting wow) and boss fights, then putting it into use, trying to be the best without having to ask for help.

Anyone that wants people to teach them how to play IS a scrub.

TheDoc

Some things you just don't learn without raid experience.

And its always nice to have a little help.

I eventually found out about elitist jerks and the likes and gave them a read. But I think its nice to have opinions, like if I'm stuck in two minds with gear, to have an opinion.

I dont think much for dmg spreadsheets and theory craft, I think its not a very valid way of putting you in the right direction.

I'm a big believer that if you operate in a consistent enviroment, surrounded by a certain standard of people, you yourself will pull yourself to that standard, or will fall by the wayside.

My point isnt having someone hold my hand through the game, the point is, that you only become really good through help.

I met guys who thought they were amazing at Warcraft III, who played by themselves for years, and I beat them very easily. I then became friends with these guys and we helped each other out and the overall standard improved.

The same for really good FPS teams, everyone has the initial ability, but that ability needs to be chipped away, and polished, until it becomes beautiful. The same goes for WoW.

Theres always potential and ability in most people, but its about having those abilities fine tuned.

"Anyone that wants people to teach them how to play IS a scrub."

Thats is a silly comment. I would gladly take time as I have in recent months to lend a hand to people, and we all do. I was very raw when I came to outland, but the point was I thought I was doing the right thing, but it took someone else to say to me "your not".

Operating weekly in pugs wont give you the consistent enviroment you need to become a better player, and thats very much what this game is about. Aswell as progressing your character, you need to progress yourself, to become a better player, and to understand the way the game works better.

Some are faster then others, like I said only really within the last 8 months have I started understanding the concept of raiding properly, and becoming aware of what benefits more when it comes to things like crit vs haste and fully understanding why you put what into your talent build.

I fear you missed a very big point of my post. And I think the instant generalisation of " Scrubs" is probably very much the reason I was unable to raid the previous 4 years.

Everyones playing experience has been drasticly different. And its noticeable playing presently, if your not pumping out 7k dps your a **** warlock. Thats incorrect and wrong. Not everyone is at the ability to put those numbers out. Regardless of gear, skill levels might not be up to par.

Alot of people forget that there are some people who are simply better then others, and there are some that simply dont want to know about you if your not a pro. Everyone started this game ****, and everyone gradually grew better. That curve of improvement, is different between all, and usually, through various sources.

Those that played with friends probably had more input around them to further their development. Some had strong guilds, which is a serious benefit either way, you have help at hand. If you tell me in your guild you've never asked for help or giving help, your a liar, and shouldn't be in a guild. As much as this is a solo game, its a very much a social phenomenon. And I think the likes of elitist jerks and the likes have taken away something from the game similar to what Battlegrounds did for world pvp.

Magill

I can honestly say i've never asked for help, mainly because my guild is 10man and im the only rogue and was the only lock when i played. WoW isnt a hard game like css, where experience counts alot more towards your skill level than in wow. If you just read what gems / spec's / enchants etc to use in wow, and how to pull off your rotation then theres not an awful lot more you need to know. I honestly dont mind helping ppl out, but when its really really stupid things like a retarded spec or gemming for stamina... i just give up.

TheDoc

Magill wrote: »

when its really really stupid things like or gemming for stamina... i just give up.

WEll I'm not in need of that much help

TechnoPool

well depends what you play, you might want to gem for stamina :P

Nehaxak

I'm just annoyed at the changes they're making to fishing
In 3.3 anyone, no matter their fishing skill, will be able to fish from the fish pools and catch the fish from that pool regardless of their fishing skill.

What's the bloody point then of levelling up fishing skill in the first place now if anyone can just come along and fish the high level pools ?

StinkyMunkey

Ive played WoW for a yr and a half and then quit. Then i came back about a yr ago. WoW quiet simply put is a game that people play for enjoyment, and some have more time to "learn their class" then others.

I personally dont have the time to put into raiding, but does that mean i should be retricted to a certain item level once i hit 80 - i dont think so. I did play a hunter at the start, but was never very good with it. I now use a dk as my main and have a ok grasp of how to play the class.

I myself couldnt care less about how "skilled" the guy beside me is, to me its all about the enjoyment of being actually able to play and slowly but surely plod my way through the game.

People who have alot of spare time to play WoW and think its all about skill and who deserves what for doing whatever, really need to understand its just a game, that the vast majority of people play it as a fun pastime and cant be arsed spending hours reading this and that forum to enlighten themselves about every little detail about WoW.

If you a very "skilled" player it really makes no odds whether the other guy your fighting has the same gear. The "skilled" player will always come out on top anyway.

And if some guy running around like a headless chicken wipes the whole party, you will find that out very early in the raid and he can soon be replaced.

Ill never be a very skilled player, simply becuase i dont have the time or even the will to. And im quiet happy to play casual. Ive done a few 10's and a couple of 25's and each and every time i do them i get that little bit better. So some eejit spamming link ach means sweet f all to me, everyone has to start somewhere when beginning raids and as far as i know the very "skilled" players started from the beginning themselves.

Maybe Blizzard should just make a Elitist server where all the really "skilled" players can go and emote /pat on back to themselves. The new changes will go ahead anyway and please alot more people than it will put out.

][cEMAN**

If you know the instances you're running, and you have a basic knowledge of your class - what are your best stats, what your mins need to be eg. Hit cap, then that's all it takes to show you've put in the time with your toon. Then it's a case of finding a guild who'll give you the time. As i've mentioned before though, if you can't find one, there's nothing stopping you starting one. Through PUGs and 5 mans, if you can't make friends in wow, maybe you aren't the right personality for a guild.

The lack of trying i'm talking about though are people who get their toons to 80 and think that automatically makes them good enough to play anything as long as they get gear. Tanks who don't get 540 MIN defense. dps who don't get hit capped. Healers who can't react fast enough to heal, shouldn't be healing. They should dps - it's a more steady and easy thing.

You see some people though who pick their talents because it sounded good, rather than even looking towards the basic help of say wowwiki. It doesn't take much to google search DK builds, or Warrior builds etc.

At the end of the day you can't expect everyone on your server to drop everything and help you - it just wouldn't work. There are too many new people every day, and too many people with alts. That's why people put up websites, and post information, so that everyone can look it up at one place.

If you've read elitist jerks, you'll realise that though theorycrafting will squeeze every last bit of dps out of your character, all you really need to know are the basics they explain in the overview - best stats, gemming, flasking, enchanting options, some builds you can try, and a basic rotation. It really is a simple instruction manual that takes a few minutes to read, and can make all the difference in your individual performance.

The next step is knowing your target. If you go into a PUG not knowing the fight, that's one thing, but if you apply to a guild not knowing the content that they're currently doing, that's another. Some people will give you a chance, but if they do it's not helping everyone else in the guild by having to slow down their current progress to teach the new guy the ropes. A few minutes on wowwiki or tankspot would show you videos and give you overviews of fights you're going into. It doesn't take a lot of time to do it, but even a few minutes shows that you're committed to not having others hold your hand.

I couldn't give a **** about achivements. I've explained how easy it is to get them. If you have friends, or you get lucky, you can get any achievement in the game now. But expecting 24 other people to be patient while you learn something for the first time without spending a few minutes yourself looking it up to make it a lot easier, shows that you really don't give a **** about them. So at the end of the day, do you expect them to be happy with you for that?

Now in the old days you had to learn encounters yourself. Because of the 40 man setup, it took a long time to get things running smooth. It was a lot of people to deal with. You practiced and you earned your spot, you earned your gear, and you earned a guild upgrade by doing so. But it took time and committment. Doing so showed those you applied to, that you'd spent time preparing yourself so that you weren't being a burden on them. It wasn't a perfect system, because at the end of the day, a lot of people didn't get to see the inside of naxx before wotlk. However, it did give a general idea of how much you had to put in to advance. Just dinging 60 didn't cut it.

TBC was a bit better. More so that blizzard gave a lot of tiers of encounters that you could learn while progressing through. You got your basic gear in kara, and it gave you your first glimpse of raiding. Because for the higher level people it was easy, it meant it wasn't painful. But you learned. Gruul, Maggy, quick next level raids to show you the next level of raiding - faster reactions, more mechanics, and a higher level of gear needed (that you got through kara runs). You couldn't just skip it (initially). You got from A to B by not skipping straight to B. SSC/TK the next stage up. Now here's one of the kickers - attunement. Yeah you had it before in Kara etc, but SSC/TK meant doing a few extra quests. Again it showed individual attention rather than getting dragged on up. You had to be attuned first.

Now you can say you're a part time player, but really getting SSC/TK attuned wasn't that difficult. It meant when you logged in, you'd go do your quests, rather than standing around Shatt or Orgrimmar /flex'ing or standing at the AH all day seeing what you could buy if you only had enough money. It might have taken you weeks or months to do it, but anyone could have gotten attuned. Same with BT/MH and Sunwell.

Blizzard stepped in half way though, and said "We have a few people a good bit behind. We're bringing out new instances, and it's not going to take new people so long to catch up with gear." So they brought out the isle, and Magister's Terrace. It wasn't BT/MH level gear, but rather around SSC/TK, or just before it level of gear. But just as Sunwell was coming out, it meant people were still having to do SSC/TK/MH/BT to get gear good enough for Sunwell. They didn't just all pile in.

So new players could gear up, but they still had to learn the raiding experience (and how to play with 24 other people), by doing lower level instances.

My point on gear, is that now when ICC comes out, within a couple of weeks of going NOWHERE near a raid, people can gear to the same level as those who've been getting the raiding experience already. I have no problem with the way blizzard used Magister's Terrace. I think it was a great idea. When ICC comes out i'd have no problem with blizzard giving everyone Ulduar level gear - full sets out of a vendor. I just don't think everyone should get totgc25 gear out of a vendor. Making people work for their upgrades means that they have to gain the experience of it.

If ICC comes out (and it'll be around for months), and as a casual player, you can't spend time getting in a totc10/25/totgc10/25 group with your full ulduar set, then what are you really offering those who are stepping into ICC to progress? Nothing. You want the quick fix, and you want it now. You demand it because you're paying for wow. How much does the world owe you buddy?

Simply put if people could look at a player and see Ulduar gear and say "Get some more gear through the experience of raiding", it would save everybody a lot of bull****. If they then looked and saw totc/totgc gear, they'd know they HAD to raid already to get it. So it would show experience of a raiding situation, and enough time spent looking to better themselves, and not just get a quick fix. In the end it would save everyone a LOT of wipes in progress raids, trying to find out if a player is just pretending to know what they're doing or not.

Remember, at the end of the day, you can play this game by yourself, but raiding takes you considering the positions of 24 other people. Don't waste their time by being selfish. That's what's ruining this game!

TechnoPool

thats alot text, gonna need some tea before i read all that :P

StinkyMunkey

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;63224599']If you know the instances you're running, and you have a basic knowledge of your class - what are your best stats, what your mins need to be eg. Hit cap, then that's all it takes to show you've put in the time with your toon. Then it's a case of finding a guild who'll give you the time. As i've mentioned before though, if you can't find one, there's nothing stopping you starting one. Through PUGs and 5 mans, if you can't make friends in wow, maybe you aren't the right personality for a guild.

The lack of trying i'm talking about though are people who get their toons to 80 and think that automatically makes them good enough to play anything as long as they get gear. Tanks who don't get 540 MIN defense. dps who don't get hit capped. Healers who can't react fast enough to heal, shouldn't be healing. They should dps - it's a more steady and easy thing.

You see some people though who pick their talents because it sounded good, rather than even looking towards the basic help of say wowwiki. It doesn't take much to google search DK builds, or Warrior builds etc.

At the end of the day you can't expect everyone on your server to drop everything and help you - it just wouldn't work. There are too many new people every day, and too many people with alts. That's why people put up websites, and post information, so that everyone can look it up at one place.

If you've read elitist jerks, you'll realise that though theorycrafting will squeeze every last bit of dps out of your character, all you really need to know are the basics they explain in the overview - best stats, gemming, flasking, enchanting options, some builds you can try, and a basic rotation. It really is a simple instruction manual that takes a few minutes to read, and can make all the difference in your individual performance.

The next step is knowing your target. If you go into a PUG not knowing the fight, that's one thing, but if you apply to a guild not knowing the content that they're currently doing, that's another. Some people will give you a chance, but if they do it's not helping everyone else in the guild by having to slow down their current progress to teach the new guy the ropes. A few minutes on wowwiki or tankspot would show you videos and give you overviews of fights you're going into. It doesn't take a lot of time to do it, but even a few minutes shows that you're committed to not having others hold your hand.

I couldn't give a **** about achivements. I've explained how easy it is to get them. If you have friends, or you get lucky, you can get any achievement in the game now. But expecting 24 other people to be patient while you learn something for the first time without spending a few minutes yourself looking it up to make it a lot easier, shows that you really don't give a **** about them. So at the end of the day, do you expect them to be happy with you for that?

Now in the old days you had to learn encounters yourself. Because of the 40 man setup, it took a long time to get things running smooth. It was a lot of people to deal with. You practiced and you earned your spot, you earned your gear, and you earned a guild upgrade by doing so. But it took time and committment. Doing so showed those you applied to, that you'd spent time preparing yourself so that you weren't being a burden on them. It wasn't a perfect system, because at the end of the day, a lot of people didn't get to see the inside of naxx before wotlk. However, it did give a general idea of how much you had to put in to advance. Just dinging 60 didn't cut it.

TBC was a bit better. More so that blizzard gave a lot of tiers of encounters that you could learn while progressing through. You got your basic gear in kara, and it gave you your first glimpse of raiding. Because for the higher level people it was easy, it meant it wasn't painful. But you learned. Gruul, Maggy, quick next level raids to show you the next level of raiding - faster reactions, more mechanics, and a higher level of gear needed (that you got through kara runs). You couldn't just skip it (initially). You got from A to B by not skipping straight to B. SSC/TK the next stage up. Now here's one of the kickers - attunement. Yeah you had it before in Kara etc, but SSC/TK meant doing a few extra quests. Again it showed individual attention rather than getting dragged on up. You had to be attuned first.

Now you can say you're a part time player, but really getting SSC/TK attuned wasn't that difficult. It meant when you logged in, you'd go do your quests, rather than standing around Shatt or Orgrimmar /flex'ing or standing at the AH all day seeing what you could buy if you only had enough money. It might have taken you weeks or months to do it, but anyone could have gotten attuned. Same with BT/MH and Sunwell.

Blizzard stepped in half way though, and said "We have a few people a good bit behind. We're bringing out new instances, and it's not going to take new people so long to catch up with gear." So they brought out the isle, and Magister's Terrace. It wasn't BT/MH level gear, but rather around SSC/TK, or just before it level of gear. But just as Sunwell was coming out, it meant people were still having to do SSC/TK/MH/BT to get gear good enough for Sunwell. They didn't just all pile in.

So new players could gear up, but they still had to learn the raiding experience (and how to play with 24 other people), by doing lower level instances.

My point on gear, is that now when ICC comes out, within a couple of weeks of going NOWHERE near a raid, people can gear to the same level as those who've been getting the raiding experience already. I have no problem with the way blizzard used Magister's Terrace. I think it was a great idea. When ICC comes out i'd have no problem with blizzard giving everyone Ulduar level gear - full sets out of a vendor. I just don't think everyone should get totgc25 gear out of a vendor. Making people work for their upgrades means that they have to gain the experience of it.

If ICC comes out (and it'll be around for months), and as a casual player, you can't spend time getting in a totc10/25/totgc10/25 group with your full ulduar set, then what are you really offering those who are stepping into ICC to progress? Nothing. You want the quick fix, and you want it now. You demand it because you're paying for wow. How much does the world owe you buddy?

Simply put if people could look at a player and see Ulduar gear and say "Get some more gear through the experience of raiding", it would save everybody a lot of bull****. If they then looked and saw totc/totgc gear, they'd know they HAD to raid already to get it. So it would show experience of a raiding situation, and enough time spent looking to better themselves, and not just get a quick fix. In the end it would save everyone a LOT of wipes in progress raids, trying to find out if a player is just pretending to know what they're doing or not.

Remember, at the end of the day, you can play this game by yourself, but raiding takes you considering the positions of 24 other people. Don't waste their time by being selfish. That's what's ruining this game!

This point of view makes sense and i understand what you are saying. I myself am in a top end raiding guild, all be it by association - a person i know invited me. And they have on occassion helped me with things like cutting jems and or helping with a particular quest where i need a body or two. But that said, most of them wouldnt give you the time of day. And tbh, im not too bothered either way, cause im usually lvling toons for profs.

People who join guilds under false pretences ie they have the gear but dont know their a$$holes from their elbows usually are found out pretty quick and are expelled from said guild.

Its in Blizzards best interest to make high end content available to the casual player. Its pretty easy to ding 80, so they have to be able to keep people interested. I do use wowwiki and thottbot on ocassion, but my overall knowledge of WoW is lacking.

I think the can be a happy medium for skilled and casual player alike. I would happliy spend more time on WoW if i had the time. I have 2 lvl 80's and would be very happy to outfit my main with higher item level gear given the chance.

WoW is like sex - you dont have to be good at it to enjoy it. And that pretty much sums me up. Im not what you would call a very good player, but i enjoy playing/raiding none the less. I do make silly mistakes and probably will continue too, but i am very capable of learning from them.

Dustaz

Nick_oliveri wrote: »

This assumes of course that the Vendor items will not be getting a markup in emblems required.

Existing items wont, but there will be a new emblem introduced.

Dustaz

good lord its a long time since i read a topic with Iceman, Angelwhore and Ropedrink posting in it. Walls of text are Wall-y


Anyway, my take on it is this

Raiding IS easier these days - not a good thing imo
Raiding is more accesible - a good thing
Gearing up is a LOT easier - a good thing
Time + Risk Vs Reward is totally unbalanced now - a very very very bad thing.


As an officer in a raiding guild that has had 2 recruiting pushes in the last year, i love the fact that we can promote alts and recruit people a lot easier and not have to go back to old tiers of content to gear them up.

However as a player in a raiding guild i DETEST the fact that my alt has pretty much the same gear that my main has (mostly 245 on an alt vs 245/258 on main). At the moment the only thing that seperates raiding gear from casual gear is Anub 25 Heroic. I just cant understand why they cant tune the entire 25 TotGC so that it is HARD and that it actually REWARDS you for the EFFORT you put in. This doesnt apply to anything in the game at the moment apart from Anub HC.

Everything else is easy. You more or less turn up and you get stuff. This is why your seeing people leaving pugs so much. Again i have no problem with more people seeing end game content, i just maintain there should be a tier of content that is HARD and not everyone should be able to pug it.

I COMPLETELY agree with the people moaning that they should have cut off the protodrakes by now. Those drakes should be a badge of honor for people that say "i worked my ass off and cleared this content and did the achievements when it was HARD". Now people just breeze in and outgear the instance easily and get them. THat isnt a challenge and thats what wow is missing.

Karl Hungus

Dustaz wrote: »

good lord its a long time since i read a topic with Iceman, Angelwhore and Ropedrink posting in it. Walls of text are Wall-y

It is a wee bit nostalgic, ain't it?

Dustaz wrote: »

I COMPLETELY agree with the people moaning that they should have cut off the protodrakes by now. Those drakes should be a badge of honor for people that say "i worked my ass off and cleared this content and did the achievements when it was HARD". Now people just breeze in and outgear the instance easily and get them. THat isnt a challenge and thats what wow is missing.

Gotta disagree with you on this man, because quite frankly, getting the drakes is still more of a challenge than most people are capable of. Sure, some of the achievements like the speed kills are made easier with gear, some of them were a silly walk through to begin with, but there are achievements like Freya and Mimiron hard modes and Yogg +1 that no amount of gear is going to help if you don't have the skill. It's still a challenge if you overgear those encounters and it still takes a hell of a lot of skill. I'm still trying to get my drake from Ulduar 10 and it is anything but a breeze. If you want one of the Ulduar drakes, you still have to work your ass off. Gear helps in some aspects, but nobody is going to get through Firefighter because of gear alone.

Now personally, I rarely see people except from very high end guilds with the even rusted drakes, never mind the iron bound ones. In fact, nobody on my server Horde-side has the iron bounds yet as far as I know, and only 1 guild is close. I think if it were as much as a breeze as people say, I'd see a lot more, but I just don't. I only see two Alliance guilds hanging around with their 25 man Ulduar drakes, and a rare few Horde ones with their 10 man drakes. If it's a breeze, it's one I don't feel.

As well as that, it stands to reason the drake achievements have stayed as they are. The ones from the Naxxramas achievements were removed because we had the new ones in 3.1, but we've had no new drake achievements in 3.2. I think that people demanding they be removed are making such demands purely for selfish reasons. In my opinion it's still an extremely significant badge of honor and still a very big challenge for people to get. Those who are begrudging people who've gotten their drakes after 3.1 just reeks of childishness to me, like the kid who's lost interest in his favorite toy just because Timmy down the street has one now too.

Had some guy in my guild complaining the other day about how easy the "Fish don't leave footprints" achievement was now compared to how hard it used to be, when someone else in guild had just got it. It was one of the most absurdly petty things I've ever seen, and really brings the elitist "things were harder in my day" nonsense to a head for me. People will always get things easier later on, it's an aspect of the game, so just learn to accept it. I remember back when I first hit 80, running Azjol Nerub Heroic over and over again every day constantly for that rare stamina trinket. Did I whinge when better ones were handed out like candy during Brewfest, or drops from the normal TotC5? Did I feck, I just got on with it and continued to progress.

][cEMAN**

RopeDrink wrote: »

but you do have to understand that not everyone is capable of sitting back and restraining themselves from feeling a bit hard done when so much effort was put into something that, later, gets lowered to the point of being easy for everyone else

If ever there was a red flag to warn you that you've invested too much time and emotion in a game, that's the one!

I don't deny that people need to have the boost so that the gap between hitting 80 and raiding isn't so vast, but I just think that pretty much full sets of the previous content gear, just to walk into the next raid, is a bit too advanced of a boost.

I still maintain that doing TOTC in full 226/232 gear and waiting a few weeks on some 245 drops, to be good enough to walk into ICC and hold your spot, isn't too much to ask of people.

If they're taking away learning the class through use (DKs), and then taking away raiding experience by giving up to date gear from non raid content (5 man heroics), people won't learn what to do in a raid. That's the main problem here. It's giving everyone the password to god mode on their new games, so they'll never learn to play it normally.

Nehaxak

It's only a very small minority that are whining about how easy gear has become to get on my own main realm (Draenor). The rest of us just get on with it and enjoy the huge amount of pugs (both good, bad and comical) that are available without bothering to commit yourself to a guild schedule.
IMHO I prefer it this way as I like to gear up my alts quicker.

I mean this in the best possible way, or at least not in a bad way but the way I see it, those that are whining are those that could well be considered having a mild form of aspergers and with that an unwillingness to accept change.
That or they're just pissed off they wasted so much time of their life on a game getting high end gear when along comes a "scrub" alt who might better that gear from a few pugs.

I prefer PvP either way so none of it bothers me at all. I only pug to get some PVE gear for, erm, pugging really or nice weapons for PvP as I detest arena.

I'm only annoyed at the changes to fishing that are coming as it was making me a fortune having levelled up fishing to the max and selling stacks of fish on the AH.

][cEMAN**

The thing is, the people (that i've seen anyway in this thread), that aren't necessarily complaining about it, but saying it's not the best idea blizzard have come up with, are those who've seen a lot of change throughout wow.

Simply put, I don't care if you dinged yesterday, and geared up earlier this morning, if you can play. The fact of the matter though is that the majority of people don't know their raid from their arse, and feel that their spot in a 25 man is earned by their subscription rather than spending 2 minutes finding out what they should be doing - given by those who've spent the time on the PTR, and on live, detailing fights so that people don't have to figure them out for themselves.

I keep using this analogy, but it's like an actor that shows up on a film set that says "I don't know the script, but I get the idea of the film, and i'll just fill in on your lines...". No. It doesn't work like that. You're just wasting my time, and the time of those you're grouped with. People like that in a raid I lead, I just kick as soon as I realise they don't know what they're doing and don't give a ****.

Don't get me wrong, i'll help anyone who ever asks for it, but pretending to be capable of that which you're not capable of, is just bull****ting your way into places you shouldn't be.

Not in my group...

Dustaz

Nehaxak wrote: »

It's only a very small minority that are whining about how easy gear has become to get on my own main realm (Draenor).

That minority is probably the minority of players who enjoy a challenge.

That or they're just pissed off they wasted so much time of their life on a game getting high end gear when along comes a "scrub" alt who might better that gear from a few pugs.

Whats wrong with being annoyed by that? So you think if you work your arse off for your wages, its fair that someone gets the same wage or more for sitting on their hole?

The reason most raiders are annoyed is that its fine for alts/scrub/casuals/others to get the gear from normals, but there is not a lot of BETTER gear that rewards the time spent and the more skill required for heroics.

Hopefully ICC will address this (although with gated progression it doesnt look likely). I couldnt give a rats ass if you coast along getting boosted with pugs and getting gear from <random tier> Normal, as long as i get rewarded for my efforts in <random tier> Heroic.

I mean this in the best possible way, or at least not in a bad way but the way I see it, those that are whining are those that could well be considered having a mild form of aspergers and with that an unwillingness to accept change.

The only thing that has changed is the rewards on offer. There is still bad players and players who arent willing to put in the work for a certain amount of reward. What HAS changed is the rewards on offer for those putting in the work.

I'm only annoyed at the changes to fishing that are coming as it was making me a fortune having levelled up fishing to the max and selling stacks of fish on the AH.

Damn those scrub fishermen eh?

Dustaz

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I
Gotta disagree with you on this man, because quite frankly, getting the drakes is still more of a challenge than most people are capable of. Sure, some of the achievements like the speed kills are made easier with gear, some of them were a silly walk through to begin with, but there are achievements like Freya and Mimiron hard modes and Yogg +1 that no amount of gear is going to help if you don't have the skill. It's still a challenge if you overgear those encounters and it still takes a hell of a lot of skill. I'm still trying to get my drake from Ulduar 10 and it is anything but a breeze. If you want one of the Ulduar drakes, you still have to work your ass off. Gear helps in some aspects, but nobody is going to get through Firefighter because of gear alone.

Sorry but thats rubbish. Getting the drakes is FAR easier now. I dont have one because i was away for a while and weve prety much stopped doing uld now but a week ago a few guys from the guild went back and 2 shot all the 10 man achs. They have drakes now. That is entirely down to gear and the only reason you dont seem more drakes is that everyone hates the idea of ulduar now that we have such easy pugging. If TotC was ulduar sized, youd be seeing a lot more drakes.

As well as that, it stands to reason the drake achievements have stayed as they are. The ones from the Naxxramas achievements were removed because we had the new ones in 3.1, but we've had no new drake achievements in 3.2.

No, the reasons the nax drakes was removed was because of the new tier of gear which (in blizzards words) "trivialised the acheivement". Its the same reason they removed the bear reward from ZulAman and its the same reason they SHOULD have removed the ulduar one.

These type of rewards are the perfect antidote to the problem weve been discussing (Content available to all, not enough for 'dedicated raiders') and blizzard are screwing it up. Sure you can go blow through ulduar in your totc geared players, but unless you did it when it was at its most difficult, you dont get the mount, sorry. Its not as if there isnt equivalent mounts available.

Karl Hungus

Dustaz wrote: »

Its not as if there isnt equivalent mounts available.

The only other 310% mount available is an incredibly rare drop from Onyxia.

Dustaz

Karl Hungus wrote: »

The only other 310% mount available is an incredibly rare drop from Onyxia.

Oh im sorry, fail.

Theres at least 1 other availble from pve and arent the gladiator mounts 310%?

Try again