Dublin Abuse Report

Plowman

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bleg

Any sign of the Pope or anybody from the vatican apologising, commenting let alone cooperating with the commission? Or is it business as usual for those at the top.


Whilst those at the top remain silent you people should really begin to question the church to which you belong and questiin whether you will continue to support the men at the top who remain silent. Withdraw your financial and spiritual support I say. Let them know you will not stand for inaction.

Manach

By "you people" I assume you mean Catholics like myself. To me the my Church is a part (albeit shrinkinking) of the community.
My support is a constant based on its truthful doctrine (a bit biased there) and good works in the locality.

Thoie

For those of you who don't want to read the entire report, I would encourage you to read Part 1 (http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Part%201.pdf/Files/Part%201.pdf), or at least up to the end of page 28.

This section covers areas such as internal communications, the roles of various people and offices, and what I consider to be fair, unbiased opinions on how matters were handled. It does not contain any descriptions of specific abuses - those are covered in Part 2, though not in a lurid way.

In general, Part 2 concerns itself more with timelines and interviews, though details are included where necessary. A typical format of the chapters in Part 2 is (with a lot more information):

1950 - Fr X appointed as parish priest to Y
1955 - allegation made that Fr X {did something}
1960 - meeting held between Bishop Z and Someone Else
1975 - Another incident
1980 - Psychologist's report

It is not pleasant reading, nor is it easy reading, but I think it's important for everyone to read it and to understand the implications. In my opinion the population of Ireland spent an awful long time with their heads in the sand, and we owe it to all involved not to continue that tradition.

oceanclub

Plowman wrote: »

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My wife - herself a Catholic - has said St Theresa's church on Clarendon St distributes itself. Is it just a coincidence that the only church she goes to does this?

P.

Ultravid

I found this article whilst ferreting around on the internet. It's pretty good. Stay with it: it may not seem entirely relevant to this thread but it is.

http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3580&Itemid=48

Ultravid

oceanclub wrote: »

My wife - herself a Catholic - has said St Theresa's church on Clarendon St distributes itself. Is it just a coincidence that the only church she goes to does this?

P.

The two local churches I go to don't in any way support it. The paper is tolerated at the back of the church for a few days. It is never endorsed from the pulpit.

condra

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I felt like crying reading The Irish Times coverage of the report yesterday, it was just such horrific reading. These men weren't just paedophiles, they were sadists. One priest, a Father Noel Reynolds I believe, violated a girl with a crucifix in more than one area of her body.

Indeed.

independent.ie wrote:

The commission found that but for the complaints to gardai, the "archdiocese would have been happy to ignore the fact that any abuse had taken place".

During garda interviews, Reynolds admitted inserting a crucifix into a girl's back passage and vagina and offered the crucifix as evidence.

Utterly depraved.

magicface

Is there anywhere I can actually get a hard back copy of the report?

oceanclub

Ultravid wrote: »

The two local churches I go to don't in any way support it. The paper is tolerated at the back of the church for a few days. It is never endorsed from the pulpit.

Oh good - which churches are these? Let me know the names. I'm sure they'll tolerate my pamplet on freedom of choice too, if they don't mind stocking literature they disagree with.

P.

Thoie

magicface wrote: »

Is there anywhere I can actually get a hard back copy of the report?

You could try:

Government Publications
Postal Trade Section
4 - 5 Harcourt Road
Dublin 2
Ireland

Tel: + 353 1 647 6000
Fax: + 353 1 475 2760

Though I'm not sure they do hardback copies - they'll most likely have softcovers at least.

Thoie

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I felt like crying reading The Irish Times coverage of the report yesterday, it was just such horrific reading.

<details>

The church hierarchy absolutely infuriates me also. Not only did they show a shocking and disgraceful disregard for children and families that trusted them, but they also showed absolute contempt towards the faith of so many of their followers.

condra wrote: »

Utterly depraved.

Newspapers exist to make money. The "worst" stories sell more papers. This is why the tabloid headlines are laughed at by so many people (despite the potential seriousness of what they're reporting). Papers like the IT and the Indo are competing with the tabloids for sales, and will use similar shock tactics.

I think people are missing the point of the report. The point is not that there are depraved acts out there, the point is that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in Ireland knew, and did nothing. The point is that the State agencies involved (notably the Health Boards, Gardai and DPP) at best did nothing, at worst deliberately colluded in the cover up.

People are concentrating on the sensationalism of the acts themselves and seem to be ignoring the rest of the message. If you are of the Catholic faith, living in Ireland, then what are you doing to ensure that the people who purportedly represent you are doing their best to protect the children (and adults) who are trusted to their care? Have you read the Framework Document (Church Guidelines on Child Sexual Abuse), and are you happy with the scope and actions recommended in there? Have you raised the question with your parish priest/spiritual advisor, and are you satisfied that they are familiar with the procedures outlined in that document, and that they will properly and promptly report any concerns?

Bad people do bad things. Yes, some of the acts perpetrated were shocking, but do you not find the following things shocking:

• the church's practise of "hoping things would go away",
• offering cash incentives to victims to keep them quiet,
• the acts of "mental reservation" (lying, to the rest of us),
• offers from the church to absolve victims of guilt (without addressing the cause, and the implication that the victim had done something wrong),
• the withholding of crucial information from psychologists (whose reports were used to determine if a priest was suitable for a particular position) and
• placing known abusers back in the community through carelessness or as a deliberate action to protect the good name of the church

magicface

Thoie wrote: »

You could try:

Government Publications
Postal Trade Section
4 - 5 Harcourt Road
Dublin 2
Ireland

Tel: + 353 1 647 6000
Fax: + 353 1 475 2760

Though I'm not sure they do hardback copies - they'll most likely have softcovers at least.

Thanks very much will pop in tomorrow to see.

Thoie

magicface wrote: »

Thanks very much will pop in tomorrow to see.

That address is only for mail order - if you're going to pop in try:

Government Publications
Sales Office
Molesworth Street
Dublin 2
Ireland

Morbert

Ultravid wrote: »

I suggest you read a book such as Mere Christianity, by CS Lewis. Not a Catholic author, but very Catholic in his thought and writings.

I own a copy. I found the second half to be very good (he gets a few things wrong in the beginning). I'll have a flick through again, though I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for.

Ultravid

Morbert wrote: »

I own a copy. I found the second half to be very good (he gets a few things wrong in the beginning). I'll have a flick through again, though I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for.

Just the problem of evil and what-not, I think he addresses it quite well. His other book, The Problem of Pain, is good too.

Incidentally, what did you find wrong in the beginning? Drop me a PM, I'm curious.

Plowman

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wolfsbane

I have been listening to many responses to the report - and previous reports. I'm not a Catholic or an Irish citizen, so my sense of horror will be less than those of you who have been part of the Church and State which facilitated such things. But let me say I appreciate how great a sense of betrayal you must feel.

I have been greatly moved by the testimonies of the victims, and by the courage of those who spoke out for them. Father Tom Doyle has championed their cause for a long time (news on him here: http://www.votfnj.org/page.cfm?Web_ID=70.

This week I listened to Father Patrick McCafferty, who had himself been abused by priests, as he slated the leaders of the RCC. The paedophile scandal, if I paraphrase him rightly, is not a matter of a few bad apples but is a matter of institutional corruption for the RCC. He called for a radical reformation of the Church. My heart when out to him, as I recognised the echoes of Luther as he nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg. Luther too had hoped for reformation within the Church, but history has shown that is very unlikely.

To all you good Catholics out there, and those of you who have abandoned the idea of Christianity in light of this scandal: please reflect on the nature of the true Church as revealed in the Bible. Christ does not tolerate persistent sin in the churches - Revelation 2 & 3 tells us He removes such churches, yet the Church remains. Many have made the mistake of identifying the Roman Catholic Church as the true Church, and so Christianity has been identified with all the pomp, power, sin and abuse that have been institutional in that church for well over a thousand years.

The true Church is made up of all those who love Jesus Christ and trust in Him for their salvation. They are found within many churches/denominations and are proof of the Saviour's promise, Where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

PDN

Thoie wrote: »

Newspapers exist to make money. The "worst" stories sell more papers. This is why the tabloid headlines are laughed at by so many people (despite the potential seriousness of what they're reporting). Papers like the IT and the Indo are competing with the tabloids for sales, and will use similar shock tactics.

I think people are missing the point of the report. The point is not that there are depraved acts out there, the point is that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in Ireland knew, and did nothing. The point is that the State agencies involved (notably the Health Boards, Gardai and DPP) at best did nothing, at worst deliberately colluded in the cover up.

I think you can probably add the media to that list. They too were complicit in supporting the status quo. Are we supposed to believe that no abuse victim ever tried to get the media to publicise their plight for 50 years or more?

Thoie

PDN wrote: »

I think you can probably add the media to that list. They too were complicit in supporting the status quo. Are we supposed to believe that no abuse victim ever tried to get the media to publicise their plight for 50 years or more?

Indeed, though reading through the report you have to realise that a lot (not all, by any means) of the victims were, themselves, eager to avoid scandal or public attention. It's not until you get to the late 80s/early 90s that people started threatening to go to the papers, which seems to be what precipitated some of the events of the early to mid-90s.

You must remember that before the 90s a lot of things just simply weren't spoken about. The Rape Crisis Center, for example, had only 76 reports in its first year (1979), and really only became "visible" in the early 90s. Many of the events examined took place in an Ireland where condoms were only available to married people with a doctor's prescription (or even before that), where unmarried mothers were considered to have a psychiatric disorder and were hidden away and where any adult had the "right" to inflict corporal punishment on any child that happened to behave unacceptably in their company.

Many of the abuses spoken about took place in the 60s, but weren't reported to anyone until 20-odd years later. People didn't even tell their own families/spouses, let alone a journalist.

Ultravid

wolfsbane wrote: »

To all you good Catholics out there, and those of you who have abandoned the idea of Christianity in light of this scandal: please reflect on the nature of the true Church as revealed in the Bible. Christ does not tolerate persistent sin in the churches - Revelation 2 & 3 tells us He removes such churches, yet the Church remains. Many have made the mistake of identifying the Roman Catholic Church as the true Church, and so Christianity has been identified with all the pomp, power, sin and abuse that have been institutional in that church for well over a thousand years.

The true Church is made up of all those who love Jesus Christ and trust in Him for their salvation. They are found within many churches/denominations and are proof of the Saviour's promise, Where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

The true Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The true Church has these four marks. Look for these marks. That's all I'll say about that. If you want more apologetics for the Catholic faith: www.catholic.com

Protestantism represents a great rejection of Divine Grace and all who do this are in grave danger of losing their souls: and Catholics are at risk of this too by not living and practising their faith, in doing all that Christ commanded us to believe and to do.

The second thing I want to say is this: groups like VOTF and Call to Action seem to offer a positive agenda, but usually become progressivist, dissenting groups which wind up calling for blessing of homosexual unions, married priests, 'women' priests, contraception etc... We therefore, as Catholics, must be very wary of such groups and discern carefully if what they propose is in accordance with Catholic teaching.

Thirdly, the corruption in the priesthood has much of its roots in the corruption and immorality of the seminaries. I've been harping on about this book before: read Goodbye, Good Men by Michael S. Rose, to see how liberals brought corruption into the Catholic Church. As an example, we see the mis-use of psychology which wreaked havoc in the priesthood and religious life. Orthodox candidates were turned away and made feel uncomfortable, while deviant individuals were welcomed in as seminarians. Many of the most corrupt individuals held key positions. The book is sickening to read but is acknowledged as being an accurate account of what has been happening in the seminaries in America.

An example of mis-use of psychology, and bad psychology at that, follows, of one Dr Coulson, who with his colleagues, went into religious orders in America armed with new fangled techniques with disastrous results:

"WE OVERCAME THEIR TRADITIONS, WE OVERCAME THEIR FAITH"

A contrite Catholic psychologist's disturbing testimony about
his central role in the destruction of religious orders.

Dr. William Coulson was a disciple of the influential American
psychologist Carl Rogers, and for many years a co-practitioner
of the latter's "nondirective" therapy.

COULSON: This is Sister Mary Benjamin, IHM. Sister Mary Benjamin got
involved with us in the summer of '66, and became the victim of a
lesbian seduction. An older nun in the group, "freeing herself to be more
expressive of who she really was internally," decided that she wanted to
make love with Sister Mary Benjamin. Well, Sister Mary Benjamin engaged in
this; and then she was stricken with guilt, and wondered, to quote from
her book, "Was I doing something wrong, was I doing something terrible? I
talked to a priest--"

Unfortunately, we had talked to him first. "I talked to a priest," she
says, "who refused to pass judgment on my actions. He said it was up to me
to decide if they were right or wrong. He opened a door, and I walked
through the door, realizing I was on my own."

More here:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PRIESTS/COULSON.TXT

Liberals hate the Catholic priesthood. They sought to position themselves within the seminaries. They were the ones who decided who went on to become priests. They controlled what was taught in the seminaries. They suppressed sound Catholic theology and morality. They corrupted the priesthood. They destroyed vocations. They made the priesthood a virtual laughing stock. Then the cry, ''Oh look. No vocations. Let's have married priests, women priests etc...'' This is what has been happening to our Church for these last forty years. It is a plot form the pit of hell, and sadly it has been all too effective.

This report refers to the crisis in the USA though I'm sure parallels can be drawn in Ireland.

GENEVA, September 29, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The sexual abuse crisis in the Catholic Church in the US and abroad was a matter of homosexuals preying on adolescent boys, not one of pedophilia, said the Vatican's representative at the UN in Geneva, Switzerland. It is "more correct," said Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, to speak of ephebophilia, a homosexual attraction to adolescent males, than pedophilia, in relation to the scandals.

"Of all priests involved in the abuses, 80 to 90 per cent belong to this sexual orientation minority which is sexually engaged with adolescent boys between the ages of 11 and 17," said Tomasi. His statement is backed up by a report commissioned by the US bishops that found that in the overwhelming majority of cases the clergy involved were homosexuals, with 81 percent of victims being adolescent males.

Link to full article here:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/sep/09092910.html

No doubt this post will receive complaints, but the truth is screaming out to be told. Anyone who is interested in the truth will examine this material carefully. It is not made up, it is only the facts of the matter concerning the abuse crisis in America. I strongly suspect the same factors played their part in Ireland.

oceanclub

Liberals hate the Catholic priesthood. They sought to position themselves within the seminaries

I'm sorry, but the idea that people became priests because they hate the priesthood, so decided to devote their entire lives to destroying it from within, is conspiracy theory insanity.

P.

Ultravid

oceanclub wrote: »

I'm sorry, but the idea that people became priests because they hate the priesthood, so decided to devote their entire lives to destroying it from within, is conspiracy theory insanity.

P.

Examine the evidence I've offered in support of my claim, rather than dismissing it as a conspiracy theory. Of course, it would be easier to dismiss it than to actually put in the effort to examine the material on offer and make some comment on what one has learned.

The information I've provided on abuse in the US Church is there in black and white, concerning the nature of the sexual abuse and the causes for it. Like I said, it's all in that book I mentioned. It's a good start for anyone who is genuinely interested in the truth rather than the easier option of catholic bashing. This is the work of the enemy who has savagely attacked the catholic priesthood and sought with some success to corrupt it and inflict horrific attacks on the innocent, thus undermining that same priesthood and the entire Church.

Just again I mention one fact: I love the Catholic Church, believing it to be the true Church of Jesus Christ and it behoves me to mention the truth about what has happened which the popular media dare not speak of.

Ultravid

oceanclub wrote: »

I'm sorry, but the idea that people became priests because they hate the priesthood, so decided to devote their entire lives to destroying it from within, is conspiracy theory insanity.

P.

Additionally, you've obviously not met the radical feminist nuns which are an absolute disgrace, nor the many openly dissenting priests (one famous example I know of appears regularly on Irish television), nuns, and bishops*, some of whom even espouse homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle 'choice'. Some individuals are misguided and malevolent enough to aspire to priesthood and religious life in order to 'change' the Church. I know for a fact that this is still happening in this country.

*E.g. Bishop Gumbleton in the USA:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17405

oceanclub

Ultravid wrote: »

Additionally, you've obviously not met the radical feminist nuns which are an absolute disgrace, nor the many openly dissenting priests (one famous example I know of appears regularly on Irish television), nuns, and bishops, some of whom even espouse homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle 'choice'.

Er, yes I have, but I'm guessing they joined the priesthood/sisterhood because they sincerely feel they are Catholic and now want to change the rules. Not because they are "liberals", faking pretending to be priest/nuns and want to destroy the Catholic church.

By the way you know the difference between paedophila and homosexuality either. I'm just guessing that a large reason that so many young boys were abused is that - guess what - priests/Christian brothers had more access to young boys than to young girls?

But your attempt to tar all gay people as paedophiles is duly noted.

P.

Ultravid

oceanclub wrote: »

Er, yes I have, but I'm guessing they joined the priesthood/sisterhood because they sincerely feel they are Catholic and now want to change the rules. Not because they are "liberals", faking pretending to be priest/nuns and want to destroy the Catholic church.

By the way you know the difference between paedophila and homosexuality either. I'm just guessing that a large reason that so many young boys were abused is that - guess what - priests/Christian brothers had more access to young boys than to young girls?

P.

I did not say they were faking. I said they wormed their way in to try to change the priesthood. They gained control of seminaries. They selected the types of men who would be priests. Of course, this is not a purely human scheme, it is of course satanic. Like I said before, satan works through human agencies mostly. Of course, if you're not catholic, feel free to dismiss this as fairy tales.

Look at the age profile of the vast majority (81% adolescent males) of those who were abused in the USA, by homosexual predators. Did you even read the article from LifeSiteNews?

But your attempt to tar all gay people as paedophiles is duly noted.

I don't tar anyone. I present facts. You can come to your own conclusion. If the abuse was predominantly homosexual in nature, as it was in the USA, why not come out and say as much?

oceanclub

So just to be clear on this. Your theory on the Catholic abuse scandal is that it was caused by homosexuals - not paedophiles - who are actually liberals intent on infiltrating the Catholic Church to destroy it from within. These undercover operatives joined it for life and commited abuse on children for that reason.

Do I have this theory correct?

Are there any other Catholic out there in this forum who support UltraVid's theory?

P.

Ultravid

oceanclub wrote: »

So just to be clear on this. Your theory on the Catholic abuse scandal is that it was caused by homosexuals - not paedophiles - who are actually liberals intent on infiltrating the Catholic Church to destroy it from within. These undercover operatives joined it for life and commited abuse on children for that reason.

Do I have this theory correct?

Are there any other Catholic out there in this forum who support UltraVid's theory?

P.

Nice attempt to ridicule me. But I've presented an article which simply presents facts about the situation in America. Why are you unable to read the article and comment on the facts presented therein? Are you afraid?

A link, again, to the article:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/sep/09092910.html

Thoie

Ultravid wrote: »

Liberals hate the Catholic priesthood. They sought to position themselves within the seminaries. They were the ones who decided who went on to become priests. They controlled what was taught in the seminaries. They suppressed sound Catholic theology and morality. They corrupted the priesthood. They destroyed vocations.... It is a plot form the pit of hell, and sadly it has been all too effective.

Ultravid wrote: »

I did not say they were faking. I said they wormed their way in to try to change the priesthood. They gained control of seminaries. They selected the types of men who would be priests. Of course, this is not a purely human scheme, it is of course satanic.

Ultravid wrote: »

Nice attempt to ridicule me. But I've presented an article which simply presents facts about the situation in America. Why are you unable to read the article and comment on the facts presented therein? Are you afraid?

A link, again, to the article:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/sep/09092910.html

Having read that article it appears that Tomasi is very much trying to deflect attention away from the Catholic Church's role in covering up scandals, while at the same time flinging around accusations that "things are worse in other churches" and "they're all gay anyway". This sounds remarkably like the line taken by the Irish clergy for the last 50+ years.

As you didn't agree with oceanclub's summary, is mine any more correct?

The satanic liberals who hate Catholicism so much that they will dedicate their lives to learning and preaching its teachings are the same ones who are also infiltrating other churches and faiths such as Protestanism, who are apparently already damned for rejecting Divine Grace?

Ultravid

Thoie wrote: »

Having read that article it appears that Tomasi is very much trying to deflect attention away from the Catholic Church's role in covering up scandals, while at the same time flinging around accusations that "things are worse in other churches" and "they're all gay anyway". This sounds remarkably like the line taken by the Irish clergy for the last 50+ years.

Trouble is, dissenting, liberal priests don't preach catholic doctrine. They preach heresy and their own personal preferences.

Did it ever occur to you that just maybe, some of the individuals who covered up may themselves have been compromised? It's just a thought. There are cases of bishops, in America, being implicated in abuse scandals directly, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch that they may have watched each other's backs. This was the case in a couple examples in the USA that I am aware of. At the end of the day, this is about sexual deviancy and acting out on vulnerable young people. A normal healthy man does not do this, therefore we must look at the kinds of men who were made priests.

Like I say, it's best you read the book, Goodbye, Good Men: it does a better job at explaining how all this came about and I can't do any justice to it myself. It will give you insights into the situation.

I found an article which talks about, among other things:

The role of bishops

As the accusations of the guilt or complicity of the U.S. Catholic hierarchy continues to grow, attention is focusing upon some of the most powerful bishops in America – both living and dead.

More here:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26940

And lookit, the Church has already issued instructions on admitting those with same-sex attractions to priesthood, or not admitting them, as the instruction goes. It would be foolish to pretend that at the heart of this problem is allowing inappropriate candidates to become priests.

I'm sick to death of this discussion now. I'm gonna leave it at that.

kelly1

Ultravid wrote: »

Thirdly, the corruption in the priesthood has much of its roots in the corruption and immorality of the seminaries. I've been harping on about this book before: read Goodbye, Good Men by Michael S. Rose, to see how liberals brought corruption into the Catholic Church. As an example, we see the mis-use of psychology which wreaked havoc in the priesthood and religious life. Orthodox candidates were turned away and made feel uncomfortable, while deviant individuals were welcomed in as seminarians. Many of the most corrupt individuals held key positions. The book is sickening to read but is acknowledged as being an accurate account of what has been happening in the seminaries in America.

Hello Ultravid, do you think the same happened in Ireland?

Obviously something wen't very wrong here!

Ultravid

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello Ultravid, do you think the same happened in Ireland?

Obviously something wen't very wrong here!

Firstly, I must make this point: we have many good priests, religious, and bishops. Now one saint asked a funny question, I can't remember who, but it was, ''Can bishops get to heaven?'' Funny yes, but also containing truth: bishops have a tough time, most especially from Satan, and so we needn't be too surprised when they make shockingly bad decisions and judgements. Were the catholic people praying for their priests and bishops all these years? If not, why not? Just some things to think about. There is an old saying, we get the priests we deserve. I think there is some truth in that.

Kelly: I'd hazard a guess and say yes. Unfortunately, I imagine many sexually broken men joined the priesthood. I don't think many of them would have done that thinking, ''I know, I want to abuse young people. I shall become a priest.'' Rather, I think it was a case of young men, sexually broken, who became priests - the priesthood became a refuge for them. Faced with the temptations they did, and lacking a sound formation in the seminary and suitable selection which would have identified them, they succumbed to temptations which were all around them. Sin has a nasty habit of darkening the intellect and hardening the will, disorder begets disorder, and this is why we see men commit the most heinous crimes, and some of them appeared not to have remorse. Further still , a really bad model of Church management saw these things being covered up to protect Catholic Church Inc., rather than protecting the little flock which belonged to Christ. Shepherds became managers, and protecting the corporate image became the most important thing. Finally, clericalism* of the worst kind prevailed in Ireland, where priests often became Lords, instead of servants.

The experiences in the seminary would have exasperated the problems: bad theology, sexual licence, open dissent especially on issues of sexual morality etc...

I take heart, that no matter how bad things may become, no matter how dark it gets, we know God wins in the end. I think even out of this great evil and destruction, God can bring good. We will have a stronger, purer, holier Church once this mess is cleared up. How do we help clear the mess up? We become the best Catholics we can be with God's Grace. We become part of the solution. We become saints.

"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom”. – Luke 12:32

* http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3580&Itemid=48

oceanclub

Ultravid wrote: »

Nice attempt to ridicule me. But I've presented an article which simply presents facts about the situation in America. Why are you unable to read the article and comment on the facts presented therein? Are you afraid?

Why are you unable to summarize your argument? Because you're afraid that, when boiled down to a few sentences, it does make you look like a loon?

P.

PDN

The idea that the child abuse scandal is caused by homosexuality is as nonsensical as blaming celibacy.

Paedophiles act as they do because they enjoy exploiting those who are powerless - it is not because of of sexual orientation, nor is it because they 'aren't getting enough'.

Zombrex

Ultravid wrote: »

It would be foolish to pretend that at the heart of this problem is allowing inappropriate candidates to become priests.

I don't think anyone is debating that. Obviously inappropriate people were being selected for the priesthood since priests work with children and child abusers are inappropriate for such a task.

What is being debated is this idea being presented by some in the Church, such as the author of that book (which for the life of me I can't find a positive review of on the internet) that this is because liberal society has encroached on the Church and allowed the Church to become riddled with homosexuals, as if liberal idealists and homosexuals think abusing under-aged children (post-puberty or not) is perfectly fine.

The evidence from the reports in Ireland paint a some what different picture, that this was allowed in order to save the Church from scandal and expensive law suits. And it might be a generalization but it tends to be the more conservative elements in any organisation who are pre-occupied with positive perception and not rocking the boat.

These types of white washes are just more examples of the Church refusing to take a proper look at itself and question the ideals that lead to many feeling that protecting the image of the Church was more important than truth.

oceanclub

PDN wrote: »

The idea that the child abuse scandal is caused by homosexuality is as nonsensical as blaming celibacy.

Paedophiles act as they do because they enjoy exploiting those who are powerless - it is not because of of sexual orientation, nor is it because they 'aren't getting enough'.

Ultravid still steadfastly ignores the fact that one of the main reasons behind the higher rate of abuse of male children by Christian Brothers and priests is that it was far more likely for them to gain access to boys than to girls. This has absolutely nothing to do with a higher rate of paedophilia anong homosexuals, unless you're a bigot with an axe to grind.

P.

Ultravid

oceanclub wrote: »

Why are you unable to summarize your argument? Because you're afraid that, when boiled down to a few sentences, it does make you look like a loon?

P.

oceanclub wrote: »

Ultravid still steadfastly ignores the fact that one of the main reasons behind the higher rate of abuse of male children by Christian Brothers and priests is that it was far more likely for them to gain access to boys than to girls. This has absolutely nothing to do with a higher rate of paedophilia anong homosexuals, unless you're a bigot with an axe to grind.

P.

I've not seen the breakdown of victims for this latest report, but clearly in the USA the victims were like 81% aged 11-17. My argument is that this abuse was not paedophilia, but rather ephebophilia, just like the article claimed, which is really a homosexual problem. I've no axe to grind, I just like to get to the truth of the matter.

Additionally, this is not just some isolated theory promulgated by a few nutty books. It's widely accepted as the fact of the matter, at least in the situation in America. Another book which addresses this is, The New Anti-Catholicism ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Anti-Catholicism-Last-Acceptable-Prejudice/dp/0195154800 ) RThe other book is here: ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Goodbye-Good-Men-Liberals-Corruption/dp/0895261448/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259582111&sr=1-1 )

Michael S. Rose has defended his books against the critics and the details are here:

MICHAEL ROSE RESPONDS TO CRITICS OF 'GOODBYE GOOD MEN'
Defends accuracy and says critics did not do their homework
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2002/dec/02121806.html

I'm not so much bothered about looking like a loon. Some people like to deny facts - all I do is present them. I'll let the clever ones among you make up your own minds.

getz

oceanclub wrote: »

Ultravid still steadfastly ignores the fact that one of the main reasons behind the higher rate of abuse of male children by Christian Brothers and priests is that it was far more likely for them to gain access to boys than to girls. This has absolutely nothing to do with a higher rate of paedophilia anong homosexuals, unless you're a bigot with an axe to grind.

P.

if you put anyone into a unnatural life ,you cannot complain when things go wrong,the abuse of children by the church of rome has been excepted[and even encouraged] for a thousand years ,it was even a excepted part of the religion to castrate young boys in the name of god,i know paedophiles are in all religious groups,but i am sure because of the way the priesthood lives the temptations /and cover ups [proved] are more likely to happen,

oceanclub

Ultravid wrote: »

I've not seen the breakdown of victims for this latest report, but clearly in the USA the victims were like 81% aged 11-17. .

You're going around in circles. I already mentioned there is a good reason for the above fact. You then mention the fact again.

And yes, you've read a book. Well done. Have a biscuit.

P.

lightening

Ultravid wrote: »

I'm not so much bothered about looking like a loon

Good, cause you are doing an excellent job looking like a loon. The more you say the more people see what's wrong with the church and how people like you just feed the rot.

PDN

lightening wrote: »

Good, cause you are doing an excellent job looking like a loon. The more you say the more people see what's wrong with the church and how people like you just feed the rot.

Come on guys. If you can't post here without insulting each other then don't bother posting at all.

Ultravid

getz wrote: »

if you put anyone into a unnatural life ,you cannot complain when things go wrong,the abuse of children by the church of rome has been excepted[and even encouraged] for a thousand years ,it was even a excepted part of the religion to castrate young boys in the name of god,i know paedophiles are in all religious groups,but i am sure because of the way the priesthood lives the temptations /and cover ups [proved] are more likely to happen,

This unnatural life you speak of, was praised by the Lord Himself. The life of celibacy in service of the Kingdom.It is great pity unsuitable individuals signed up to it due to their lack of discernment, and of course failings among those who approved them.

Can you provide proof that the Church officially sanctioned the sexual abuse of minors?

This is interesting:

What about the Catholic castration of choir boys in the middle ages?

I got an email that said:

You basically covered everything and all scandals except for one. In 1599, Pope Clement VIII gave the ok for castrated young boy's to sing in the Church. This went on for the next 280 years or so until Pope Leo in 1878 finally stopped it. Two hundred and eighty years of castrating young boy's with the Pope and the Church giving approval for this barbaric procedure so the Church could have high pitched singers because women were not allowed to sing in the Church. The boy's were called the castrati and the Church sanctioned it. How on God's good earth could an institution who say's that it comes from God condone the mutilation of young boy's and let it go for so many years and so many pope's not doing anything about it and even approving it is beyond me.

Yup, there were some bad popes. One thing to note is that none of the popes from 1599-1878 have been canonized as Saints. (although 2 have been declared Blessed - Pious IX and Innocent XI ) Out of 26 Popes during that time period only 2 are even being considered for canonization. That indicates that the Catholic Church is not too impressed with its Popes during that time frame.

Full article:
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/castration_catholic_church.htm

oceanclub wrote: »

You're going around in circles. I already mentioned there is a good reason for the above fact. You then mention the fact again.

And yes, you've read a book. Well done. Have a biscuit.

P.

And you haven't read the book therefore you can't comment on nor dismiss the arguments contained therein.

oceanclub

Ultravid wrote: »

And you haven't read the book therefore you can't comment on nor dismiss the arguments contained therein.

What a unique way to win an Internet argument. Rather than attempt to produce or summarize your own argument, demand the other person read a book. If they don't, exclaim "I WIN".

Have another biscuit.

P.

getz

150 dublin priests implicated in molesting or raping boys and girls since 1940, one priest admitted sexualy abusing over 100 children,while another acepted that he had abused on a fortnightly basis for over 25 years,many others have and will never be found out,

lightening

PDN wrote: »

Come on guys. If you can't post here without insulting each other then don't bother posting at all.

OK, sorry... I'm just cringing for you. I know you can't help who represents you and the catholic church on the forum, but seriously, this thread is just so damaging it's unbelievable. Ultravid is just digging the grave a bit deeper.

PDN

lightening wrote: »

OK, sorry... I'm just cringing for you. I know you can't help who represents you and the catholic church on the forum, but seriously, this thread is just so damaging it's unbelievable. Ultravid is just digging the grave a bit deeper.

I'm not a Catholic, so Ultravid doesn't represent me at all.

lightening

Sorry, I just presumed you were. Probably a good thing being a mod on this forum!!

getz

life of celibacy in the name of the kingdom,no thats a later add on,early writings of the church suggest that all the oposles were married,except st john,indeed for the first thousand years catholic priests could marry or have consorts,by the way remember all the opostles still practiced the laws of moses,

kelly1

getz wrote: »

life of celibacy in the name of the kingdom,no thats a later add on,early writings of the church suggest that all the oposles were married,except st john,indeed for the first thousand years catholic priests could marry or have consorts,by the way remember all the opostles still practiced the laws of moses,

Are you forgetting about St. Paul who was celibate and advocated celibacy? I don't thing celibacy is the issue anyway. I reckon anyone who gets involved in paedophilia was probably abused themselves as a child or got addicted to hardcore porn and started to live our their fantasies.

oceanclub

kelly1 wrote: »

Are you forgetting about St. Paul who was celibate and advocated celibacy? I don't thing celibacy is the issue anyway. I reckon anyone who gets involved in paedophilia was probably abused themselves as a child or got addicted to hardcore porn and started to live our their fantasies.

I wonder why it's called Christianity, when it really should be called Paulianity.

(Matthew 19:3-12 is quoted by those who think Jesus approved of celibacy. Somehow they ignore the fact that he thought that divorce was OK if unfaithfulness was the reason.)

I wonder how priests in 1930s rural Ireland acquired hardcore porn.

P.