How would you do it

dvpower

ei.sdraob wrote: »

theres a "Communion allowance"?

****ing hell :mad:

I doubt that theres an actual Communion allowance (I hope not anyway).
I suspect its a discretionary payment made by Community Welfare Officers.

OMD

[QUOTE/]
so to summarize ESB is an example of how "privatization" should be done while maintaining key stake-holding

i think alot of the PS can be modeled in this fashion, and it can be a win-win for all (higher wages linked to increased productivity not benchmarking) as happened with ESB[/QUOTE]

win win for everyone except the 4 million people who were dependant on ESB for electricity. We went from one of the lowest cost electricity providers in Europe to one of the dearest. This allowed fir increased wages and more importantly the ability to now reduce prices. It is a bit of a con job really. Increase prices hugely then start reducing them again and look for praise fir reducing them

ei.sdraob

OMD wrote: »

win win for everyone except the 4 million people who were dependant on ESB for electricity. We went from one of the lowest cost electricity providers in Europe to one of the dearest. This allowed fir increased wages and more importantly the ability to now reduce prices. It is a bit of a con job really. Increase prices hugely then start reducing them again and look for praise fir reducing them

did you read my post?


ESB are not allowed by the regulator to lower prices as that would "hurt" competition by making them compete
ESB is not allowed to go into windpower either for above reason
please read that again


ESB only produce 60% of power now and this will continue to fall to about 30% as there is work underway to close down plants while billions are being spend in order to cleanup existing plants (see moneypoint scrubbers costing 3rd of a billion)

why dont you google their financial statements, wages are tiny part of the costs for ESB, main cost is fuel which as you know went stratospheric in 2008 especially oil and gas

here
http://www.esb.ie/downloads/about_esb/2008/English/Financial%20Review%202008.pdf
or
http://www.esb.ie/downloads/about_esb/esb-summary-regulatory-accounts-2007-v1.pdf


now why dont you run along and calculate what % of ESBs costs are employee related?

OMD

About 20 years ago we had the cheapest electricity in Europe. We now have the dearest. Why? To prepare us for privatisation.CCosts of fuel increased for everyone. I am talking about the comparative cost of electricity in Ireland and the rest of Europe.

During most of that time there was no option for domestic users but ESB so 4 million people were effected.

Wages in ESB have increased in that period by multiples of the rate of inflation.

MaceFace

ei.sdraob wrote: »

did you read my post?


ESB are not allowed by the regulator to lower prices as that would "hurt" competition by making them compete
ESB is not allowed to go into windpower either for above reason
please read that again


ESB only produce 60% of power now and this will continue to fall to about 30% as there is work underway to close down plants while billions are being spend in order to cleanup existing plants (see moneypoint scrubbers costing 3rd of a billion)

why dont you google their financial statements, wages are tiny part of the costs for ESB, main cost is fuel which as you know went stratospheric in 2008 especially oil and gas

here
http://www.esb.ie/downloads/about_esb/2008/English/Financial%20Review%202008.pdf
or
http://www.esb.ie/downloads/about_esb/esb-summary-regulatory-accounts-2007-v1.pdf


now why dont you run along and calculate what % of ESBs costs are employee related?

Can you then explain why electricity in Ireland is among the highest in Europe then?

ei.sdraob

MaceFace wrote: »

Can you then explain why electricity in Ireland is among the highest in Europe then?

several reasons

1. being at end of gas pipelines

2. oil and coal going up (which has to be imported unlike germany which has alot coal)

3. no nuclear in mix (75% in france)

4. bad grid with no interconnection (making it harder add windmills etc)

5. no planning permission being given for decades to build any new more efficient plants

6. plants closing down due to end of life

7. regulator ordering the prices kept high and not allowing falls in order to "stimulate" competition and make it profitable for them (airtricity,bord gas, bord na mona etc)

8. energy market/auction only coming into play in last few years

OMD wrote: »

Wages in ESB have increased in that period by multiples of the rate of inflation.

i posted the data for you, wages are small portion of ESBs costs

neither are they in public sector, nor private, if ESB was truly private they would close down here overnight and move to the continent where there is alot more money to be made (yes thats the sentiment inside the company) and a proper energy market


as i said "privatization" like the ESB would be a win win for everyone including PS employees

Heroditas

OMD wrote: »

About 20 years ago we had the cheapest electricity in Europe. We now have the dearest. Why?

Because there was absolutely zero investment in the grid infrastructure for 20 years. The infrastructure was in terrible condition and needed to be upgraded.
The MWhr price here is practically the same as in many other European countries.
It's the system charges that are high .... and the money from these is being used for the upgrades.

Also, energy is heavily subsidised in mainland European countries. That always seems to be brushed under the carpet when discussing energy costs.

OMD wrote: »

Wages in ESB have increased in that period by multiples of the rate of inflation.

They provide an excellent service and many of their staff are highly respected worldwide.
ESB carries out lots of work in the energy industry internationally. They make a lot of money for this state, unlike a lot of other state bodies.
As a result, they are one of the few bodies that actually earns its wages


I'm not an employee of the ESB by the way.

bamboozle

as a matter of interest, does anyone have a rough idea what percentage of public service workers retire each year?

just wondering what the government will be making in savings on salaries of those who'll be retiring.

OMD

ei.sdraob wrote: »

7. regulator ordering the prices kept high and not allowing falls in order to "stimulate" competition and make it profitable for them (airtricity,bord gas, bord na mona etc)

8. energy market/auction only coming into play in last few years

i posted the data for you, wages are small portion of ESBs costs

neither are they in public sector, nor private, if ESB was truly private they would close down here overnight and move to the continent where there is alot more money to be made (yes thats the sentiment inside the company) and a proper energy market

as i said "privatization" like the ESB would be a win win for everyone including PS employees

privatisation was good for employees who got huge above inflation pay rises. (the percentage of overall costs is irrelevant in that argument) It is good for iinvesties in energy companies. It is not good for consumers who have to pay artificially high electricity prices. So it is a win loose situation with the average person being the looser

Heroditas

OMD wrote: »

It is not good for consumers who have to pay artificially high electricity prices. So it is a win loose situation with the average person being the looser

Switch to Bord Gáis or Airtricity then and save a minimum of 10%

ei.sdraob

Heroditas wrote: »

Switch to Bord Gáis or Airtricity then and save a minimum of 10%

thats the thing ESB were gonna cut by 15% but regulator stopped them as that would make Bord Gas and Airtricity appear expensive

put the blame where the blame lies

OMD

Heroditas wrote: »

Switch to Bord Gáis or Airtricity then and save a minimum of 10%

I have already switched but that is not the point. Privatisation is supposed to be "good for everyone" but it has not. ESB prices were increased artificially so people like Bord Gais could enter Market and undercut ESB. So we had to pay higher prices first with no choice of operator. Only now do we have a choice but even still we are over paying for our electricity.

Privatisation has cost the ordinary consumer. To define it as win wi. Is ridiculous.

OMD

ei.sdraob wrote: »

thats the thing ESB were gonna cut by 15% but regulator stopped them as that would make Bord Gas and Airtricity appear expensive

put the blame where the blame lies

So you agree we are over paying for our electricity. How can that be win win

ei.sdraob

OMD wrote: »

So you agree we are over paying for our electricity. How can that be win win

im very patiently trying to explain that

ESB != Regulator

capiche?

we are overpaying but its not due to ESB


blame the government for high prices they are the ones keeping it high via their regulator, remember that ESB is a huge taxpayer and is half owned by the state

its in the states interest to rip people off to pay

OMD

ei.sdraob wrote: »

im very patiently trying to explain that

ESB != Regulator

capiche?

we are overpaying but its not due to ESB


blame the government for high prices they are the ones keeping it high via their regulator, remember that ESB is a huge taxpayer and is half owned by the state

its in the states interest to rip people off to pay

I am not saying it is ESBs fault. You said privitisation like ESBs is a win win situation. Once again it is not. It has cost the ordinary consumer in artificially higher prices. Capiche?

ESB workers benefited and investors benefited. So it is not a win win situation. It is a win loose situation as I hVe now said 3 times and you seen unable to contradict.

ei.sdraob

OMD wrote: »

I am not saying it is ESBs fault. You said privitisation like ESBs is a win win situation. Once again it is not. It has cost the ordinary consumer in artificially higher prices. Capiche?

ESB workers benefited and investors benefited. So it is not a win win situation. It is a win loose situation as I hVe now said 3 times and you seen unable to contradict.

aghghghghghgh

which part of

ESB want to lower prices but are not allowed by regulator
you dont understand?

take the regulator out and its a win win

ART6

Back to the OP, what would I do? I've said this before but can't resist doing so again -- it's becoming my favourite hobby horse -- In 2006 there were an estimated 1,000 quangos in Ireland, costing approximately €13billions a year to run. So perhaps it's reasonable to assume (given the average inflation in government spending that's probably taken it to €16 billions now), that if I abolish all of them and make the €4 billions in cuts that BL is seeking, then I have just about solved the nations P&L account problems.

OMD

ei.sdraob wrote: »

aghghghghghgh

which part of

ESB want to lower prices but are not allowed by regulator
you dont understand?

take the regulator out and its a win win

but the regulator is a huge part of it.

1 question:
You say it us win win. Who has won? The consumer certainly hasn't except for less strikes in ESB.

MaceFace

ART6 wrote: »

Back to the OP, what would I do? I've said this before but can't resist doing so again -- it's becoming my favourite hobby horse -- In 2006 there were an estimated 1,000 quangos in Ireland, costing approximately €13billions a year to run. So perhaps it's reasonable to assume (given the average inflation in government spending that's probably taken it to €16 billions now), that if I abolish all of them and make the €4 billions in cuts that BL is seeking, then I have just about solved the nations P&L account problems.

Quangos costing 13billion?
Give us some examples of the big ones.

OMD

MaceFace wrote: »

Quangos costing 13billion?
Give us some examples of the big ones.

As well as some big examples can you show us that they are totally useless. That abolishing them would be all good.

ART6

MaceFace wrote: »

Quangos costing 13billion?
Give us some examples of the big ones.

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1822018.html

ei.sdraob

OMD wrote: »

but the regulator is a huge part of it.

ffs for the last time :rolleyes:

the regulator is not part of ESB

we would have been in alot worse situation if ESB wasn't "privatized" and the regulator would still there

gerire

ART6 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1822018.html

Page not found can you repost the link pls

OMD

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ffs for the last time :rolleyes:

the regulator is not part of ESB

we would have been in alot worse situation if ESB wasn't "privatized" and the regulator would still there

FFS who has won? It is win win. Who has won?

ART6

gerire wrote: »

Page not found can you repost the link pls

For some reason that I don't understand I can't get the link to work either, but it was first in my post in the ES forum "Are ES and Public Sector Going To Get Hammered In Upcoming Budget", post #34. That link works. The text is (copy and paste job, sorry!):


'Jobs for the boys' soar over 10 years Irish Independent Wednesday July 15 2009 "THE number of quangos, or state agencies, operating countrywide has escalated to almost 1,000 over the last 10 years. The proliferation of authorities, boards, advisory committees, strategy groups, agencies, state-owned limited companies and state-sponsored bodies ended up costing taxpayers €13bn in 2006 alone. Between 1998 and 2006, the staffing levels at 39 agencies increased by 13pc, while the budget levels at 45 agencies increased by 74pc, according to Fine Gael research. Some 2,416 people were appointed to serve on the boards of quangos on the direct nomination of Government ministers-prompting Opposition claims that Fianna Fail was simply creating "jobs for the boys". In a major OECD report published last year, the Government was criticised for creating so many "arms-length bodies" and claimed that the situation now amounted to an "organisational zoo". Months later, the Government announced new proposals to axe 41 quangos. However, as briefing notes from the Department of Health have shown, it will take up to two years to complete the merging of 15 health quangos which are costing the State €122m annually."

ei.sdraob

OMD wrote: »

FFS who has won? It is win win. Who has won?

sigh

the country has won (see below) and the employees has won (higher wages due to being more productive not some sham benchmarking)
now if the regulator gets a grip then customers would win too


if ESB remained state owned there would more than likely have been power cuts (as happened in 80s when they decided to strike) during the recent and upcoming PS strikes


now powercuts would have made an impact and also affected a large portion of the private sector

ardmacha

if ESB remained state owned there would more than likely have been power cuts (as happened in 80s when they decided to strike) during the recent and upcoming PS strikes

So who does own the ESB then?

seclachi

ardmacha wrote: »

So who does own the ESB then?

i think the public-private model of ESB is what alot of the public sector can be modeled after

the company was split into ~4 subcompanies (power gen, customer supply, international etc) with a division called "shared services" this is HR, IT, accounting etc providing shared services to the above, very efficient
the grid remained under state control and was moved to eirgird

the company is half owned by state, a bit by private investors and another bit by employees; hence a powerful motivator to generate profits and close down old inneficient/dirty plants, and the state maintains a stake so they dont go Enron like on our asses

Quoting cos im lazy

OMD

ei.sdraob wrote: »

sigh

the country has won (see below) and the employees has won (higher wages due to being more productive not some sham benchmarking)
now if the regulator gets a grip then customers would win too


if ESB remained state owned there would more than likely have been power cuts (as happened in 80s when they decided to strike) during the recent and upcoming PS strikes


now powercuts would have made an impact and also affected a large portion of the private sector

Now you are just having a laugh. Were you a union rep with ESB?

Did you know protection money is win win. They get money and you don't get your legs broken. Win win.

ei.sdraob

OMD wrote: »

Now you are just having a laugh. Were you a union rep with ESB?

Did you know protection money is win win. They get money and you don't get your legs broken. Win win.

lol i dont like unions im just trying to explain how things work in the context of this thread. but no matter how many facts i throw at you, you just ignore whats being said since somehow your under the impression that your ESB bills are high because of their wages, mind you nothing stopping you from switching providers

im triedto explain how ESB style privatization could be used as part of a solution for the PS as a whole

but if you dont believe me or lived thru 80s then please open google and lookup how ESB held the country ransom before

these strikes would have been much worse if there was no electricity, hell we wouldnt be having this chat