Would you be a teacher? - NOT FOR ALL THE TEA IN CHINA

ei.sdraob

Elmo wrote: »

Ah so it was your choice not to become a teacher, just like it was the choice of a teacher to become a teacher.

If you think it is so cushy surely you want a new job as a Teacher, why don't you apply to become one?

yeh

why dont we all join the public sector?! :eek:

whats the name of them countries with 100% PS

oh yes

Cuba, North Korea and (ex)USSR
:cool:

ulysses32

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yeh

why dont we all join the public sector?! :eek:

whats the name of them countries with 100% PS

oh yes

Cuba, North Korea and (ex)USSR
:cool:

Well someone has to work in the PS. might as well be me! It is a free country so it can bo you too, once they lift the embargo that is.

we could privatise the entire PS and let everyone pay the full whack for education, hospitals,etc. Now that would open up some interesting entrepreneurial opportunities for the likes of myself!

Elmo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yeh

why dont we all join the public sector

You had as much choice to do a Civil service exam, go for a job in the council, train to be a Nurse, a teacher, a gard etc etc as anyone else. Not everyone will get a job but some will. Many during the Celtic tiger turned down such opportunities for other opportunities.

Everyone who is on this forum has the opportunity to apply for the H.Dip. and have all of the perks of a teacher, just as everyone right now has the opportunity to apply for their ACCA or their CPA to become an Accountant and have all the perks of being an Accountant.

Name a country on the brink of 100% PS because of the banks in the Private sector??

Emmmm Ireland.

To The North

over the last couple of years my mum went to college part time, got a degree & did her Hdip to become a teacher. she's now doing further courses to broaden the topics she can teach and make herself more employable. it took a hell of a lot of work for her & it's an important job, the future of the country is being moulded by people like her! i don't think they could be respected enough for the job they take on, i wouldn't do it for all the holidays they could offer me lol

that said i think reform is certainly needed, but as far as i rememeber they were making efforts to bring in change and make it less easy for bad teachers to stay where they are, i hope that continues and that our education system continues to improve i'll be sending my own kids through it in the future!

MsOkidoki

As somebody who left the private sector to train as a teacher I have to say that teaching is by no means a cushy number. In most companies if you were asked to present to 30 or so people you would be given access to a data projector, laptop etc. You would be very put out to be asked to do such a presentation on a whiteboard while balls of paper pelted you on the back, water dripped from the leaky roof, your hands were blue from the cold and a mouse ran across the room because no office was available do you had to work in an ancient prefab. There are no bonuses, your wage is fair for what you have to put up with. Oh and permenent jobs appear to be a thing of the past- you now have to be in one school for four years on your own hours (not covering sick leave etc) to get a contract. For a lot of us our job is unsafe so leave the wages as they are! Most teachers deserve them

MysticalRain

Elmo wrote: »

You had as much choice to do a Civil service exam, go for a job in the council, train to be a Nurse, a teacher, a gard etc etc as anyone else. Not everyone will get a job but some will. Many during the Celtic tiger turned down such opportunities for other opportunities.

Everyone who is on this forum has the opportunity to apply for the H.Dip. and have all of the perks of a teacher, just as everyone right now has the opportunity to apply for their ACCA or their CPA to become an Accountant and have all the perks of being an Accountant.

Name a country on the brink of 100% PS because of the banks in the Private sector??

Emmmm Ireland.

The civil service was still a popular career choice during the boom years. I knew plenty of people jumping ship from my industry in IT because it was perceived as more secure and better paid. I even knew one teacher who switched from teaching to IT, and eventually switch back to teaching again because she couldn't cope with the rigors of our industry. I did the exams myself and witnessed thousands of people down in the RDS doing them alongside me.

As for teachers...not everyone has the talent to be an effective teacher, and that includes about half the teachers I knew going to school. Also, just because someone is not a teacher, that does not mean they don't have the right to criticize the profession. If that was the case, none of us would be able to criticize Brian Cowan because we are not politicians. We can have the right to criticize teachers because at the end of the day, most of us are either pupils ourselves or have children going to schools. So as "customers" of the system, we have every right to criticize it. Not to mention the fact that we are the ones paying for it.

I'm personally happy with teachers being paid a good salary. The problem I had there is zero accountability which results in some shockingly low standards. To add insult to injury, you also have teachers claiming they can't cope on wages that are well beyond what most people in the private sector are earning. The smartest thing that teachers could have done during this downturn would have been to keep their mouths shut and be thankful that they are in a far better position than most people in this society. Of course too many of them could not resist whining, which is why many folks in the private sector are waking up to the fact that teachers have had it too easy for far too long.

Scofflaw

MsOkidoki wrote: »

As somebody who left the private sector to train as a teacher I have to say that teaching is by no means a cushy number. In most companies if you were asked to present to 30 or so people you would be given access to a data projector, laptop etc. You would be very put out to be asked to do such a presentation on a whiteboard while balls of paper pelted you on the back, water dripped from the leaky roof, your hands were blue from the cold and a mouse ran across the room because no office was available do you had to work in an ancient prefab. There are no bonuses, your wage is fair for what you have to put up with. Oh and permenent jobs appear to be a thing of the past- you now have to be in one school for four years on your own hours (not covering sick leave etc) to get a contract. For a lot of us our job is unsafe so leave the wages as they are! Most teachers deserve them

You've put me in mind there of doing an Internet training session for a newspaper down in Cork (who shall remain nameless) in a draughty old building with rising damp and interestingly lumpy carpets - first, I had to find the modem, then I had to fix their connection (eventually using my own), while all 6 trainees clustered round the dim screens of the 2 available ancient PCs. As for a whiteboard - it was a blackboard, with 2 ground down old stubs of chalk.

Mind you, the trainees were attentive, which was usual for the private sector, but sadly not for the public sector - we used to get a lot of civil service sections come in with their manager, who had often already made it clear that they wouldn't actually be allowed to use anything they learned, since it was departmental policy to regard the Internet as a pernicious waste of time and a security hazard roughly similar to unspent nuclear waste.

Teaching/training is a tough job wherever you do it, I'm afraid - and having done it all over the country (and abroad), I can assure you that the idea that it's something that happens in a comfy and well-managed way in the private sector is extremely far from the truth. That said, I enjoy doing it, and rarely turn down an opportunity.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Elmo

MysticalRain wrote: »

The civil service was still a popular career choice during the boom years. I knew plenty of people jumping ship from my industry in IT because it was perceived as more secure and better paid. I even knew one teacher who switched from teaching to IT, and eventually switch back to teaching again because she couldn't cope with the rigors of our industry. I did the exams myself and witnessed thousands of people down in the RDS doing them alongside me.

I know many people that turn down the opportunity to go in to the CS after get the exam during the boom, I also know of the reverse. But that choice was open to both.

As for teachers...not everyone has the talent to be an effective teacher, and that includes about half the teachers I knew going to school. Also, just because someone is not a teacher, that does not mean they don't have the right to criticize the profession. If that was the case, none of us would be able to criticize Brian Cowan because we are not politicians. We can have the right to criticize teachers because at the end of the day, most of us are either pupils ourselves or have children going to schools. So as "customers" of the system, we have every right to criticize it. Not to mention the fact that we are the ones paying for it.

Yes but we don't seem to criticize other professions as much. There are plenty of people who cannot do their jobs in the private sector including solicitors and accountants and doctors and we never mention them. I agree we should complain but lets complain about the job that they are doing not the perks. The school year runs from Sept to June, we all know that what do you want them to do?

I'm personally happy with teachers being paid a good salary. The problem I had there is zero accountability which results in some shockingly low standards. To add insult to injury, you also have teachers claiming they can't cope on wages that are well beyond what most people in the private sector are earning. The smartest thing that teachers could have done during this downturn would have been to keep their mouths shut and be thankful that they are in a far better position than most people in this society. Of course too many of them could not resist whining, which is why many folks in the private sector are waking up to the fact that teachers have had it too easy for far too long.

Teachers are professionals just like nurses who are you comparing teachers too in the private sector? Accountants, Doctors, Lectures, Architects or are you comparing them to the average wage which most private professionals earn far more?

As I said you can go of and become a teacher get your h. dip. work for 5 years in a job that isn't full time where you don't get paid for you summer months. Plenty of teachers odd job long before they get a full time teaching post in a school.

ulysses32

MysticalRain wrote: »

many folks in the private sector are waking up to the fact that teachers have had it too easy for far too long.

This whining at teachers has been going on for a long time. Unfortunately most of it springs from some bad experience of their own schooling, usually with one of their teachers, from which they choose to generalise thousands.

Of course, there is also the holidays and the perceived shorter working day.

i agree on the lack of accountability and i know a couple of teachers who should be sanctioned for poor standards. I also know a moajority of teachers who do a fine job and others who do far more than their fair share. In most cases the godd and the very good balance out the bad and the very bad. Accountability does exist but sanctions for poor performance don't.

MysticalRain

Elmo wrote: »

Yes but we don't seem to criticize other professions as much. There are plenty of people who cannot do their jobs in the private sector including solicitors and accountants and doctors and we never mention them. I agree we should complain but lets complain about the job that they are doing not the perks. The school year runs from Sept to June, we all know that what do you want them to do?

Part of it is because teachers are usually the first in the queue to complain about their pay and working conditions. I'm sure many of us can recall that woman on Pat Kenny whining about not being able to pay for her holiday home in Croatia on 60K a year or Anne O'Loughlin haranguing Batt O'Keefe at the last teachers conference because she thought 42K the year wasn't enough money for a 26-year-old to live on.

If you had read the recent news headlines about accountants and solicitors, you might have heard that plenty of them are either out of a job now or being sued by their former clients. So they are far more accountable and teachers are. I have a brother and sister who are in both professions, and the threat of losing their job is a constant worry. Not to mention pay cuts.

Then there's the fact that most of us have had direct experience with teachers. Again we're talking about perception here. I have far bigger gripes against hospital consultants for instance. But they are a lower profile profession. However, that doesn't make it any less wrong that teachers are not held to the same professional standards as their private sector counterparts. Even the hospital consultants have to adhere to certain standards. Otherwise they get be kicked out of the profession. Nothing of the sort happens with teachers.

Teachers are professionals just like nurses who are you comparing teachers too in the private sector? Accountants, Doctors, Lectures, Architects or are you comparing them to the average wage which most private professionals earn far more?

Well you could either compare them to just about everybody else in the country, or just limit it to the white-collar professions. With an average wage of 65K for a male teacher, I would say they compare quite favourably with any profession. That's not even accounting for the fact that teachers have a goldplated pension and a guaranteed job for life. But at the end of the day, the basic fact we're dealing with is that the country is now broke and there isn't enough of a tax base to pay for high teacher salaries.

MysticalRain

ulysses32 wrote: »

This whining at teachers has been going on for a long time. Unfortunately most of it springs from some bad experience of their own schooling, usually with one of their teachers, from which they choose to generalise thousands.

Of course, there is also the holidays and the perceived shorter working day.

i agree on the lack of accountability and i know a couple of teachers who should be sanctioned for poor standards. I also know a moajority of teachers who do a fine job and others who do far more than their fair share. In most cases the godd and the very good balance out the bad and the very bad. Accountability does exist but sanctions for poor performance don't.

I think it was a little bit more than "one teacher" in my case. There were entire schools full of useless teachers in my area. Sure, you had a few good ones too. But they were the exception.

Tipp Man

Isotonic wrote: »

Excellent career. partner in a firm?? Cleaned up during the celtic tiger with all the building and new businesses?? How is business now sir. Huge downturn like most private sector occupations??

Your so far wide of the mark with regards to my career its untrue

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yeh

why dont we all join the public sector?! :eek:

whats the name of them countries with 100% PS

oh yes

Cuba, North Korea and (ex)USSR
:cool:

That seems to be the only answer they have, why didn't you join the PS (take your pick of career) wha wha wha

ulysses32 wrote: »

This whining at teachers has been going on for a long time. Unfortunately most of it springs from some bad experience of their own schooling, usually with one of their teachers, from which they choose to generalise thousands.

Of course, there is also the holidays and the perceived shorter working day.

I'll tell you why people are pi##ed at teachers

nearly 5 months holidays per annum, get paid extra to do stuff that shoiuld be part of your job (exams supervision/correction, yard duty etc)

Starting salaries of about 37k (correction 42k), how many private sector people start on that kind of money

And on top of the excellent salary ye have the downright cheek to go protesting yesterday and next week, for what?? Explain to me why the best paid teachers in Europe, possibly the world feel it so important to go on strike?? And ye have an even bigger cheek to expect the people of this country to pay for yer 4.5 month holidays.

And just on the conditions of schools etc, did it ever occur to ye or yer union bosses that if we spent less on yer huge salaries we could spend more on educational infrastructure that might actually benifit the kids (after all aren't the kids yer only concern)??

ulysses32

MysticalRain wrote: »

I think it was a little bit more than "one teacher" in my case. There were entire schools full of useless teachers in my area. Sure, you had a few good ones too. But they were the exception.

Did your parents make this case to the boards of management of these schools?

What do you mean by useless?

What is a good teacher in your book?

jenzz

Okayyyyy deep breath all...

I still wouldnt be a muinteoir for all the love in the world ................

Tipp Man

ulysses32 wrote: »

Did your parents make this case to the boards of management of these schools?

Does it matter if they did or not, would the teachers have been sacked??

Fact is bar a teacher beats the sh#t out of a kid they don't get fired, and quite often they don't even get fired for that

MysticalRain

ulysses32 wrote: »

Did your parents make this case to the boards of management of these schools?

What do you mean by useless?

What is a good teacher in your book?

Yes, my parents did make complaints. Eventually the problem was solved by our parents withdrawing my brother and sister from their respective schools, and sending them off to a private school. It was too late for me at that point.

Teaching is a natural talent, so it's the kind of thing that you know when you see it. But the gist of it would be an energetic and engaging personality, clear communicator, effective at maintaining discipline etc.

jenzz

Tipp Man wrote: »

Does it matter if they did or not, would the teachers have been sacked??

Fact is bar a teacher beats the sh#t out of a kid they don't get fired, and quite often they don't even get fired for that

But is this not an issue with the system not the teachers? If the system is failing pupils surely its the systems responsiblity to ensure proper standards - the system being the dept of education ??

ulysses32

Tipp Man wrote: »

Your so far wide of the mark with regards to my career its untrue




That seems to be the only answer they have, why didn't you join the PS (take your pick of career) wha wha wha




I'll tell you why people are pi##ed at teachers

nearly 5 months holidays per annum, get paid extra to do stuff that shoiuld be part of your job (exams supervision/correction, yard duty etc)

Starting salaries of about 37k (correction 42k), how many private sector people start on that kind of money

And on top of the excellent salary ye have the downright cheek to go protesting yesterday and next week, for what?? Explain to me why the best paid teachers in Europe, possibly the world feel it so important to go on strike?? And ye have an even bigger cheek to expect the people of this country to pay for yer 4.5 month holidays.

And just on the conditions of schools etc, did it ever occur to ye or yer union bosses that if we spent less on yer huge salaries we could spend more on educational infrastructure that might actually benifit the kids (after all aren't the kids yer only concern)??

Apparently Batt O Keeffe had €841million unspent on capital improvements. Ask him why it wasn't spent?

Huge salaries is a bit wide of the mark. Reasonably good might be better!


Correction/ supervision is through a different employer, therefore paid separately.

Higher pay due to higher cost of living. this is true of all jobs in Ireland from minimum wage upwards (including accountants!)

Don't think you should join the teaching force Tipp Man. You don't seem to have the temperament nor the ability to kepp expletives out of your day to day vocabulary. You might do well in the Seanad though!

On a more positive note. Thank you very much for the paid holidays! They are great, and as was said earlier they are as a result of aggregated pay over twelve months. They might get cut and they might not, don't really care. i like my job and wouldn't mind doing another bit during the summer, for more pay obviously!

ulysses32

MysticalRain wrote: »

Yes, my parents did make complaints. Eventually the problem was solved by our parents withdrawing my brother and sister from their respective schools, and sending them off to a private school. It was too late for me at that point.

Teaching is a natural talent, so it's the kind of thing that you know when you see it. But the gist of it would be an energetic and engaging personality, clear communicator, effective at maintaining discipline etc.

Yes, some good qualities there.

Did the private school teachers have these qualities?

Did they do the same training in the same universities as the other teachers?

Did they get paid the same rates?

Were the student population easier or more difficult to teach in terms of motivation, parental support, less social problems spilling over into the classroom?

byhookorbycrook

You'll never be wealthy as a teacher. Wages are average for having a degree, public or private sector. Yes, holidays are a perk.

The variety every day is fantastic, there is no better reward than to see a child suddenly "get" something they didn't know previously.
Children can be harsh critics, they speaks as they find,which is one of the things that I love but some people find disconcerting.
Teaching has changed tremendously ,even over the last five years, you can have junior infants coming to school reading Harry Potter (seriously) and children who have never handled a book.

Your heart will break for the child who does their very best and gets no support from home at all. Your heart will break for those children who need just that little bit of individual help that you can't get to in a class of 30 + or the child that tells you that mam and dad were fighting again last night.


Your heart lifts when a small child gives you a hug and then you remember you shouldn't let a child make physical contact and have to brush them off. Your heat lifts too when you hear a child explain to their parent about the local historical site they visited with the school and want to show mammy all around it.The sound of 200 children playing a trad tune on a wide variety of instruments, the pride they have in their own art work, the girl who could get a certain score passing the ball to a younger child, a child who hold back the line of children to let a visitor pass, the way an entire class of 30 can be totally absorbed in library time.


I would not do any other job.

gurramok

ulysses32 wrote: »

Huge salaries is a bit wide of the mark. Reasonably good might be better

Hold on, 60k salary on average is NOT wide of the mark. A starting salary of 37k is insane money for a first timer.

jenzz

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

You'll never be wealthy as a teacher. Wages are average for having a degree, public or private sector. Yes, holidays are a perk.

The variety every day is fantastic, there is no better reward than to see a child suddenly "get" something they didn't know previously.
Children can be harsh critics, they speaks as they find,which is one of the things that I love but some people find disconcerting.
Teaching has changed tremendously ,even over the last five years, you can have junior infants coming to school reading Harry Potter (seriously) and children who have never handled a book.

Your heart will break for the child who does their very best and gets no support from home at all. Your heart will break for those children who need just that little bit of individual help that you can't get to in a class of 30 + or the child that tells you that mam and dad were fighting again last night.


Your heart lifts when a small child gives you a hug and then you remember you shouldn't let a child make physical contact and have to brush them off. Your heat lifts too when you hear a child explain to their parent about the local historical site they visited with the school and want to show mammy all around it.The sound of 200 children playing a trad tune on a wide variety of instruments, the pride they have in their own art work, the girl who could get a certain score passing the ball to a younger child, a child who hold back the line of children to let a visitor pass, the way an entire class of 30 can be totally absorbed in library time.


I would not do any other job.

Thats my entire point - Ye deserve more than a pay rise; & while everyone is up in arms you can have my full support. This is how i view teachers - they give so so much yet get it smacked back at them.

Tipp Man

ulysses32 wrote: »

I sold my donkeys last year so will have to find somewhere else to sit next summer! I hear there might be a few racehorses going cheap though...

gurramok wrote: »

Hold on, 60k salary on average is NOT wide of the mark. A starting salary of 37k is insane money for a first timer.

Completly out of touch with the real world is the problem

ulysses32

The vast majority who get the starting salary of €37k will have spent many years subbing, part-timing etc before ever getting the smell of a contract ( especially at second level).

My own example: qualified 1997, 97-2002 mish mash of subbing, short term contracts( no holiday pay), unemployment.

2002-2005 part-time contract on half salary and a bit of subbing. 2006 full-time contract at last! Not in my own on this. In my class of 1997 (26 English teachers) one person secured full-time work the next year. everyone else did the rounds like myself. I know because i met them at interviews in almost every small town and city in Ireland. some still don't have work. C'est la vie!

Elmo

Tipp Man wrote: »

Starting salaries of about 37k (correction 42k), how many private sector people start on that kind of money

Again what part of the private sector are you talking about, a fully qualify accountant? or a fully qualified Business Degree holder? or a fully qualified plumber?

old on, 60k salary on average is NOT wide of the mark. A starting salary of 37k is insane money for a first timer.

You don't get this as a first timer many teachers spend a number of years in and out of different school gaining experience or some get experience before the do the H. Dip. but they still aren't guaranteed a full time job. The have an hourly rate for the few hours that they get teaching.

Elmo

Tipp Man wrote: »

Completly out of touch with the real world is the problem

Again we are talking about professionals, is 60k wide of the mark for professionals?

MysticalRain

ulysses32 wrote: »

Yes, some good qualities there.

Did the private school teachers have these qualities?

Did they do the same training in the same universities as the other teachers?

Did they get paid the same rates?

Were the student population easier or more difficult to teach in terms of motivation, parental support, less social problems spilling over into the classroom?

Enough of them did have those qualities to make it worthwhile to send two of our family there. My parents wouldn't have been wasting their time and money otherwise.

I don't know what universities they went to. Presumably the same ones that any other teacher went to. Having a H.Dip doesn't automatically make someone a good teacher. I tend to have the view that good teachers are born, not made.

I'm not sure how much they were paid.

The school population would've been a bit more middle-class, so you did have less gurriers attending. That would also have been a factor. Although I have seen plenty of teachers struggle to teach even good classes.

ulysses32

Tipp Man wrote: »

Completly out of touch with the real world is the problem

Yes. Ivory towers have great views though! Last I heard the donkeys were plodding up and down banna strand with their entrepreneurial new owner! i hope they survive the winter of discontent and look forward to the back-breaking misery of Summer 2010.

gurramok

Elmo wrote: »

You don't get this as a first timer many teachers spend a number of years in and out of different school gaining experience or some get experience before the do the H. Dip. but they still aren't guaranteed a full time job. The have an hourly rate for the few hours that they get teaching.

Its called an average. Some will earn below that 60k and some above it. That starting salary is madness.

This teacher here is on 43k after 3 yrs experience at the tender age of 25. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2009/1124/1224259332656.html?via=mr

ulysses32

MysticalRain wrote: »

Enough of them did have those qualities to make it worthwhile to send two of our family there. My parents wouldn't have been wasting their time and money otherwise.

I don't know what universities they went to. Presumably the same ones that any other teacher went to. Having a H.Dip doesn't automatically make someone a good teacher. I tend to have the view that good teachers are born, not made.

I'm not sure how much they were paid.

The school population would've been a bit more middle-class, so you did have less gurriers attending. That would also have been a factor. Although I have seen plenty of teachers struggle to teach even good classes.

have all the gurriers been removed from the middle-classes? How nice!

I guess they will have to suffer on with the "bad" teachers.

For the record, I have seen very good teachers, teach what might be termed very bad classes. Yes I have seen bad teachers too, as have I seen bad accountants, solicitors, doctors, vets, engineers... need I go on?

My point is that you cannot generalise one case to the entire population of professionals. well, you can, but it just doesn't make statistical sense now, does it?