Would you be a teacher? - NOT FOR ALL THE TEA IN CHINA

ulysses32

gurramok wrote: »

Its called an average. Some will earn below that 60k and some above it. That starting salary is madness.

This teacher here is on 43k after 3 yrs experience at the tender age of 25. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2009/1124/1224259332656.html?via=mr

And the person who sat next to her in teacher training might be on social welfare! More luck to her. I wish i got that lucky. You do realise that you are generalising as much as anyone else here don't you?

Elmo

gurramok wrote: »

Its called an average. Some will earn below that 60k and some above it. That starting salary is madness.

This teacher here is on 43k after 3 yrs experience at the tender age of 25. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2009/1124/1224259332656.html?via=mr

No the average starting of is 37grand as pointed out and some earn far below that, I worked in a school on part-time teachers pay rates and they only got paid for the hours they taught not the hours they actually worked. She is a National School Teacher, I am talking about Secondary School teachers in general.

I knew a AP in the CS who was only 24, how much does an AP get?

MysticalRain

ulysses32 wrote: »

have all the gurriers been removed from the middle-classes? How nice!

I guess they will have to suffer on with the "bad" teachers.

For the record, I have seen very good teachers, teach what might be termed very bad classes. Yes I have seen bad teachers too, as have I seen bad accountants, solicitors, doctors, vets, engineers... need I go on?

My point is that you cannot generalise one case to the entire population of professionals. well, you can, but it just doesn't make statistical sense now, does it?

The difference is a bad accountant gets fired. A bad teacher doesn't. I would be more than happy to see good teachers paid 60-70K a year, and bad ones told to shape up or get fired.

You can generalize about how a profession is run by the standards it enforces on its members (or doesn't in the case of teaching). As another poster pointed out, nothing short of taking a chainsaw to a class of 30 kids will get a teacher fired. So it's inevitable that a large proportion of teachers there of a poor standard.

ulysses32

MysticalRain wrote: »

The difference is a bad accountant gets fired. A bad teacher doesn't. I would be more than happy to see good teachers paid 60-70K a year, and bad ones told to shape up or get fired.

You can generalize about how a profession is run by the standards it enforces on its members (or doesn't in the case of teaching). As another poster pointed out, nothing short of taking a chainsaw to a class of 30 kids will get a teacher fired. So it's inevitable that a large proportion of teachers there of a poor standard.

Why inevitable?

I do agree with you on the firing bit. I think it would be an improvement. I definitely disagree on the large proportions though. There are some teachers who are not up to muster.

There are also schools who are dealing with all of the social problems of our world disproportionately who cannot be measured by the same stick as others.

It is difficult to find a fair measurement of performance in very different environments. Is it not?

gurramok

ulysses32 wrote: »

And the person who sat next to her in teacher training might be on social welfare! More luck to her. I wish i got that lucky. You do realise that you are generalising as much as anyone else here don't you?

Any why is that person on welfare?

Nothing to do with the huge wage bill for teachers in that no more can be hired of course.

Elmo wrote: »

No the average starting of is 37grand as pointed out and some earn far below that, I worked in a school on part-time teachers pay rates and they only got paid for the hours they taught not the hours they actually worked. She is a National School Teacher, I am talking about Secondary School teachers in general.

I knew a AP in the CS who was only 24, how much does an AP get?

Do you not see how 37k is overpaid for a starter?

I think part-timers/temps/contracts should not be in support of permanent colleagues who pull in on average 60k in wages. As after all the former are the ones who lose out, not the latter.

MysticalRain

ulysses32 wrote: »

Why inevitable?

I do agree with you on the firing bit. I think it would be an improvement. I definitely disagree on the large proportions though. There are some teachers who are not up to muster.

There are also schools who are dealing with all of the social problems of our world disproportionately who cannot be measured by the same stick as others.

It is difficult to find a fair measurement of performance in very different environments. Is it not?

Why is it inevitable? It's basic human nature that if people aren't pushed to perform, they're only going to do a mediocre job. That doesn't apply to everyone. But a lot of people are like that. Then you have the lack-of-natural-talent problem to deal with as well. Let's face it, most people are not cut out to be teachers. So there should be some kind of aptitude exam to begin with, or perhaps restructuring college courses to narrow down the amount of applicants (that's done a lot in IT courses).

I agree it's difficult to measure the quality of the teacher. But a more rigorous inspection regime might be a good start. Back in my day, inspections were just a joke. I'm sure some allowances could be made for teachers working in disadvantaged schools. Inspectors could ask parents or pupils to fill out questionnaires detailing the teachers performance (like what happens in some private grind schools). Or once a year, teachers could be videotaped in a mock classroom setting and their performance critiqued by inspectors. That might sound harsh, but a lot of people have to put up with similar performance reviews in the private sector.

rebel10

gurramok wrote: »

I think part-timers/temps/contracts should not be in support of permanent colleagues who pull in on average 60k in wages. As after all the former are the ones who lose out, not the latter.

Yes, but do you not realise that these part time/temps/contracts will also be taking a pay cut? Are we supposed to agree to these cuts? The generalisation on this thread is ridiculous. So if we do not have permanency, is it fair that we take a huge cut? We know there are going to be changes relating to contracts of indefinate duration, which will mean teachers like myself, who doesn't have one, will be contacted on a yearly basis presumabley. This will obviously rid the profession of those teachers who aren't up to the standards expected.

ntlbell

ulysses32 wrote: »

That's the luck of the draw, sounds like my carpenter who resorted to google to figure out how to fit out my B & Q kitchen!

Again, must revert to type and give inane instruction as detailed above. Don't think the oul cigire would be happy with your teacher!

In the immortal words of Roy Keane "Fail to prepare, prepare to fail!"

i must be one of the unluckies men alive.

8 primary school teachers

10-12 secondary school teachers.

a number of subs.

and every single one of them used to do thier own working during a class while we worked.

it doesn't add up.

that's twenty odd teachers

ulysses32

Inspections are more rigourous now I think. One is likely to be visited quite often. Parent and pupil questionnaires are currently being piloted but they are very subjective documents and wouldn't really count as objective evidence, good or bad.

Mock classroom would be exactly that - Mock and therefore irrelevant as it is not situated.

Inspection visits can be quite terrifying even if one is doing a good job, in fact maybe more terrifying because one may have invested a lot into their work!

Not sure on what the powers of censure are. Not a whole lot i would imagine, at least not on the basis of one visit anyway.

the harsh reality is that the inspectorate has also been ravaged by retirements and the recruitment embargo. By the way if you want to see real bloated PS salaries check out the inspectorate!

ulysses32

ntlbell wrote: »

i must be one of the unluckies men alive.

8 primary school teachers

10-12 secondary school teachers.

a number of subs.

and every single one of them used to do thier own working during a class while we worked.

it doesn't add up.

that's twenty odd teachers

Yes I agree that is seriously bad luck for you and all your classmates. Are you sure your memory isn't being slighly selective though?

Never met anyone who didn't have at least one teacher/class they found edifying to some degree.

My sympathies are with you ntlbell. Crying shame. How did you muck through all the hardship?

If the teachers did so little then what was the "work" they were doing? Somebody must have been getting taught somewhere....

ntlbell

ulysses32 wrote: »

Yes I agree that is seriously bad luck for you and all your classmates. Are you sure your memory isn't being slighly selective though?

Never met anyone who didn't have at least one teacher/class they found edifying to some degree.

My sympathies are with you ntlbell. Crying shame. How did you muck through all the hardship?

If the teachers did so little then what was the "work" they were doing? Somebody must have been getting taught somewhere....

I'm not really complaining, a lot of the time they at least tried to be attentive , but when they needed to do things. like mark exams, prepare a lesson, they made time to do so.

it just sounds like common sense to me?

i think your missing the point, or avoiding it.

How did I muck through? well luckily enough I worked out at a pretty early stage that what was going on in the class room was not something I was going to make much use of in the future and put my efforts into learning useful skills and pursued a line of study that *I* was actually interested in my own time.

thanks for your concern tho

what's the saying, those who can do, those who can't teach?

ulysses32

ntlbell wrote: »

what's the saying, those who can do, those who can't teach?

Yes! Correct answer. Well done. Big gold star for you tonight:)

GB Shaw on some academic who didn't like his play.

Here's another one for ya- "And those who can do neither spout clichés"

Now as much as like Shaw, i also have great time for Aristotle and Einstein-
Aristotle and Einstein had something a little different to say:
Those who educate children well are more to be honored than parents, for these only gave life, those the art of living well.
Aristotle

It is the supreme art of the teacher to awaken joy in creative expression and knowledge.
Albert Einstein

ntlbell

ulysses32 wrote: »

Yes! Correct answer. Well done. Big gold star for you tonight:)

GB Shaw on some academic who didn't like his play.

Here's another one for ya- "And those who can do neither spout clichés"

Now as much as like Shaw, i also have great time for Aristotle and Einstein-
Aristotle and Einstein had something a little different to say:
Those who educate children well are more to be honored than parents, for these only gave life, those the art of living well.
Aristotle

It is the supreme art of the teacher to awaken joy in creative expression and knowledge.
Albert Einstein

i never claimed to be able to do anything

but at last we know where both of us are.

it took awhile

nesf

ulysses32 wrote: »

Yes! Correct answer. Well done. Big gold star for you tonight:)

GB Shaw on some academic who didn't like his play.

Here's another one for ya- "And those who can do neither spout clichés"

Now as much as like Shaw, i also have great time for Aristotle and Einstein-
Aristotle and Einstein had something a little different to say:
Those who educate children well are more to be honored than parents, for these only gave life, those the art of living well.
Aristotle

It is the supreme art of the teacher to awaken joy in creative expression and knowledge.
Albert Einstein

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

Sums up just about every profession and walk of life I can think of. The latter applying very much to the most intelligent teachers I've met.

ulysses32

ntlbell wrote: »

i never claimed to be able to do anything

but at last we know where both of us are.

it took awhile

I always knew where I was, and will be, thanks to good ol' PWT status:)

Nothing like a joust though, you learned well.

ntlbell

ulysses32 wrote: »

I always knew where I was, and will be, thanks to good ol' PWT status:)

Glad to see a country where it's population has such drive, ambition and high aspirations

ulysses32

ntlbell wrote: »

Glad to see a country where it's population has such drive, ambition and high aspirations

All of the above, thank you, I'm flattered:o

Dannyboy83

LOL@this thread.
Some of the stuff described here, I never saw in years of dealing with scumbags and pikeys in nightclubs (not to mention years of school).
Since when did teaching become such a dangerous profession?:D

Yea sure, I can give you one or two fairly shocking stories, but does it happen on a regular basis? No.
Its shocking precisely because its extraordinary.

If we all relied on this type of logic, no planes or skyscrapers would have been built post 9/11.

murphaph

jenzz wrote: »

& since when is it ok for anyone to lash out at another? Why should any front line work accept physical abuse let alone verbal.

Why should a teacher be abused by a parent just because Johnie was given out to in school today?

& not just because Johnie was given out to... because teacher gave him homework, because its PE day, because its raining.... Seen it all

Overheard again:

School finished 15 minutes early today due to essential emergency drainage work. Note & text sent to all parents, 1 of the many late collectors -" you would think you might bother your ar.. to send a letter out or a bloo.. phonecall"

Muinteoirs - is this normal everyday behaviour or are my kiddies in beruit?

& now add in Teaching principals.... Sweet lord - teach & manage...????

You sure you're not a teacher? You seem to overhear a hell of a lot of school related stuff for a non-teacher. I'd have thought someone recently made redundant would have bigger worries than to come on here to defend teachers on 60k a year tbh. Bit strange that.

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If we all relied on this type of logic, no planes or skyscrapers would have been built post 9/11.

Take a look at flights taken in the States for 11/9/01 - 12/09/02.

Lockstep

No.

It's a vocation as much as a job, and I'm not the kind of person who could put up with so many screaming little sh!ts and their parents.

My old man used to be a teacher in Dublin city. Pretty ****e work to be honest, area had a heroin problem and high unemployment which didn't help matters. Did a leaving cert subject in the school and it put me right off teaching.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

Take a look at flights taken in the States for 11/9/01 - 12/09/02.

And based on my advanced powers of assumption;), the lack of evidence of an ongoing exodus from the teaching profession (comparable to the above suggestion by yourself NESF) would suggest that either:

(i) Teachers are not having their jaws broken on a daily basis by students
or
(ii) Teachers are having their jaws broken on a daily basis by students, but are not particularly bothered by it anyway
or
(iii) Teachers, who are having their jaws broken on a daily basis, are compelled to retain their position for some form of compensation; be it financial renumeration, job security, or merely the overwhelming sense of self satisfaction provided by awakening the joy in knowledge and creative expression of jaw-breaking students.:D

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

And based on my advanced powers of assumption;), the lack of evidence of an ongoing exodus from the teaching profession (comparable to the above suggestion by yourself NESF) would suggest that either:

(i) Teachers are not having their jaws broken on a daily basis by students
or
(ii) Teachers are having their jaws broken on a daily basis by students, but are not particularly bothered by it anyway
or
(iii) Teachers, who are having their jaws broken on a daily basis, are compelled to retain their position for some form of compensation; be it financial renumeration, job security, or merely the overwhelming sense of self satisfaction provided by awakening the joy in knowledge and creative expression of jaw-breaking students.:D

That's a false inference to make I'm afraid. A kid breaking a teacher's jaw will shock but it won't invoke the kind of visceral fear watching two planes being flown into buildings will invoke. It also would be as played up in the media etc.

Bascially, people such at estimating risk and odds in general. Makes for all kinds of illogical mass behaviour. It's a real stretch to go from this to what you're talking about though.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

That's a false inference to make I'm afraid. A kid breaking a teacher's jaw will shock but it won't invoke the kind of visceral fear watching two planes being flown into buildings will invoke. It also would be as played up in the media etc.

Bascially, people such at estimating risk and odds in general. Makes for all kinds of illogical mass behaviour. It's a real stretch to go from this to what you're talking about though.

Based on one event, I agree. This is the point I'm making.
Based on multiple and successive events, I disagree.

I would argue the terror of students running rampage and breaking teachers jaws on a daily basis across the country, and teachers fleeing in fear of their lives (Lord of the Flies scenario on a grand scale), would be sufficiently terrorizing to encourage emigration, not to mention an exodus from the teaching profession.
At the very least, we should see some blips, such as inability to recruit. There appear to be no shortage of temporary teachers or SNAs however. In fact the reverse would appear to be true.

Since I've not seen any of this, I'll assume (wrongly or rightly) that teachers are not being slaughtered in our schools on a daily basis, and thus conclude its safe to put my assless leather chaps back in the closet for the day when Sinn Fein take over.

(I do accept your point about the magnitude of the terror however, it is of course, not a fair comparison to draw)

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Based on one event, I agree. This is the point I'm making.
Based on multiple and successive events, I disagree.

I would argue the terror of students running rampage and breaking teachers jaws on a daily basis across the country, and teachers fleeing in fear of their lives (Lord of the Flies scenario on a grand scale), would be sufficiently terrorizing to encourage emigration, not to mention an exodus from the teaching profession.
At the very least, we should see some blips, such as inability to recruit. There appear to be no shortage of temporary teachers or SNAs however. In fact the reverse would appear to be true.

Since I've not seen any of this, I'll assume (wrongly or rightly) that teachers are not being slaughtered in our schools on a daily basis, and thus conclude its safe to put my assless leather chaps back in the closet for the day when Sinn Fein take over.

(I do accept your point about the magnitude of the terror however, it is of course, not a fair comparison to draw)

Actually, no. Multiple sucessive events have far less impact than a single big unusual event. Think of dying in a car crash. The odds are like 1 in 100 or or something of it happening to the average person yet no one really notices or internalises the risk. Much greater fear is given towards unusual ways of dying with far far smaller chances of happening. Etc.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

Actually, no. Multiple sucessive events have far less impact than a single big unusual event. Think of dying in a car crash. The odds are like 1 in 100 or or something of it happening to the average person yet no one really notices or internalises the risk. Much greater fear is given towards unusual ways of dying with far far smaller chances of happening. Etc.

Yes, this is a good point actually.

I saw one of our judges recently suggested reintroducing the death penalty for murder, as people were no longer shocked/apalled, precisely because it is multiple and successive now, as opposed to an exceptional and dramatic event as it used to be.

Even so, I'm still not going to open a tea importing business in China I'm afriad.:D

jenzz

murphaph wrote: »

You sure you're not a teacher? You seem to overhear a hell of a lot of school related stuff for a non-teacher. I'd have thought someone recently made redundant would have bigger worries than to come on here to defend teachers on 60k a year tbh. Bit strange that.

No im not a Teacher - im an unemployed parent who brings their children to & from school everyday ! As I am one of the few parents at my school who believe in an education & that these teachers do an excellent job I generally stand on my own while I wait hence why I am able to listen to the rubbish they all spout on about.
Im just sick & tired of teacher bashing. Yes I have many worries - my main worry at present is a 7 yr old who is being lost in the " system" due to his needs not being addressed. BUT his principal & teachers are fantastic & the support & extra support I get out of hours from them is mindboggling ! They give a damn about him - the system doesnt ! My whole point is I would not do their job. & since when do teachers earn 60K?

Tipp Man

jenzz wrote: »

No im not a Teacher - im an unemployed parent who brings their children to & from school everyday ! As I am one of the few parents at my school who believe in an education & that these teachers do an excellent job I generally stand on my own while I wait hence why I am able to listen to the rubbish they all spout on about.
Im just sick & tired of teacher bashing. Yes I have many worries - my main worry at present is a 7 yr old who is being lost in the " system" due to his needs not being addressed. BUT his principal & teachers are fantastic & the support & extra support I get out of hours from them is mindboggling ! They give a damn about him - the system doesnt ! My whole point is I would not do their job. & since when do teachers earn 60K?

Any teacher on point 14 in the salary scale will be on 60k, in lay mans terms those with 11 years experience, so any 35 year old teacher basically.

2 married 35 year old teachers will probably have 120k as a gross income, does that not seem large to you?? In fact its kind of ironic that the unions want to tax the rich, i.e those earning over 100k but they forget that now because our PS is soooo overpaid that a lot of married PS couples will be "RICH", basically any 35 year old couple who are teachers, nurses, Gardai are rich as defined by the unions

Lemondrop kid

BrianD3 wrote: »

Add to that
-Physical abuse from pupils. Teacher in my secondary school had his jaw broken with a punch, pupil was expelled. His parents screamed blue murder over the "injustice" of it all.
-In my primary school, teachers had to patrol the toilets to stop dirty protests
-Allegations of sexual assault against teacher, pupil later admitted that they were fabricated
-Pupils tried to burn down the school
-Pissing and sh1tting on the floor. Getting up on the teacher's desk, squatting down and having a sh1te on it before she came in.

Lots of other stuff too. And this was not in an inner city school either.

Yeah, school (convent good rating) i worked in a girl attempted to burn down the school, was expelled - parents got solicitors on to it, principal folded, kid re-instated. Imagine how the other studetns felt, never mind the rest.

Also worked in different school / similar pupils/ catchment, - a dream principal - dream school.

But it's always the same. Those who haven't actually done it, often protest the loudest. Try it folks - be it a bunch of sweaty teens or pre-teens - it's no joke. In adult ed. now, phew, thank god.

jenzz

My point is simply I wouldnt do their job. & like Elmo said earlier many teachers do not have permenant contracts. I personally am sick of people bashing the teachers - they are not " THE " public sector. What many people appear to misunderstand is its the system they peed at. The system makes the decision not the teacher. The teachers werent the only ones on strike on Tue. Yes I do feel very sorry for a parent who needed to take a day off work to mind there child & lost a days leave but thats not the individual teachers fault - what about all the other public sector workers who were on strike? people are also missing the gripe at the moment - The fat cats sitting up there in Leinster house - They are the problem, They caused this mess, Not me , not you, not the teachers.

I do know a teaching principal. She took up the post in Oct 2008. She earns less now in Nov 2009 as a teaching principal ( teaches 4th, 5th & 6th & manages the school) than she did as a teacher due to the cuts. So why would you do it ? She obviously loves what she does . But its the extra stuff. The family whos house burnt down over christmas, The parent who died , the mother whos ill- Its the extra devoution & support they give to their kiddies out of hours. They are the ones who care & help. Can assure you you wouldnt see Mr Batt out shoveling snow off the school gate ways or painting the classroom walls himself.