Are all irish people to blame for the abuse in the Catholic Church?

Spacedog

Since when the government decided to limit the liability of the Church, long before the extent of the abuse was known, and that it is now known that the church knew the true extent of the abuse (and the projected financial liability) and covered up, then accepted the settlement of liability.

Seems to me that the Irish people were perfectly happy with this situation. We were and ARE all perfectly happy to foot the full bill of liability, through taxation, in a time of recession for crimes we did not commit, did not cover up, and had no control over what so ever.

Those responsible are:

1) The individuals who perpetrated the abuse (many have escaped justice)
2) The Catholic Church upper hierarchy from Archbishops upwards to the Pope in Dublin and in Rome who limited their liability through careful management and manipulation of law, political influence, and public relations.
3) The Public Services and past Government for turning their backs on these crimes and having faith in the Church to do the right thing at it's own expense, instead of following an ethical criminal process. (perhaps for fear of political unpopularity by a still largely faithful public.)
4) The Government of the present for promising action to the reporters and the press, but will say or do nothing else until the next report comes out in 10 years time...
5) The Irish People for being aware of this exact situation long before this report was published, and not having the courage, passion or the balls to demand justice from the perpetrators, or severe financial penalties from the institution that allowed it.


OK Rant Over, mods feel free to lock the thread for flaming like you did with the last one I posted a few weeks ago when the issue didn't matter to anyone...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055711729

I'll post another one in 10 years good luck.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Spacedog wrote: »

Since when the government decided to limit the liability of the Church, long before the extent of the abuse was known, and that it is now known that the church knew the true extent of the abuse (and the projected financial liability) and covered up, then accepted the settlement of liability.

Seems to me that the Irish people were perfectly happy with this situation. We were and ARE all perfectly happy to foot the full bill of liability, through taxation, in a time of recession for crimes we did not commit, did not cover up, and had no control over what so ever.

Those responsible are:

1) The individuals who perpetrated the abuse (many have escaped justice)
2) The Catholic Church upper hierarchy from Archbishops upwards to the Pope in Dublin and in Rome who limited their liability through careful management and manipulation of law, political influence, and public relations.
3) The Public Services and past Government for turning their backs on these crimes and having faith in the Church to do the right thing at it's own expense, instead of following an ethical criminal process. (perhaps for fear of political unpopularity by a still largely faithful public.)
4) The Government of the present for promising action to the reporters and the press, but will say or do nothing else until the next report comes out in 10 years time...
5) The Irish People for being aware of this exact situation long before this report was published, and not having the courage, passion or the balls to demand justice from the perpetrators, or severe financial penalties from the institution that allowed it.


OK Rant Over, mods feel free to lock the thread for flaming like you did with the last one I posted a few weeks ago when the issue didn't matter to anyone...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055711729

I'll post another one in 10 years good luck.

Haven't read your post, but in answer to your thread title... No. Stop being silly.

Fuhrer

No.

TheZohanS

No.

thomond2006

Dear God No!

mike65

Only those who abused, those who had the power to stop the abuse, those who had the power to prosecute the abusers and those who knew or seriously suspected something but said nothing are to blame.

Dunno how many that is.

Dionysus

Spacedog wrote: »

Since when the government decided to limit the liability of the Church, long before the extent of the abuse was known, and that it is now known that the church knew the true extent of the abuse (and the projected financial liability) and covered up, then accepted the settlement of liability.

Seems to me that the Irish people were perfectly happy with this situation. We were and ARE all perfectly happy to foot the full bill of liability, through taxation, in a time of recession for crimes we did not commit, did not cover up, and had no control over what so ever.

Those responsible are:

1) The individuals who perpetrated the abuse (many have escaped justice)
2) The Catholic Church upper hierarchy from Archbishops upwards to the Pope in Dublin and in Rome who limited their liability through careful management and manipulation of law, political influence, and public relations.
3) The Public Services and past Government for turning their backs on these crimes and having faith in the Church to do the right thing at it's own expense, instead of following an ethical criminal process. (perhaps for fear of political unpopularity by a still largely faithful public.)
4) The Government of the present for promising action to the reporters and the press, but will say or do nothing else until the next report comes out in 10 years time...
5) The Irish People for being aware of this exact situation long before this report was published, and not having the courage, passion or the balls to demand justice from the perpetrators, or severe financial penalties from the institution that allowed it.


OK Rant Over, mods feel free to lock the thread for flaming like you did with the last one I posted a few weeks ago when the issue didn't matter to anyone...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055711729

I'll post another one in 10 years good luck.

Well, with the exception of much derided "radicals" like Peadar O Donnell, there was a fairly strong "shut mouth catches no flies" consensus in Irish society which revolved around unquestioning support for the Catholic Church.

Latchy

Up against the all mighty powerful catholic church ? ...good gawd no

MrStuffins

Spacedog wrote: »

Are all irish people to blame for the abuse in the Catholic Church?

No

brian ireland

Yeah but, no but, yeah but, no!!!!!

phasers

No

bronte

No

thomond2006

/Awaits random user to say yes.

sold

NO

nlgbbbblth

Spacedog wrote: »

Those responsible are:

1) The individuals who perpetrated the abuse (many have escaped justice)

mike65 wrote: »

Only those who abused

There's your answer.

Want to blame someone?

Blame the abusers and no one else.

Might seem obvious but it's the right answer. Ever heard of personal responsibility?

drkpower

mike65 wrote: »

..... and those who knew or seriously suspected something but said nothing are to blame.
.

Sadly, this is the key and its why so many are to blame. The majority knew, possibly not the full extent, but they knew. For anyone of a certain age, we all remember the jokes that would be told about the dodgy christian brother at school - that didnt come from nothing; there was a widespread knowledge that 'something' was going on and the average Joe wasnt strong enough to make an issue of it.

partyatmygaff

If it was a teacher who was an abuser would you be asking the same question?

segaBOY

Is Spacedog to blame for global warming?

Awaits answers.

Nevyn

All that is needed for the forces of evil to succeed is for enough good men to remain silent.

partyatmygaff

Thaedydal wrote: »

All that is needed for the forces of evil to succeed is for enough good men to remain silent.

But when the good men do not know or are unsure they are absolved of blame and responsibility.

Lizzzard

a definate NO!!! How could this even be asked?????

Latchy

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

Blame the abusers and no one else.

Might seem obvious but it's the right answer. Ever heard of personal responsibility?

The vast majority of the general public know the difference betweeen right and wrong .Maybe with the abusers it's a form of collective amnesia ie, if we all think it's not wrong , it's not wrong

Prof.Badass

Well they don't bear full responsibility, but a very small amount yes.

Nevyn

Today's reports were not about the abuse it was about the cover up of abuse by the church.

They took out insurance, they knew it was happening, they covered it up, they didn't report the crimes, they got those crimes when reported swept under the carpet, the moved priests around and didn't defrock them and when it looked like it was going to become public, they took out insurance against claims against them.

They took out insurance.

Frankly a conspiracy on that level need many many 'good' people to make it work.

stovelid

Easy to say it now.

Ask somebody who is typically representative of my parent's generation - in their late 60s/early 70s and from a poor family that grew up in a small Irish rural community about how hard it must have been to challenge the church in your community.

Kudos for your bravery in fearlessly apportioning blame to the average person - decades later - from behind your computer though.

pathway33

All the irish people who knew what was going on are to blame for the abuse in the catholic church.

This includes all those non-priest people who locked up churches in parishes every evening and saw incidents of abuse but turned a blind eye.

It includes all those teachers who knew they had a dodgy priest on the staff and turned a blind eye to witnessed abuse.

It includes all the doctors and nurses in hospitals who knew there was a dodgy priest on the hospital staff and witnessed abuse but turned a blind eye.

And these are the people on joe duffy fighting for pensioners rights. Shame on them all.

Nevyn

My grandmother challenged the church in her community, she and the other women of the parish boycotted the church on a few occasions until certain priests were removed, if she was till alive today she'd have been 89.

Doing the right thing, standing up for those who need you to is often not easy but that is when it is even more important to do so.

louisa200

what i dont understand is how can any organisation take out insurance against claims of physical and sexual abuse.. and if they did then the insurance company who allowed this cover has as much if not more responsibility than the average joe blogg catholic on the street..
how and ever, i do think the population of ireland who idolised the church without question in the last 30 or so years does have a responsibility too.. blind faith gets no one anywhere, and the power these people had could only have been got by the masocistical feelings of its flock.. no one should trust anyone with their children.. a lesson learned i hope x

drkpower

stovelid wrote: »

Kudos for your bravery in fearlessly apportioning blame to the average person - decades later - from behind your computer though.

I dont know about Thaedayal but I would blame myself, my parents, my relations, also. We all knew 'something' was up. I dont think the average Joe wanted to face the issue. We dont carry anywhere near the same culpability as the abusers and the conspirators but there is plenty of blame to go round on this one and we deserve some.

louisa200

and my partner (a 30 something irish catholic) has always maintained that they are all dirty bsatrds.. the question is how will the catholic church respond to this feeling... serious reform or nothing.. their donation plates will be down this week methinks x

stovelid

stovelid wrote: »

Easy to say it now.

Ask somebody who is typically representative of my parent's generation - in their late 60s/early 70s and from a poor family that grew up in a small Irish rural community about how hard it must have been to challenge the church in your community.

Kudos for your bravery in fearlessly apportioning blame to the average person - decades later - from behind your computer though.

So true, any descenting voices were soon silenced! The mass emigration at the time probably helped because those outspoken ones were more likely to leave than fight the "establishment".

edit: fair play to your gran Thaedayal.

irish_bob

the majority of irish people back in the day revered the church above all else , the priest was by far the most important man in the parish , parents took great pride in thier sons becoming altar boys , it was an all consuming culture of both worship ( of the clergy ) and denial that allowed such horrors to be perpetrated on the defenseless , that the police also turned a blind eyes show just how much immunity the men in frocks had

Latchy

stovelid wrote: »

Easy to say it now.

Ask somebody who is typically representative of my parent's generation - in their late 60s/early 70s and from a poor family that grew up in a small Irish rural community about how hard it must have been to challenge the church in your community.

My mother grew up in an Irish rural village similar to your parents and is of the same age group .
She said there was not a corner of family life that was not intruded on by the local church and priests .

Even having a normal boyfriend / girlfriend relationship sometimes had to be conducted in secrecy because they (priests ) showed an unhealthy intrest into who was seeing who , were , and when .

You might have thought something wasn't right or wrong but you said nowt

Speaking your own mind was unheard off ,specially with a priest present .

funk-you

Spacedog wrote: »

Are all irish people to blame for the abuse in the Catholic Church?

Yes, yes we are. Much in the same way all black people love fried chicken and all Romanians are swan eating thieves.

-Funk

My name is URL

One of the priests was a software developer in the 80's, one of the best in Ireland apparently

He designed a 'game' that groomed the kids, and persuaded them to take off their clothes and kiss him

One day, the mother of one of the children he'd abused arrived to collect her daughter and while standing outside the door heard her child say 'will I put my clothes back on now?'

Just heard that on the radio now...

The point is that if he was 'just' a developer he would have been convicted earlier, he was a priest as well though and as such got the protection that the church and Gardai provided

So no, everyone is not to blame. Only those that actively and knowingly hid the fact that abuse was happening are to blame, though that covers a lot of people

stovelid

funk-you wrote: »

Yes, yes we are. Much in the same way all black people love fried chicken and all Romanians are swan eating thieves.

I always doubted my own complicity until you put it like that, Funk.

Local-womanizer

How ridiculous trying to say the Irish public are to blame for the abuse.No excuses should be made whatsoever and everyone of them b@stards needs to be jailed. Just listening to the cases from the report on Prime time is making me sick.

Senna

My uncle was a Garda in Galway during the early 60's, he was young and very approachable. A few of the local mothers approached him about abuse of their children by a local priest. He took the allegations very serious and began to follow up on them. He was told by the superintendent to forget about it, but he didn't.
He was removed from the force and put into a physiatric hospital because he refused to say the allegations were false.

I'm not sure how long he spent in the hospital or what they done to him, but he has never been the same since because of the treatment he got. He now lives in a specialised home and isn't in the best of mental health (although he can function independently and spends the day outside in town).

The garda knew but brushed everything under the carpet, and i hope those ****ers are held responsible for the cover-up.

Darlughda

Every time this comes up I cannot stop the anger.

I look at all these churches built at times of horrendous poverty amongst people. This particular hegemony has proved itself to be well beyond any kind of remit of what spiritual guardians should be.

There are people I know, good people, who follow the Irish Catholic tradition, but both me and them are left with the question. How much did you really know? What could you have done?

Míshásta

All the Irish people weren't unthinking followers of the Church in the past. There has always been a substantial minority who apposed the heavy influence of the church in matters concerning the right to divorce and contraception etc. They were quite vocal in their criticism - if it was known that there was this widespread abuse and cover-ups you may be sure they would have spoken up about it.

I've been around for quite a bit, I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. People were not aware that this scandal was going on. It was very well concealed.

philologos

Not another thread....

And no, not all Irish people are to blame as not all Irish people knew about the abuse, and not all Irish people were Roman Catholics.

Spacedog

louisa200 wrote: »

what i dont understand is how can any organisation take out insurance against claims of physical and sexual abuse.. and if they did then the insurance company who allowed this cover has as much if not more responsibility than the average joe blogg catholic on the street..

Who do you think the "insurance company" is? FBD? Quinn Direct? The insurance company was and is the IRISH GOVERNMENT, it's YOU! it's YOUR TAXES!

"the insurance company who allowed this cover" = "the average joe blogg catholic on the street"

bronte

Senna wrote: »

My uncle was a Garda in Galway during the early 60's, he was young and very approachable. A few of the local mothers approached him about abuse of their children by a local priest. He took the allegations very serious and began to follow up on them. He was told by the superintendent to forget about it, but he didn't.
He was removed from the force and put into a physiatric hospital because he refused to say the allegations were false.

I'm not sure how long he spent in the hospital or what they done to him, but he has never been the same since because of the treatment he got. He now lives in a specialised home and isn't in the best of mental health (although he can function independently and spends the day outside in town).

The garda knew but brushed everything under the carpet, and i hope those ****ers are held responsible for the cover-up.

That's disturbing. How could they get away with this ? :mad:
Ireland has been ruled by the church for far too long.

drkpower

Local-womanizer wrote: »

How ridiculous trying to say the Irish public are to blame for the abuse.No excuses should be made whatsoever and everyone of them b@stards needs to be jailed. Just listening to the cases from the report on Prime time is making me sick.

Saying that the public generally are somehow at fault does not in any way alter the responsibility of the abuser or in any way provide an excuse for them. They should be punished as severely as is possible.

But to stop this type of thing from occurring again, we cant just lock up the current abusers. We need to look at how it was allowed to happen and how it took so long to stop. The Primetime sub-heading is very apt; the 'denial and the deceit':the abusers and facilitators were engaged in a criminal deceit - but the majority of the public were engaged in a wholesale denial.

Dudess

Spacedog wrote: »

Since when the government decided to limit the liability of the Church, long before the extent of the abuse was known, and that it is now known that the church knew the true extent of the abuse (and the projected financial liability) and covered up, then accepted the settlement of liability.

Seems to me that the Irish people were perfectly happy with this situation. We were and ARE all perfectly happy to foot the full bill of liability, through taxation, in a time of recession for crimes we did not commit, did not cover up, and had no control over what so ever.

Those responsible are:

1) The individuals who perpetrated the abuse (many have escaped justice)
2) The Catholic Church upper hierarchy from Archbishops upwards to the Pope in Dublin and in Rome who limited their liability through careful management and manipulation of law, political influence, and public relations.
3) The Public Services and past Government for turning their backs on these crimes and having faith in the Church to do the right thing at it's own expense, instead of following an ethical criminal process. (perhaps for fear of political unpopularity by a still largely faithful public.)
4) The Government of the present for promising action to the reporters and the press, but will say or do nothing else until the next report comes out in 10 years time...
5) The Irish People for being aware of this exact situation long before this report was published, and not having the courage, passion or the balls to demand justice from the perpetrators, or severe financial penalties from the institution that allowed it.

Jeez, why the irrepressible need for scapegoating at times like these?

OK Rant Over, mods feel free to lock the thread for flaming like you did with the last one I posted a few weeks ago when the issue didn't matter to anyone...

Tad disingenuous there, seeing as you posted it in the Christianity forum.

I also disagree with people who say "anyone who knew about it and turned a blind eye was to blame". If it were only that simple...

bleg

**** sake. Blaming the whole ****ing country? Seriously?

What next? The floods?

Stones85

My name is URL wrote: »

One of the priests was a software developer in the 80's, one of the best in Ireland apparently

He designed a 'game' that groomed the kids, and persuaded them to take off their clothes and kiss him

One day, the mother of one of the children he'd abused arrived to collect her daughter and while standing outside the door heard her child say 'will I put my clothes back on now?'

Just heard that on the radio now...

The point is that if he was 'just' a developer he would have been convicted earlier, he was a priest as well though and as such got the protection that the church and Gardai provided

So no, everyone is not to blame. Only those that actively and knowingly hid the fact that abuse was happening are to blame, though that covers a lot of people

As a father I have to say this........ if I was the parent in this situation; I'd be in jail for the events that would have followed and the parish would be minus a priest.

pathway33

My name is URL wrote: »

One of the priests was a software developer in the 80's, one of the best in Ireland apparently

He designed a 'game' that groomed the kids, and persuaded them to take off their clothes and kiss him

One day, the mother of one of the children he'd abused arrived to collect her daughter and while standing outside the door heard her child say 'will I put my clothes back on now?'

Just heard that on the radio now...

Yes it's on page 471 of the report. The report goes on from that to say (same page) 'The mother wrote a letter of complaint to the parish priest. The parish priest showed the letter to Fr Cicero (the software developer).
[...] Father Cicero put the letter in his pocket and the parish priest thought that was the end of the matter.'

(typing not in bold in the report)

I truly feel sick. Even when people did report things, nothing happened.

drkpower

bleg wrote: »

**** sake. Blaming the whole ****ing country? Seriously?

What next? The floods?

Yep; global warming - we are all to blame for that too....!
And the economy.
And Jedward.

Bob_Harris

Oh of course we're all responsible.

Just like somehow we're all responsible for the current state of the economy.

ddef

That has to be one of the most ignorant questions I have ever read on boards.
I am Irish, and no, I am not to blame for some sick minded freak abusing the trust he was given with this countries children.