The legacy of Fianna Fáil?

paddyland

paddyland wrote: »

My question is this: In eight decades of predominantly Fianna Fáil led governments, putting aside all the corruption and desecration of the country, can somebody please list for me the main achievements of that party in government over all that period of time? What did they build, what did they fund, what did they leave as a legacy? Because I'm damned if I can find one good thing, other than O'Malley introducing free education in the '60s. They seem to exist purely to channel all the country's resources towards a narrow sector of society, and for nothing of a greater good nature that doesn't involve a lucrative cash cow opportunity for some of their friends.

Returning to my first question, we are now on page three, and nobody has yet put forward a credible achievement of FF in eight DECADES of power, other than my own suggestion of free education under Donogh O'Malley, who seemed to release it without reference to the rest of his party, and another suggestion of Lemass leading us towards the EEC. I wouldn't give FF credit for rural electrification, WT Cosgrave started that.

IS THAT IT?

ArmaniJeanss

paddyland wrote: »

I wouldn't give FF credit for rural electrification, WT Cosgrave started that.

But it was continued under successive FF governments, you really are making a mockery of your thread if you argue this way as you can twist anything to support your initial argument.
e.g, it wasn't FFs idea but they supported it, continued to fund it,progressed it towards completion. But because it wasn't their original idea then they get no credit?
A huge bulk of Rural Electrification happened between 1937 and 1949 under EDeValera.

paddyland wrote: »

IS THAT IT?

Depending on your opinion of the Irish Constitution then this could be construed as a good FF thing.

Keeping neutral during WW2, was this good or bad? Some people hold our neutrality as important - others see the fact that it ultimately denied us being part of the Marsahll Aid Plan as being a disaster.

The stance they took during the Iraq invasion was arguably a masterly bit of realpolitik (Don't annoy the Americans by refusing them use of Shannon, don't ask them too many questions so you can't be accused of facilitating bad stuff). Helped keep the US government sweet towards us but plenty of people will have construed it as wrong and cowardly and an absolute disgrace.

I think you are taking a too simplistic view of the nature of politics and governance.... its probably possible to argue that no government anywhere has ever done anything completely worthwhile.

ninty9er

hobochris wrote: »

One of my grievances with FF is that the Government that is in today was never voted for by the people, I.e FF did not put forward Cowen as Taoiseach in the last election, It was Berty's government the people voted in, Cowen got the position of Taoiseach by sneaking in the back door.

Brian Cowen was elected by majproty of the Dáil as every other Taoiseach has been. He is also the person credited(blmaed) within the party for winning the 2007 General Election as Bertie was too busy dealing with personal issues.

He could have engineered an election at any time over the last 15 months to get out of the ****, but he hasn't, he is continuing to do what he believes is right for the country, and as much as an election would be bad for Fianna Fáil, it would be bad for the country too. I've rarely seen someone so committed to their public duty as Biffo. There's no point arguing otherwise, because he'd have infinitely more time with his family, much less stress and retain all the fringe benefits of a former Taoiseach, as well as a TDs salary and a leaders allowance.

Martin 2 wrote: »

These are achievements for Lynch and Lemass but not FF in general, in fact De Valera (FF leader 1926-59) was opposed to Ireland joining the EEC and it was only after his influence over FF ended that they could even contemplate EEC membership. In fact in the radio series Judging Dev, his grandson Eamonn O Cuiv TD stated that he believed that Dev voted against Irish accession in the 1973 referendum. It could be argued that had we not had FF governments from the late fifties to the early 70's then we could have joined the EEC at an earlier stage, thereby ending years of economic stagnation sooner.

Go do some research, we were too dependent on Britain for exports and DeGaulle was opposed to their entry, meaning it wasn't possible for us to go in earlier.

• National roads infrastructure: some behind schedule and overbudget, some ahead of schedule and under-budget, but massively superior to what was there in 1997.
• SSIA: yes it had its negatives, but overall it took money out of an overinflated economy, that was a move to curb the excesses.
• The negotiation of the Contisitutional Treaty (subsequently lost in France and Holland) was mediated by the Irish Government.
• Smoking ban: mentioned above:
• Transport 21: For all the mockery, this showed extreme foresight as it enveloped the money so that regardless of who was in power it had to be spent as outlined in the original plan.
• Road Safety - take a look at the figures!
• The Irish Nationality and Citizenship referendum, saving us a fortune on socaial welfare payments, albeit a little late in the day.
• Public transport: Luas was commissioned in 1998, busses and trains have undergone immense investment.
• Airports: Haven't been to Cork for a while, but Dublin and Shannon are practically unrecognisable from what they were 15 years ago.

Okay, maybe you don't like what the money was spent on, and as a matter of opinion you can contend that Fianna Fáil squadered the boom, the fact is that more investment has gone into national infrastructure over the past 10 years than at any time in the history of the state.

And if it isn't quite clear from the above, yes, I am a member of Fianna Fáil.

Lockstep

paddyland wrote: »

My question is this: In eight decades of predominantly Fianna Fáil led governments, putting aside all the corruption and desecration of the country, can somebody please list for me the main achievements of that party in government over all that period of time? What did they build, what did they fund, what did they leave as a legacy? Because I'm damned if I can find one good thing, other than O'Malley introducing free education in the '60s. They seem to exist purely to channel all the country's resources towards a narrow sector of society, and for nothing of a greater good nature that doesn't involve a lucrative cash cow opportunity for some of their friends.

LeMass was pretty good in fairness; brought in the 60s boom.

Also; the Luas.

old boy

young 99er, all of what you say fianna failure has done has been funded by the eu, i could say more but i am an old boy with sense.

ninty9er

old boy wrote: »

young 99er, all of what you say fianna failure has done has been funded by the eu, i could say more but i am an old boy with sense.

The EU funded the smoking ban and road safety improvements? I could say more, but if Brian Cowen said the sky was blue you'd disagree just because he's leader of Fianna Fáil, so I won't bother.

brianthebard

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

But it was continued under successive FF governments, you really are making a mockery of your thread if you argue this way as you can twist anything to support your initial argument.
e.g, it wasn't FFs idea but they supported it, continued to fund it,progressed it towards completion. But because it wasn't their original idea then they get no credit?
A huge bulk of Rural Electrification happened between 1937 and 1949 under EDeValera.



Depending on your opinion of the Irish Constitution then this could be construed as a good FF thing.

Keeping neutral during WW2, was this good or bad? Some people hold our neutrality as important - others see the fact that it ultimately denied us being part of the Marsahll Aid Plan as being a disaster.

Ireland was not excluded from Marshall aid.

ArmaniJeanss

brianthebard wrote: »

Ireland was not excluded from Marshall aid.

I think we received loans rather than direct aid, so we had a different commitment to repayment. Whilst officially everyone was eventually supposed to repay it was accepted that those countries under Marshall Aid would never repay (they didn't) whereas those with Marshall Loans like us had a repayment schedule, though I'm not sure whether we did repay or not in the end. Its bloody complicated

I think its a tangent from my point though, my boring point being that if you start from a position of 'X political party has never done anything positive for its country' as the OP has done thats it very difficult to disprove.
As almost every good idea will either be a) traceable in its roots back to someone else, b) a fix to a previous bad idea of the party, c) why didnt they do it sooner or d) have had some negative consequences as well.

X Ray

I supported FF and was a member for years, I believe it is now beyond repair though. The corruption is so deep that is cannot now be saved. The country needs to move on as quickly as possible.

Dannyboy83

bmaxi

ninty9er wrote: »

The EU funded the smoking ban and road safety improvements? I could say more, but if Brian Cowen said the sky was blue you'd disagree just because he's leader of Fianna Fáil, so I won't bother.

Why are there huge signs on our major roads informing us that much of the funding came from the EU?
Oh and actually the sky is not blue.

Colm R

ninty9er wrote: »

• National roads infrastructure: some behind schedule and overbudget, some ahead of schedule and under-budget, but massively superior to what was there in 1997.

The National Road Infrastructure has improved dramatically. But this is a given and is needed and expected. Any other country would have expected a lot more. The legacy here is that at the end of 2009, there is still no contiuous motorway connecting any city in Ireland. The legacy here is while its welcome, it should have been implemented years ago.

ninty9er wrote: »

• SSIA: yes it had its negatives, but overall it took money out of an overinflated economy, that was a move to curb the excesses.

When it matured, it was spend spend spend. FF are not entirely responsible for that, but they did encourage people to buy houses as it was only going to go up. A lot of peoples SSIA's (used as deposits) are now gone.

ninty9er wrote: »

• The negotiation of the Contisitutional Treaty (subsequently lost in France and Holland) was mediated by the Irish Government.

Yes it was, and credit is due to the government on this. But it did fail.

ninty9er wrote: »

• Smoking ban: mentioned above:

Yes - and credit to the government and Michael Martin.

ninty9er wrote: »

• Transport 21: For all the mockery, this showed extreme foresight as it enveloped the money so that regardless of who was in power it had to be spent as outlined in the original plan.

mmm. For all the money we had in the boom, we had two light rail tracks. Public Transport is an embarrassment in this country. We can talk about many things here, but I will pick one - "Integrated Ticketing". Failure.

ninty9er wrote: »

• Road Safety - take a look at the figures!

Agreed, it is improving. Thankfully.

ninty9er wrote: »

• The Irish Nationality and Citizenship referendum, saving us a fortune on socaial welfare payments, albeit a little late in the day.

Agreed.

ninty9er wrote: »

• Public transport: Luas was commissioned in 1998, busses and trains have undergone immense investment.

Like above, I don't agree with you here. Lets pick something else this time - "Real Time Information".

ninty9er wrote: »

• Airports: Haven't been to Cork for a while, but Dublin and Shannon are practically unrecognisable from what they were 15 years ago.

Cork has a wonderful airport now, albeit years too late. There is a lot of bitterness in Cork Airport, and to how it was treated through the years. Dublins second terminal is also years too late. And Shannon is highly dependent on the war on terrorism.

old boy

ninty9er wrote: »

The EU funded the smoking ban and road safety improvements? I could say more, but if Brian Cowen said the sky was blue you'd disagree just because he's leader of Fianna Fáil, so I won't bother.

i do not care who is leader of any party, if you bothered to look thro my posts you would have seen my opinion of other party leaders, an advantage of living in a democracy is being able to voice ones opinions, also one advantage of being old and grey, is one has seen and heard all the type and tripe, plus having the wisdom ? to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

paddyland

Hurrah for the smoking ban, the best piece of legislation ever to come out of this country.

Funnily enough, it costs nothing to implement. Perhaps we lose a little in revenue, but to hell with that, we gain it back in the health system.

It is legislation that would have come in anyway. It was nice to be ahead of most of the pack just once, and shows that Ireland could actually lead the way on so many issues, instead of always trailing in last and screaming.

Mickey Martin, THE shrewdest man in the FF cabinet today, there's a man who looks much further ahead than any of his colleagues. He gained an enormous personal kudos with this, at practically no cost to the exchequer or to his department. It also meant he could see out his tenure in health with the spotlight taken off all the other glaring inadequacies in that department, which existed under his tenure just as much as Harney or anyone else.

This guy also managed to be Mr. Good Guy during the Lisbon negotiations. And he seems to have an unwitting ability to keep his nose clean, and remain totally media savvy. He is not over exposed in the media, but seems to have the balance just right, appearing seldom, and strictly only when he can look good. He is an unnervingly cool debater too.

I was going to mention the smoking ban earlier, but I felt it was too much of a personal bandwagon for Martin, and not a wholly neutral thing. I can see Martin gaining the leadership of FF. He is too far ahead of anyone else. He remains an astute operator when all else are scrambling around in panic. It remains to be seen what he would do with the leadership if he got it. Ireland's history is littered with ambitious leaders who hadn't a clue what to do when they attained the leadership.

IF he presided over a ruthless tooth and nail cleanout of that party, and then masterminded a complete and utter overhaul of the jaded and inefficient political system, numbers of seats, voting, the whole lot, then he could write himself a genuine political legacy. If not, then he is a complete waste of years just like all the other FF wasters down the decades.

rcunning03

prinz wrote: »

Yeah, it's enough to make you wonder who voted them in.... repeatedly.:rolleyes:

My thoughts exactly!

zootroid

kickoutthejams wrote: »

LeMass was pretty good in fairness; brought in the 60s boom.

Also; the Luas.

Didn't the luas cost something like 800 million and go way over budget?

Pretty expensive piece of infrastructure for two lines that don't even meet, and serve a very small portion of Dublin's population. I would love to see similar infrastructure projects completed in other countries to see just how expensive it was. But the fact that it went way over budget and the lines don't meet speaks volumes.

prinz

zootroid wrote: »

Didn't the luas cost something like 800 million and go way over budget?
Pretty expensive piece of infrastructure for two lines that don't even meet, and serve a very small portion of Dublin's population. I would love to see similar infrastructure projects completed in other countries to see just how expensive it was. But the fact that it went way over budget and the lines don't meet speaks volumes.

+1, especially when you consider, I think it is Bordeaux, where a similar system was constructed by the same company. Only they started after Dublin, finished before, it cost less, for a much bigger system of tracks/routes.

rcunning03

prinz wrote: »

+1, especially when you consider, I think it is Bordeaux, where a similar system was constructed by the same company. Only they started after Dublin, finished before, it cost less, for a much bigger system of tracks/routes.

Anyone know the real reasons why that is? Did the French trample over property rights to get it achieved that quickly and cheaply? or is it really just a case of us being completely run by corrupt Paddies?

prinz

rcunning03 wrote: »

Anyone know the real reasons why that is? Did the French trample over property rights to get it achieved that quickly and cheaply? or is it really just a case of us being completely run by corrupt Paddies?

Bit of both. I know in France the state gets what the state wants. If they say they're building a motorway through your village you can complain until you're blue in the face :pac: I quite like the system they run. It means things get done, and none of this NIMBY-ism.

rasper

Originally Posted by prinz
Yeah, it's enough to make you wonder who voted them in.... repeatedly.


My thoughts exactly!



Or the 40% of registered voters who didnt bother their arse even to vote

Martin 2

ninty9er wrote: »

Originally Posted by hobochris
One of my grievances with FF is that the Government that is in today was never voted for by the people, I.e FF did not put forward Cowen as Taoiseach in the last election, It was Berty's government the people voted in, Cowen got the position of Taoiseach by sneaking in the back door.

Brian Cowen was elected by majproty of the Dáil as every other Taoiseach has been. He is also the person credited(blmaed) within the party for winning the 2007 General Election as Bertie was too busy dealing with personal issues.

He could have engineered an election at any time over the last 15 months to get out of the ****, but he hasn't, he is continuing to do what he believes is right for the country, and as much as an election would be bad for Fianna Fáil, it would be bad for the country too. I've rarely seen someone so committed to their public duty as Biffo. There's no point arguing otherwise, because he'd have infinitely more time with his family, much less stress and retain all the fringe benefits of a former Taoiseach, as well as a TDs salary and a leaders allowance.

Originally Posted by Martin 2
These are achievements for Lynch and Lemass but not FF in general, in fact De Valera (FF leader 1926-59) was opposed to Ireland joining the EEC and it was only after his influence over FF ended that they could even contemplate EEC membership. In fact in the radio series Judging Dev, his grandson Eamonn O Cuiv TD stated that he believed that Dev voted against Irish accession in the 1973 referendum. It could be argued that had we not had FF governments from the late fifties to the early 70's then we could have joined the EEC at an earlier stage, thereby ending years of economic stagnation sooner.

Go do some research, we were too dependent on Britain for exports and DeGaulle was opposed to their entry, meaning it wasn't possible for us to go in earlier.

• National roads infrastructure: some behind schedule and overbudget, some ahead of schedule and under-budget, but massively superior to what was there in 1997.
• SSIA: yes it had its negatives, but overall it took money out of an overinflated economy, that was a move to curb the excesses.
• The negotiation of the Contisitutional Treaty (subsequently lost in France and Holland) was mediated by the Irish Government.
• Smoking ban: mentioned above:
• Transport 21: For all the mockery, this showed extreme foresight as it enveloped the money so that regardless of who was in power it had to be spent as outlined in the original plan.
• Road Safety - take a look at the figures!
• The Irish Nationality and Citizenship referendum, saving us a fortune on socaial welfare payments, albeit a little late in the day.
• Public transport: Luas was commissioned in 1998, busses and trains have undergone immense investment.
• Airports: Haven't been to Cork for a while, but Dublin and Shannon are practically unrecognisable from what they were 15 years ago.

Okay, maybe you don't like what the money was spent on, and as a matter of opinion you can contend that Fianna Fáil squadered the boom, the fact is that more investment has gone into national infrastructure over the past 10 years than at any time in the history of the state.

And if it isn't quite clear from the above, yes, I am a member of Fianna Fáil.

I am well aware that De Gaulle was opposed to UK accession and that Ireland was very dependent on UK exports but in ways that was a reason to join the EEC at an earlier stage to reduce our dependence on the UK. I find it ironic that a self proclaimed Fianna-Fáiler would cite dependence on UK trade as a reason for not joining the EEC when your progenitor (De Valera) launched an earlier economic war with the UK at a time of great poverty. Lemass and Lynch worked towards EEC membership and they deserve credit for that but their predecessor De Valera and his isolationist legacy militated against Ireland's membership and with a different government maybe we could have joined sooner.

A word of advice, using expressions like "Go do some research" does not endear you to your electorate and will not help your party's re-election chances.

brianthebard

Martin 2 wrote: »

I am well aware that De Gaulle was opposed to UK accession and that Ireland was very dependent on UK exports but in ways that was a reason to join the EEC at an earlier stage to reduce our dependence on the UK. I find it ironic that a self proclaimed Fianna-Fáiler would cite dependence on UK trade as a reason for not joining the EEC when your progenitor (De Valera) launched an earlier economic war with the UK at a time of great poverty. Lemass and Lynch worked towards EEC membership and they deserve credit for that but their predecessor De Valera and his isolationist legacy militated against Ireland's membership and with a different government maybe we could have joined sooner.

I believe Ireland was a member of the League of Nations while DeV was taoiseach and was one of the first members of the council of Europe, so the point on isolationism is moot really. Furthermore most if not all of the EEC members would have had isolationist policies of some sort in the 1930s, so again I can't see how that on its own would prevent our entry to the EEC.

jank

National roads infrastructure: some behind schedule and overbudget, some ahead of schedule and under-budget, but massively superior to what was there in 1997. For all the money we spent we should have a better road system than the one we have where all new roads lead to Dublin. Nevermind that most of these are tolled like the M50. M8 etc FF looking after its builder friends again. Have you tried driving to Limerick from Cork. The main road is a road that was planned back in the 19th century.


SSIA: yes it had its negatives, but overall it took money out of an overinflated economy, that was a move to curb the excesses. And in turn pumped billions of euro into an economy that was ready to burst due to excess's in car and property right before the election of 2007. Good ol Bertie only a few billion to buy the 2007 election. Value of money for him alright. How much did it cost the tax payer?


The negotiation of the Contisitutional Treaty (subsequently lost in France and Holland) was mediated by the Irish Government. Why bother when we have to keep voting for the same thing until we say "Qui"

Smoking ban: mentioned above: Amazing what a simple solution can do to solve a simple problem, unfortunately this is rather the exception rather than the rule

Transport 21: For all the mockery, this showed extreme foresight as it enveloped the money so that regardless of who was in power it had to be spent as outlined in the original plan. Don't get me started. They should rename it Dublin 21 as it did NOTHING for the rest of the country. Anyway it will never be implemented as the country is now bust. And yet again Dublin is the ONLY European capital without a train link to the airport from the City. Thank you FF!

Road Safety - take a look at the figures! The figures are the some of the worst in Europe. Also one has to look at it from the outside where one can fail their test and drive away legally on their own.:eek:

The Irish Nationality and Citizenship referendum, saving us a fortune on social welfare payments, albeit a little late in the day. Agree with this but wasn't this a PD move?

Public transport: Luas was commissioned in 1998, busses and trains have undergone immense investment. Aahhhahaahaha Are you actually telling me that Public transport is something to be proud of in Ireland after FF got their filthy hands on it!! LUAS two lines that don't even intersect! Trains that go from cork to Dublin are now SLOWER than they were 100 years ago, Bus services outside the capital are rubbish especially in the urban centres. Why is CIE managing all of the bus services in the entire country? Unions have an iron cast grip on transport in this country..... I could go on and on and on....

Airports: Haven't been to Cork for a while, but Dublin and Shannon are practically unrecognisable from what they were 15 years ago. OMFG :eek: yeap Cork airport is lovely but thanks to a roll back on a cast iron promise from FF that cork airport would be debt free once independent they are now saddled with debt thus cannot compete even with Shannon for Ryanair slots nevermind being "banned" from offering trans Atlantic services.

Shannon a union infested airport that thinks everyone ows them a living. Dont think it has changed in the last 15 years mind.

As for Dublin if you are seriously saying that Dublin Airport as of today late 2009 is a FF achievement than FF are more out of touch with reality than I thought. I have traveled the world and have yet to encounter the chaos and utter "don't give a $hit" attitude of the staff there. If 3rd world countries can run an airport why cant we??


FF have no clue what so ever to the anger out there. FF have failed the country, they have failed the state, they have failed themselves yet keep harping on about "progress" as if it were some despotic government clinging onto power as if it's elixir of life. FF is nothing without power.

Kick them to the kerb, assign them to the cess pool of history that is FF's history of government in this Island. Let us start again with a proper vision what is right in a western European society. Have a proper left right divide in Labour and FG. Maybe then we will not let any government destroy the country ..yet again.