League tables published

peanuthead

in yesterdays independent

Can anyone provide me with a link to these online as I need a copy of them,

thanks!!

ytareh

Nasty,nasty things...any ethical teacher wouldnt have anything to do with them ...scourge/ruination of the UK system .
Shocking news just in "Institute of Ed ,Leeson St. sends more students to Trinity than Ballymun Community School "...
The blindingly obvious fallout of these is that the weaker kids who struggle to pass get left behind in favour of the A/B students.

peanuthead

ytareh wrote: »

Nasty,nasty things...any ethical teacher wouldnt have anything to do with them ...scourge/ruination of the UK system .
Shocking news just in "Institute of Ed ,Leeson St. sends more students to Trinity than Ballymun Community School "...
The blindingly obvious fallout of these is that the weaker kids who struggle to pass get left behind in favour of the A/B students.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Its very easy for a school to come top of a league table when they refuse to provide reasonable accomodations for struggling/SEN students therefore keeping their 'status'

However, the reason I wanted them was that I am doing a report on them, basically questioning what the table would look like if it were based on personal/social development and an actual percentage improvement in knowledge and emotional intelligence.

Not doing the whole table mind you, just a small portion.

But anyway, I got a copy.

smcgiff

All well and noble lads, but as the dad of a very bright (takes after her mum) 12 year old, the league tables for my local area tied in nicely with the schools we are interested in.

Trust me, ye will do the same once ye are in the same position, and not just thinking as educators.

ytareh

Fair enough SMG but you dont need these tables to tell a good school...a drive past at opening or closing is normally more than enough or even just seeing the way the kids 'conduct' themselves walking to and from the school...

peanuthead

And SMG another thing, if you were to have a special needs child you would be singing a different tune.

My problem is not with the public sending their children to the schools that can offer them the best opportunities, my problem is with the schools choosing those children (especially when outside their catchment areas) over children who may not be able to perform just as well. Its just not fair, and the media really don't help by publishing these tables.

What is the need for them? As inferred above, I'm sure the league tables had no weight over what school you are choosing for your daughter, you already knew and that's fine. I suppose the point I'm making is that those tables serve no positive purpose. They don't tell us anything that we didn't already know.

smcgiff

ytareh wrote: »

Fair enough SMG but you dont need these tables to tell a good school...a drive past at opening or closing is normally more than enough or even just seeing the way the kids 'conduct' themselves walking to and from the school...

Absolutely agree with you with the need to go to open days, but as to making a crucial decision on the basis of looking at a selection of kids conducting themselves!!! The mind boggles.

'League' Tables are also a useful tool - not ideal, but every piece of information should be used.

smcgiff

peanuthead wrote: »

And SMG another thing, if you were to have a special needs child you would be singing a different tune.

Why would I? I'd be looking to find the best school for my child. I would not wish for parents of children without special needs not to find the best school for their child. Do you?

peanuthead wrote: »

My problem is not with the public sending their children to the schools that can offer them the best opportunities, my problem is with the schools choosing those children (especially when outside their catchment areas) over children who may not be able to perform just as well. Its just not fair, and the media really don't help by publishing these tables.

Some schools undoubtedly do this, but did they do this before league tables? Of course they did. However in some regions it is not up to the school to choose apart from prioritising children of past pupils etc, it is down to a lottery. It's up to the parents to decide by giving certain schools priority, and this is helped by seeing league tables.

The solution is not to hide information, but to better fund schools with lower attainment. Censorship is rarely good.

peanuthead wrote: »

They don't tell us anything that we didn't already know.

You imply there is no need for league tables. However, there clearly is. Supply and Demand dictates the need. The Media (why does that sound such a pejorative term) don't go to the trouble of producing this information unless it is wanted. If it is wanted and available, it is to the good.

spurious

If a child has parents who are interested enough to even look at league tables, however misleading, they are ahead of many kids to begin with.

Far and away the biggest influence in the academic success of a child is the home environment.

Less than 50% of the kids in our school get to third level (at the moment), but more than 50% are reading well below their chronological age on entry. Some are non-readers, so weak at reading that they cannot score on any scale. Many have no English on entry. Many come from homes where the adults are illiterate.

We do a great job, though from the league table point of view it doesn't show.
League tables? Meh.

peanuthead

smcgiff wrote: »

Why would I? I'd be looking to find the best school for my child. I would not wish for parents of children without special needs not to find the best school for their child. Do you?

With respect, I think you need to go back and re-read my post more carefully.
What I am saying is that SEN children get rejected from schools that are at times in their catchment area in favour of 'great' kids that arent. And that schools do this because of this 'league table culture' that our media has contributed to. You would not like it if you were finding it hard to get your daughter into a school if the shoe was on the other foot.

Can I just say that this is not a criticism of you - you are doing what is right for your child, and fair play to you. You are also right that I would do the same. It is the society that we live in. But it's wrong, those things should not be published. Thats my opinion.

spurious wrote: »

Far and away the biggest influence in the academic success of a child is the home environment.


We do a great job, though from the league table point of view it doesn't show.
League tables? Meh.

Agree completely.

Powerhouse

smcgiff wrote: »

1) but as to making a crucial decision on the basis of looking at a selection of kids conducting themselves!!! The mind boggles.

2) 'League' Tables are also a useful tool - not ideal, but every piece of information should be used.

1) And in that very mindboggling lies the knowledge gap between "educators" and parents as to the nature of a good school.
How detestable a child will be at 22 will be hugely influenced by the school, but again league tables don't measure that.

Broadly speaking a child whom is destined for university will get there from pretty much any school as it is the support from the home which influences this more than anything. From that point of view schools who do not cherry-pick students by whatever means and achieve university figures of 70 per cent plus are in effect at 100 per cent as a certain cohort will not go to third-level anyway. Achieving 100 per cent among a student cohort which would have ended up there anyway impresses only those who haven't the remotest notion what they are on about.

2) Every piece of information should be used? Really? Are you seriously suggesting that given what you have already said that any piece of information other than the league tables will actually matter when you make such a decision?

smcgiff

Powerhouse wrote: »

1)
Broadly speaking a child whom is destined for university will get there from pretty much any school as it is the support from the home which influences this more than anything.

There is an element of truth in what you say, however to think that teachers* or schools wont have a significant impact on even a gifted child is naive.

* I know you are going to say you didn't say that, but you are suggesting all schools, and by implication, teachers are equal, and seem to imply that it is irrelevant what school a child goes to.

Powerhouse wrote: »

1) And in that very mindboggling lies the knowledge gap between "educators" and parents as to the nature of a good school.
How detestable a child will be at 22 will be hugely influenced by the school, but again league tables don't measure that.

Oh, a child's character can be influenced by a school, but not their educational achievement?!?

Condescension and incorrect assumptions aside, I think you have it backwards. I think how detestable a child is would be far more influenced by their home environment. This behaviour is largely in place even before a child enters school.

Powerhouse wrote: »

2) Every piece of information should be used? Really? Are you seriously suggesting that given what you have already said that any piece of information other than the league tables will actually matter when you make such a decision?

A poster above has suggested I'd my mind made up before the league tables came out, and you are suggesting it's the only factor I will consider when making my choice.

What we did do is take advice from friends who grew up in our area and went to the open days for these schools and applied on that basis. The league tables reinforced our preferences we made several weeks ago. When applying we had to list our preferences, and the rest is left up to a lottery. We have also applied to another school that is outside the lottery system and we hope to be able to choose between the two schools.

However, parents, for whatever reason, that cannot make open days or use other information (such as friend recommendations), then the league tables can be used for consideration.

Now, should parents with children that are not performing well choose a school on the basis of the % of students going onto further education? That is debatable. Although the question in my mind is whether there are ANY schools that cater for these students. Are schools with low third level attainment any more suitable?

oh well

I thought schools (other than private fee paying ones) weren't permitted to allocate school places based on entrance exam results any more. How then do some schools choose "brighter" children (especially when outside their catchment areas) over children who may not be able to perform just as well. within the schools my own kids are attending, its only once the kids have been accepted to the schools they are then ability tested based on entrance tests. However, the schools are high achieving school on the league tables.

gaeilgegrinds

I really can't stand these tables. The cream will always rise. As important and all as us teachers would like to feel we are I feel the parents are the primary educators. I was in a disadvantaged school as a student myself and loads of my class did very well, the teachers were amazing and really cared. Those qualities are not quantifiable. It's easy for schools at the top to get those results when most of the students there are getting grinds in pretty much every subject, often times it's not down to the school. I know this as I gave grinds when on a part-time contract to those students for long enough, that said my own students in the disadvantaged school I teach in get those same notes for free...point being, those who want to get there will.

Powerhouse

smcgiff wrote: »

1) * I know you are going to say you didn't say that, but you are suggesting all schools, and by implication, teachers are equal, and seem to imply that it is irrelevant what school a child goes to.


2) Oh, a child's character can be influenced by a school, but not their educational achievement?!?

3) Condescension and incorrect assumptions aside, I think you have it backwards. I think how detestable a child is would be far more influenced by their home environment. This behaviour is largely in place even before a child enters school.

4) A poster above has suggested I'd my mind made up before the league tables came out, and you are suggesting it's the only factor I will consider when making my choice.

1) Indeed t'is true for you - I certainly did not say all schools are equal. What I said was (and I'll quote it again in the hope that it is read this time) that "broadly speaking a child whom is destined for university will get there from pretty much any school as it is the support from the home which influences this more than anything".

To decode this apparently cryptic point, I would say that if someone picks a school with university entrance as the sole criterion in mind then it probably is largely irrelevant which school they go to. If someone has broader ideas on what education should be and how it should prepare people for the real world then the question of a school is a more complex matter.

2) If you could deal with what I write and not with what I don't write that's be good.

3) Incorrect assumptions? What incorrect assumptions?

But moving from talk of incorrect assumptions to crass misrepresentations, I did not write anything about how a child is influenced by their home environment. Their behaviour and inter-personal skills are obviously hugely influenced by being in a group situation in a school environment for seven hours a day. This is the only place where the values and prejudices of home are either challenged or reinforced.

I did not in any way set this against the significance of the home environment. In fact I would argue that because the home environment is so powerful it puts a greater onus on the school to act as a counter-balance.

4) You have posted four times on this issue by now and despite the vaguely promising platitude "every piece of information should be used", you have not mentioned any of the other criteria on your list.

smcgiff

Powerhouse wrote: »

1) Indeed t'is true for you - I certainly did not say all schools are equal. What I said was (and I'll quote it again in the hope that it is read this time) that "broadly speaking a child whom is destined for university will get there from pretty much any school as it is the support from the home which influences this more than anything".

To decode this apparently cryptic point, I would say that if someone picks a school with university entrance as the sole criterion in mind then it probably is largely irrelevant which school they go to. If someone has broader ideas on what education should be and how it should prepare people for the real world then the question of a school is a more complex matter.

2) If you could deal with what I write and not with what I don't write that's be good.

3) Incorrect assumptions? What incorrect assumptions?

But moving from talk of incorrect assumptions to crass misrepresentations, I did not write anything about how a child is influenced by their home environment. Their behaviour and inter-personal skills are obviously hugely influenced by being in a group situation in a school environment for seven hours a day. This is the only place where the values and prejudices of home are either challenged or reinforced.

I did not in any way set this against the significance of the home environment. In fact I would argue that because the home environment is so powerful it puts a greater onus on the school to act as a counter-balance.

4) You have posted four times on this issue by now and despite the vaguely promising platitude "every piece of information should be used", you have not mentioned any of the other criteria on your list.

1 - You have said it's irrelevant what school a child goes to as they will get to university anyway - in that sense you are implying they are equal in their irrelevance.

2- I'm going to let what is written above speak for itself.

3 - You made the point, when quoting me, that this was the difference between educators and parents. Were you implying I, my wife or both of us are not educators?

4 - Now try reading my posts again. You know when you've said to your students, read everything carefully before answering...

peanuthead

oh well wrote: »

I thought schools (other than private fee paying ones) weren't permitted to allocate school places based on entrance exam results any more. How then do some schools choose "brighter" children (especially when outside their catchment areas) over children who may not be able to perform just as well. within the schools my own kids are attending, its only once the kids have been accepted to the schools they are then ability tested based on entrance tests. However, the schools are high achieving school on the league tables.

In these cases I assume there are a number of things goin on...
Some schools I would imagine operate on a 'who you know' basis, or a 'past pupil' way of recommending students.

Secondary schools are liasing with primary schools too I'm sure. While I actually think this is a good idea I would assume that in the cases that it is being done, its being done for the wrong reasons.

Schools can unfortunately get away with refusing to accept certain students too. For example, I think it's the Education Act that states that reasonable accomodations must be made for students with special needs, but they never actually specify what those reasonable accomodations are. So if your child has a special need which requires him/her to have a scribe, the school may just decide this is their way out of accepting. Lots of parents don't tell us about their child's special needs becuase of this, although we would NEVER turn a child away.
We were bottom of the league table in our area. make of that what you will.

ESL students can be rejected in this same way "Sorry, we don't have the funds for language support"

Travellers are excluded a lot of the times as a lack of permanent address leaves them out of the catchement area.

As said before, the school I work in was last of the league table. For educational success, yes. But, as argued above, who is evaluating the personal development, the arrogance, the social improvement of these children ... that's a league table I'd like to see.

I am so proud to work where I do, I really am. And the reason I don't like those league tables is because they fool teachers who work in schools like mine into thinking they are no good, when in fact, the reality is that we work in the schools that others could never handle. It's easy to teach the ones who want to learn, the real challenge is helping those who find it hard. Shame on those who compile those tables.

gaeilgegrinds

Peanuthead, you sound just like me!

Powerhouse

smcgiff wrote: »

1 - You have said it's irrelevant what school a child goes to as they will get to university anyway - in that sense you are implying they are equal in their irrelevance.

2- I'm going to let what is written above speak for itself.

3 - You made the point, when quoting me, that this was the difference between educators and parents. Were you implying I, my wife or both of us are not educators?

4 - Now try reading my posts again. You know when you've said to your students, read everything carefully before answering...

Why do you keep wittering on about what I am "implying" and just deal with what I actually wrote?

peanuthead

smcgiff wrote: »

1 - You have said it's irrelevant what school a child goes to as they will get to university anyway - in that sense you are implying they are equal in their irrelevance.

2- I'm going to let what is written above speak for itself.

3 - You made the point, when quoting me, that this was the difference between educators and parents. Were you implying I, my wife or both of us are not educators?

4 - Now try reading my posts again. You know when you've said to your students, read everything carefully before answering...

Seeing as Powerhouse is obviously speaking a different language to you I'm going to try:

Not all schools are equal in their irrelevance, but there is only so much they can be responsible for, the rest is on the part of the child.

Two cases here: me and my best friend.

I'm from a disadvantaged area. I went to a disadvantaged school. While I was there my parents went through an awful separation, where my mother disappeared off the face of the planet, never to be seen again. My father, an alcoholic, then went on to drink solidly for 2 years.
I went to university. Got a degree, got a postgrad, doing my hdip and I plan to do 2 masters after that.

My friend... very privledged. Went to Institute of Ed for 5th and 6th. She did a poor leaving cert and now works as a waitress.

I have nothing against waitresses before you start, Ive done it before and if I don't get a job next year I'll do it again.

The very long winded point being made here is THE SCHOOL YOU CHOOSE IS IRRELEVENT IF YOUR VERY BRIGHT DAUGHTER DECIDES SHE DOESN'T WANT TO GO TO COLLEGE.

However, having said all that I commend you for having an interest in your daughters education, a lot of parents don't and you obviously want her to do well. But you would do well to accept that sometimes when we think we are doing the right thing it can sometimes be that we are not informed correctly.

Its not that we dont think you and your wife are educators - but this is our job, we are bound to know more of what goes on behind the scenes than you are.

gaeilgegrinds

Agree with a lot said here, I had it tough, did it cos I really wanted to it. A neighbour went to a private school and got 590, did law and never worked. She's lived on benefits her whole life, never had any get up and go. And before anyone says, I'm not saying both go hand in hand. But in her case she was butt lazy. Failed each year of her degree. So it took her twice as long to do as most. She never gave a damn. If your daughter wants it, she'll get it.

smcgiff

Powerhouse wrote: »

Why do you keep wittering on about what I am "implying" and just deal with what I actually wrote?

Cop out much?

Peanut, will get back to you after I've watched House.

smcgiff

peanuthead wrote: »

Seeing as Powerhouse is obviously speaking a different language to you I'm going to try:

I get it - I really do. You are a super humanitarian, and as Mother Theresa had the whole medical thing sown up you opted for education. Hey, who would have thought it. I can do sarcasm as well, perhaps I should drop down a level to 2nd level education.

Sarcasm aside, I understand your concern that some schools would be worried about taking on poorly achieving students. There are some regions where this may still be possible (although not in mine - where there is a lottery system).

And as I have said above, poorly achieving schools should get greater funding to compensate.

However, it is naive to think that a child has an equal chance of getting to university. Take a student from an inner city school as, for example, a school that will appear high on the league table. Yes, I know there are individual stories of success, but on average...


Re educator comments - I've sent you a PM.

Sir Humphrey

smcgiff wrote: »

Re educator comments - I've sent you a PM.

What's the deal with the educator comments that requires it to be done by PM? If you have a Nobel Prize for Education or something why not just spit it out and see who cares? This is a public discussion board after all. Why refer to things publicly that you cannot flesh out publicly?

smcgiff

Sir Humphrey wrote: »

This is a public discussion board after all. Why refer to things publicly that you cannot flesh out publicly?

Some are more public than others. There are PM options for a reason - feel free to assume any reason you like - I quite like your Nobel prize one though.

Besides, it succeeded in flushing you out from lurking, although I'll wait to see if this was a good or a bad thing!

Sir Humphrey

smcgiff wrote: »

Some are more public than others. There are PM options for a reason - feel free to assume any reason you like - I quite like your Nobel prize one though.

Besides, it succeeded in flushing you out from lurking, although I'll wait to see if this was a good or a bad thing!

The Nobel Prize thing was a question not an assumption. This thing '?' at the end of a sentence means it's a question.

But I think I'll assume the more obvious - that you are a Walter Mitty style man of intrigue behind your keyboard, stopping from his intrepid lifestyle only to glory in flushing put lurkers. It's a type of substitute for achievement I suppose.

smcgiff

Sir Humphrey wrote: »

If you have a Nobel Prize for Education or something why not just spit it out and see who cares?

See who cares? is the question part, the first part of the sentence syntax suppositioned the possibility of me being a Nobel laureate (thanks again!)

And as for me outing you from lurking being a good idea...

oh well

peanuthead wrote: »

In these cases I assume there are a number of things goin on...
Some schools I would imagine operate on a 'who you know' basis, or a 'past pupil' way of recommending students.

Secondary schools are liasing with primary schools too I'm sure. While I actually think this is a good idea I would assume that in the cases that it is being done, its being done for the wrong reasons.

Schools can unfortunately get away with refusing to accept certain students too. For example, I think it's the Education Act that states that reasonable accomodations must be made for students with special needs, but they never actually specify what those reasonable accomodations are. So if your child has a special need which requires him/her to have a scribe, the school may just decide this is their way out of accepting. Lots of parents don't tell us about their child's special needs becuase of this, although we would NEVER turn a child away.
We were bottom of the league table in our area. make of that what you will.

ESL students can be rejected in this same way "Sorry, we don't have the funds for language support"

Travellers are excluded a lot of the times as a lack of permanent address leaves them out of the catchement area.

..............

I'm in a lottery type school system too - if you don't gain a place based on the school's enrolment policy you go into the lottery system. While secondary schools may or may not be liaising with primary schools, the application forms do not at any point ask any questions re special needs, ability, traveller/language status, etc. This info should not be avail to a secondary school until the children have all been accepted on a clean slate basis. Then the appropriate support help should be put in place. All schools which are funded by the state should have this same criteria. There will still be schools which have an "elitist" element but it gives fair advantage to all children to fulfil their potential ability. A school application system of who you know or don't know is no longer acceptable method of determining school placement, I thought it was dead and gone to be honest. Whole city of Limerick uses a lottery type system if you don't have automatic place based on the schools' enrolment policies. Its open and fair and where it hasn't been seen to be fair or open, parents have taken the schools to appeal Section 29 with the Dept of Education.

I do believe also that a child from any school who really wants to get on in life, will do so if proper parental support is there. Some of the "highest" schools in the country have terrible teachers, same as some of the "lowest" schools have brilliant teachers who interested in their pupils.

Delphi91

spurious wrote: »

If a child has parents who are interested enough to even look at league tables, however misleading, they are ahead of many kids to begin with.

Far and away the biggest influence in the academic success of a child is the home environment.

Less than 50% of the kids in our school get to third level (at the moment), but more than 50% are reading well below their chronological age on entry. Some are non-readers, so weak at reading that they cannot score on any scale. Many have no English on entry. Many come from homes where the adults are illiterate.

We do a great job, though from the league table point of view it doesn't show.
League tables? Meh.

That sounds like a carbon copy of where I teach. I feel very proud of taking a child with a reading age of 6 (yes, I did say 6!) in first year and having them leave us with a reading age of, say, 10 - this is against a climate of poor attendance, lack of parental interest/involvement in education, etc. In a way, I class that as a far better achievement than having one of our "better" students go to third level, something they probably would have been able to do anyway irrespective of what school they went to. But we don't feature high on a league table because of that.

Toto Wolfcastle

smcgiff wrote: »

Some are more public than others. There are PM options for a reason - feel free to assume any reason you like - I quite like your Nobel prize one though.

Besides, it succeeded in flushing you out from lurking, although I'll wait to see if this was a good or a bad thing!

Sir Humphrey wrote: »

The Nobel Prize thing was a question not an assumption. This thing '?' at the end of a sentence means it's a question.

But I think I'll assume the more obvious - that you are a Walter Mitty style man of intrigue behind your keyboard, stopping from his intrepid lifestyle only to glory in flushing put lurkers. It's a type of substitute for achievement I suppose.

smcgiff wrote: »

See who cares? is the question part, the first part of the sentence syntax suppositioned the possibility of me being a Nobel laureate (thanks again!)

And as for me outing you from lurking being a good idea...

Please stick with the topic at hand and keep off-topic discussion to PMs. Thank you.

evolving_doors

peanuthead wrote: »

in yesterdays independent

Can anyone provide me with a link to these online as I need a copy of them,

thanks!!

Dreadful things these 'league tables..'
Should be banned..
nothing to do with real education..
Wishy washy lazy jounalism dressed up as statistics that we're all supposed to read between the lines as to what they mean ...wink wink nudge nudge... my school is better than yours..

anyhow ......rant over..now for the hypocrasy...

Can anyone answer peanuthead's original post??

I'm just curious to have a gawk just to see where my school's at...(educational rubbernecking:))

peanuthead

Armelodie wrote: »

Dreadful things these 'league tables..'
Should be banned..
nothing to do with real education..
Wishy washy lazy jounalism dressed up as statistics that we're all supposed to read between the lines as to what they mean ...wink wink nudge nudge... my school is better than yours..

anyhow ......rant over..now for the hypocrasy...

Can anyone answer peanuthead's original post??

I'm just curious to have a gawk just to see where my school's at...(educational rubbernecking:))

Never got a link, but was lucky enough to obtain a hard copy. If you want to drop me a PM I can tell you where the school is at, other than that I'm sure someone in your school must have read them.