program on depression in sport tonight

vincenzo1

Just came across an article on bbc that gabby yorath is showing a program on depression in sport tonight, starting 22.45 or 23.15 according to aertel on bbc 1, if anyone is interested.

The Black Oil

Damn, I meant to record this. Is it going to be repeated?

Maybe we could have a reminder thread dedicated to when interesting/psych related things are on the TV/Radio, etc. Not pseudoscience, but decent stuff?

New.White.Socks

I meant to watch this one, but forgot that evening.

Did you get to watch it? I imagine it would be an interesting one.

bob_loblaw

it was actually on yesterday on bbc1 just before the rugby. only just happened to stumble across it myself. Really interesting. Makes you realise how much those in the limelight (for the right reasons) have to contend with. Personally don't know anything about cricket and had no idea who he was but Marcus Trescothick went through his two forced returns home from India in detail. Very sad and very courageous, but what I thought was most relevant was the fact that no one on it, none of these men who experienced it/still experience it were particularly articulate. They spoke about the on the surface feelings but it was still an overwhelming experience for them, there only seemed to be minimal understanding present.

In saying that i think it was a programme that needed to be made, and they were all incredibly brave in speaking out about it particularly in light of media reports of them at their lowest points. Hopefully it does the job of increasing awareness and letting people know that it is an illness that you can't just 'snap out of'. And what John Kirwan is doing in his native New Zealand for the promotion of awareness of mental health issues is fantastic to see.

Also pretty shocking when you look back on footage of the reaction to Stan Collymore's problems...

bluefinger

I thought Neil Lennon was great. Had a real grasp on the subject, obviously from personal experience and was not afraid to make himself available through the show to others experiencing depression.

bob_loblaw wrote: »

but what I thought was most relevant was the fact that no one on it, none of these men who experienced it/still experience it were particularly articulate. They spoke about the on the surface feelings but it was still an overwhelming experience for them, there only seemed to be minimal understanding present.

+ 1 though i thought there was a deliberate attempt to highlight that it can happen to anyone rather than what it is, how it affects you what the signs are...

bob_loblaw wrote: »

Also pretty shocking when you look back on footage of the reaction to Stan Collymore's problems...

yeah, also the reaction of the Sun to Bruno being sectioned was diabolical, thank goodness things have changed.

Odysseus

Its a pity I missed it, I would have like to have seen it. I suppose there is a difficulty here that I see around Bod's statement of the attitude of "just snap out of it". Just to state I don't think people with depression should be told such a thing.

I’m an amateur athlete myself, I go for the type of extreme endurance running stuff myself. Now don’t get me wrong of course I all for some type of psychological intervention just to be clear on that. However, in order to be perform at your sport to a good level you also need what I call an inner Sergeant Major screaming abuse at you. The psychoanalytic sadistic superego; if you will allow such a term:) In a lot of the desert stuff I do you get a lot of military people also competing; one thing you will notice with these guys is they will rarely acknowledge weakness.

In order to finish such events a certain amount of denial is required, like running 100k or spending five days running across the Sahara is going to hurt, believe me it hurts a lot. However, you need to block that out if you want to finish. It can be the same with the psychological side. These things are psychologically draining, however, during the race and the build up you may have to block that out too. Its interesting I done the Marathon des Sable this year and the website site notes that a significant amount of people suffer depressive symptoms in the following months after it.

I would have my own theory on these are it affecting their desire, as the people its such a demanding race that people often spend up to two years training for it. That has been their desire for that two years, the suddenly there is a lack.

However, I’m only speaking from my amateur experience, however, I think there would be a lot of similarities around professional training. However, as I said above there is a need to block out or deny certain physical or psychological difficulties there in order to perform, there is also a time and a place to address this, and unless it is addressed it would also effect one’s ability to perform.

bob_loblaw

Odysseus wrote: »

Its a pity I missed it, I would have like to have seen it. I suppose there is a difficulty here that I see around Bod's statement of the attitude of "just snap out of it". Just to state I don't think people with depression should be told such a thing.

I’m an amateur athlete myself, I go for the type of extreme endurance running stuff myself. Now don’t get me wrong of course I all for some type of psychological intervention just to be clear on that. However, in order to be perform at your sport to a good level you also need what I call an inner Sergeant Major screaming abuse at you. The psychoanalytic sadistic superego; if you will allow such a term:) In a lot of the desert stuff I do you get a lot of military people also competing; one thing you will notice with these guys is they will rarely acknowledge weakness.

In order to finish such events a certain amount of denial is required, like running 100k or spending five days running across the Sahara is going to hurt, believe me it hurts a lot. However, you need to block that out if you want to finish. It can be the same with the psychological side. These things are psychologically draining, however, during the race and the build up you may have to block that out too. Its interesting I done the Marathon des Sable this year and the website site notes that a significant amount of people suffer depressive symptoms in the following months after it.

I would have my own theory on these are it affecting their desire, as the people its such a demanding race that people often spend up to two years training for it. That has been their desire for that two years, the suddenly there is a lack.

However, I’m only speaking from my amateur experience, however, I think there would be a lot of similarities around professional training. However, as I said above there is a need to block out or deny certain physical or psychological difficulties there in order to perform, there is also a time and a place to address this, and unless it is addressed it would also effect one’s ability to perform.

Personally I have no knowledge of sports training at that kind of level so I had never really thought about this. Really interesting though. My thoughts I guess had been based on my own personal knowledge of depression in an everyday common situation sense. Obviously the intensity involved in pushing yourself, body and mind, to compete as an athlete crosses over into a different realm when it comes to mental states - I'm guessing it brings you closer to the edge so to speak. In that respect I suppose it makes sense that a deeper level of understanding may have been absent from these men as at their stage of life, coping with their depression was obviously the priority. I'm thinking also of that german footballer who retired early in his career rather than endure the torment.
Great insight odyssues, thanks.

bluefinger wrote: »

+ 1 though i thought there was a deliberate attempt to highlight that it can happen to anyone rather than what it is, how it affects you what the signs are....

As above my use of relevant was probably the wrong word... Awareness and removal of stigma was prob the key to the programme. It does spark the thought that athletes themselves should be exposed to professional help at early stages of their career? or maybe they already are? Are sports pyschologists readily available? again my knowldge of the sporting world is limited...

Odysseus

Are sports pyschologists readily available? again my knowldge of the sporting world is limited...[/QUOTE]

I'm guessing here but I would imagine at high levels they are, like there is generally full medical back up inculding allied professions at that level. However, I know little of the actual work of a sports psychologists, maybe some here can elaborate on it, but once again guessing I would imagine they would be referring on. I don't think that sports psychologists would deal the the pathological, but may I'm wrong.

bluefinger

bob_loblaw wrote: »

As above my use of relevant was probably the wrong word... Awareness and removal of stigma was prob the key to the programme. It does spark the thought that athletes themselves should be exposed to professional help at early stages of their career? or maybe they already are? Are sports pyschologists readily available? again my knowldge of the sporting world is limited...

From the little i know about sports psychology there seems to be an emphasis on increasing performance and the mental well-being etc is not as important. Although an increased self awareness may have the bye-product of increasing coping skills etc. The book the inner game of tennis springs to mind as an example of this. There would possibly be a huge store of data that could be collected there on the interplay between performance and experience of depression etc. My heart went out to Paul McShane after the France game and i would be curious to see what kind of research has been done on something like that. The previous posters example of long distance running is a possibly a case of reactive depression?

Odysseus

bluefinger wrote: »

From the little i know about sports psychology there seems to be an emphasis on increasing performance and the mental well-being etc is not as important. Although an increased self awareness may have the bye-product of increasing coping skills etc. The book the inner game of tennis springs to mind as an example of this. There would possibly be a huge store of data that could be collected there on the interplay between performance and experience of depression etc. My heart went out to Paul McShane after the France game and i would be curious to see what kind of research has been done on something like that. The previous posters example of long distance running is a possibly a case of reactive depression?

Yes you could associate it with a loss, or a reaction as you stated but that term is no longer fully recognised, it was dropped in the DSM III if I'm correct. That doesn't mean that some people don't use that term, for example psychoanalysis uses a nosology that does not correspond to the ICD-10 or DSM.

Any of the psychologists here care to clarify the place of reactive depression in current psychology diagnostics?


My understanding of the role of a sport psychologist would be similar to the one you stated. Though I'm open to correction on this.

Kooli

My understanding of sports psychology is also that it is about improving performance, reaching potential etc. But again, I don't actually know any sports psychologists.
I think the idea that top-performing athletes are taught to deny or push past weakness is a pretty interesting one, and intuitively makes sense in explaining at least in part why mental health issues might arise.

As for reactive depression, I know it's a term still used even though it's not an official diagnostic term anymore - I'm not sure officially why it was removed, but I think part of it was that it wasn't particularly useful to differentiate between endogenous and reactive depression in terms of treatment, and very rarely would someone have a depression that was only reactive, or only endogenous.

In my work so far, I often find myself conceptualising mental ill-health as resulting from an inability of a person to accept all parts of themselves, or a feeling that they are only worthy or OK if X, Y or Z. It's pretty simplistic, but it makes a lot of sense. It's a very Rogerian way of seeing things, but if we look at things that way, then an occupation that puts so much pressure on very measurable achievement, and does not allow any acceptance or exploration of percieved weakness or limitation, is likely to cause problems for anyone who is already vulnerable.

I would imagine this is even worse in sports that demand extreme levels of training from a very early age in order to be successful - where children are 'hot-housed' by ambitious parents (tennis being the typical example). That sets up a very definite "I am only worthy IF..." belief system in a child, and subsequently an adult.

JuliusCaesar

Odysseus wrote: »

Any of the psychologists here care to clarify the place of reactive depression in current psychology diagnostics?

Hi Odysseus, I suppose the thing is that none of us diagnose (as we are not psychiatrists/doctors) so we tend to use the 'diagnosis' as a shorthand term when communicating with the rest of the mental health team. We use individual formulations, like yourself I suppose. In any case, all depression would be seen as reactive. "endogenous depression" just means the psychiatrist hasnt' asked enough questions!

Kooli

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

In any case, all depression would be seen as reactive. "endogenous depression" just means the psychiatrist hasnt' asked enough questions!

Oh my god I couldn't agree with this statement more!

Odysseus

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Hi Odysseus, I suppose the thing is that none of us diagnose (as we are not psychiatrists/doctors) so we tend to use the 'diagnosis' as a shorthand term when communicating with the rest of the mental health team. We use individual formulations, like yourself I suppose. In any case, all depression would be seen as reactive. "endogenous depression" just means the psychiatrist hasnt' asked enough questions!

Cheers thanks for that; I was just wondering around the term "reactive" and the viewpoint of depression around serotoinin, if you get my drift. Namely if the viewpoint is that its a chemical/organic issue, where would your situate the reactive element.

From my own work we would make a diagnosis, however, that is a diagnosis that is situated within the treatment. It has no value outside of my consulting room; it’s about the position I take within my treatment of the patient. It would never be used in any other way.

But taking the psychoanalytic element out of the picture, my clients on paper can be divided into three groups,

1. Those who are in treatment in the clinics I work,

2. Those who are not in treatment in one of the clinics, this could be someone using any type of drug, from cannabis to ecstasy, some they are not receiving methadone, are they could be abstinent for any amount of time.

3. Those who attend because of the effects of another’s addiction.

My organisational criteria are set as dealing with those who are current using, have a past history of addiction, or the concerned person. Also there is a clear policy that I'm not there to diagnose. However, the paradox is that I have to establish in the first two cases that a person's deal use is problem, so therefore I am making a diagnosis of sorts immediately.

However, it’s just that mine is strictly in relation to my direct work with the client, it has no medical, psychiatric, forensic or any other value. Like the furthest I make go with that is stating that I'm seeing someone in relation to their addiction and occasionally I may go as far as mentioning "emotional issues". Court reports I hate doing them.

Hope that makes some sense.

Nice definition of endogenous depression by the way:)


Edit:

I probably waffled on without getting to my main question; a lot of the CBT people I know would use various psychometric questionnaires with say issues like addiction of depression. If you use these tools yourself and taking into consideration what I was saying about the value of my diagnosis above; would you not consider that as a diagnosis? As you said we not doctors or psychiatrists but its around I suppose what people would call developing treatment plans and the like.

Odysseus

Kooli wrote: »

I'm not sure officially why it was removed, but I think part of it was that it wasn't particularly useful to differentiate between endogenous and reactive depression in terms of treatment, and very rarely would someone have a depression that was only reactive, or only endogenous.

My understanding is that part of the reason was around the attempt the to make and keep the Manuals a theoretical. In that reactive was historically linked to certain theories, of course as with all of this stuff; its only one viewpoint. I haven't read them in awhile and my references are in Dublin, so I can't check them up.

Kooli

Odysseus wrote: »

My understanding is that part of the reason was around the attempt the to make and keep the Manuals a theoretical. In that reactive was historically linked to certain theories, of course as with all of this stuff; its only one viewpoint. I haven't read them in awhile and my references are in Dublin, so I can't check them up.

Yes quite possibly, but you could also see 'Adjustment Disorder with Depression' as another word for Reactive Depression.

JuliusCaesar

There's a great deal of discussion in the psychology world about psychiatric diagnosis. Unlike diagnoses in general medicine, the psychiatric diagnosis is atheoretical, descriptive and non-explanatory. Here's a relevant link.

The formulation or case conceptualisation which I use in CBT uses psychological theory to explain why this particular person developed this particular disorder, the reasons for fluctuations in severity, and the likely course of the disorder without intervention. From this, we can work out the best way to treat the problem. So each formulation is specific for each individual.