Best keeper outside top four and Given

Chardee MacDennis

how can people under rate gomes so badly? hiddink thinks he is one of the best in the world, i think i would take him out of all the prem keepers (after Shay actually) if we didnt have Pepe...

premierstone

aaronh007 wrote: »

Ha! Who voted for Gomes?

Why not?? I voted Sorennson myself but and I say this as an Arsenal fan, Gomes is top top quality and Arsenal could do with someone of he's class tbh............ I feel dirty now

noodler

fkt wrote: »

What has Given done to be mentioned in the same breath as Pepe Reina?

Lots

x in the city wrote: »

why is papa reina so sought after? Im sure if he was as good as he is made out to be he would have been snapped up by them, er. galacticos...

He is a very solid keeper no doubt about it, but no more so that several others in the top flight

Ah no Reina is excellent in fairness bar the odd howler but they have mostly dried up.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Shay Given is rubbish at dealing with crosses.

Thats why none of the top clubs ever went in for him.

Very very very good goalie. & one of our best ever players.

But not world class.

Al at his begrudging best.

I remember the whole "he only looks good at crap defences"

but that didn't work with Ireland becasue we generally have a pretty tight defence.

Now he has a multimillion pound defence (team) on front of him and he is still having to put up with the crap defenders stick despite the fact he is doing very well there too.

GavRedKing

I voted on a personal choice rather then who I think the best is, I went for Hart becasue I think he has it all to become a top keeper if he gets the right breaks.

Of that list there is at least 4 or 5 keepers ahead of him but that would be my choice if I was a manager of a team and wanted to pick up a good young keeper.

The_Kew_Tour

tough one but i go Sorenson

SlickRic

monkey9 wrote: »

I remember Reina f*cking up at Old Trafford (the one where Anderson played his great match for Utd), Birmingham away, Ashton's goal in the Cup Final.

and that f*cking derby where he popped the ball in the air for Johnson to nod it in.

i'll never forget it.

your point still stands though. i just thought i'd be a pain in the a*se and give another of Pep's errors.

Warper

Schwarzer or Freidel for me. England are in trouble for the WC as they cant even find one top-class keeper. It seems once you play in goal for England your confidence is shot and you end up playing with some dud team.

noodler

SlickRic wrote: »

and that f*cking derby where he popped the ball in the air for Johnson to nod it in.

i'll never forget it.

your point still stands though. i just thought i'd be a pain in the a*se and give another of Pep's errors.

Aye,

I think his most recent one was in the CL quarters at the bridge. That near post anomally? Can't remember if it was Drogba or Anelka who got the credit.

By and large though he is mr consistency for sure.

I am on my own here but I don't fully absolve for for Choo-Choo's goal at Anfield a few weeks ago.

Fratton Fred

On Given, why is it that if you don't think he is world class, you get slated for thinking he is rubbish? IMHO, there are no world class keepers in the premiership at the moment and there hasn't been since Peter Schmeichel retired.

SlickRic

Fratton Fred wrote: »

IMHO, there are no world class keepers in the premiership at the moment and there hasn't been since Peter Schmeichel retired.

wtf is world class then?

by your credentials it's potentially just a class of two i'm guessing with Buffon and Casillas?

i think it's unfair to deem keepers not world class if they don't reach the freakish standards of these two.

it's like saying nobody is world class apart from messi and ronaldo, because they're the top 2 forwards in the world.

kenon

Casillas isn't that stunning a GK. He's very good don't get me wrong but he isn't along side Buffon in my eyes.

As for there not being any world class goalkeepers in the PL since Schmeichel, the less said about that the better.

SlickRic

kenon wrote: »

As for there not being any world class goalkeepers in the PL since Schmeichel, the less said about that the better.

in no particular order...

Cech - he had a dodgy period last season, but for me, is back to form this
Reina - liverpool's most consistent performer. would probably get 100 national caps if he was any other nationality.
James - for the 3/4 years before this year, he has been exceptional in all aspects of goalkeeping
Given - it's been said in this thread already. unbelievable shot stopper. his 'inability at crosses' is a myth. one of his country's greatest players ever.
VDS - has won everything. i've been a huge critic of his, but his importance to the team was only highlighted by his absence eariler this season.

imho, none of these are quite at that freakish standard of a Buffon, or (imo) Casillas. but they are all excellent, and would do justice to any other team in the world.

kenon

SlickRic wrote: »

in no particular order...

Cech - he had a dodgy period last season, but for me, is back to form this
Reina - liverpool's most consistent performer. would probably get 100 national caps if he was any other nationality.
James - for the 3/4 years before this year, he has been exceptional in all aspects of goalkeeping
Given - it's been said in this thread already. unbelievable shot stopper. his 'inability at crosses' is a myth. one of his country's greatest players ever.
VDS - has won everything. i've been a huge critic of his, but his importance to the team was only highlighted by his absence eariler this season.

imho, none of these are quite at that freakish standard of a Buffon, or (imo) Casillas. but they are all excellent, and would do justice to any other team in the world.

I'd agree with them but I still feel uncomfortable watching James as he still has mistakes in him to this day so I wouldn't put him in the list even though he is excellent at coming off his line and is quite assertive in coming for crosses.

I really rate Jussi aswel. Friedel has come a long way from his Liverpool days. Actually, the PL has had quite a few excellent keepers.

kenon

I missed VDS. I'm a critic of his as well. I don't think I'd class him as world class anymore but he does have a great affect on the United defense to this day. He has pulled it together in recent months.

SlickRic

kenon wrote: »

I really rate Jussi aswel. Friedel has come a long way from his Liverpool days. Actually, the PL has had quite a few excellent keepers.

absolutely.

imo these two are examples of keepers in that level just below.

premierstone

kenon wrote: »

I missed VDS. I'm a critic of his as well. I don't think I'd class him as world class anymore but he does have a great affect on the United defense to this day. He has pulled it together in recent months.

Interesting you should mention this was having a similar conversation with a Man U fan at the weekend and he was making that point aswell when I suggested VDS was slipping, and my answer to that was yes it looks as if VDS has a great organising and calming affect on the united back 4 but I would put that down more to Fosters incompetence tbh.

dyl10

kenon wrote: »

I'd agree with them but I still feel uncomfortable watching James as he still has mistakes in him to this day so I wouldn't put him in the list even though he is excellent at coming off his line and is quite assertive in coming for crosses.

I really rate Jussi aswel. Friedel has come a long way from his Liverpool days. Actually, the PL has had quite a few excellent keepers.

I reckon Cech probably makes more mistakes than James does, these days.
James is a great keeper and doesn't fall to pieces like some of the others during a bad day. England's best keeper, for me.

SlickRic

dyl10 wrote: »

I reckon Cech probably makes more mistakes than James does, these days.
James is a great keeper and doesn't fall to pieces like some of the others during a bad day. England's best keeper, for me.

to use an old cliché, 'form is temporary, class is permanent'.

cech has had one dodgy season.

he's back to close to his best now i think.

james had plenty of dodgy seasons, and i'll go out on a limb and predict that when all is said and done with their respective careers, Cech will have had far less dodgy seasons than David James.

kenon

premierstone wrote: »

Interesting you should mention this was having a similar conversation with a Man U fan at the weekend and he was making that point aswell when I suggested VDS was slipping, and my answer to that was yes it looks as if VDS has a great organising and calming affect on the united back 4 but I would put that down more to Fosters incompetence tbh.

It could well be that. Its difficult to say what it is for sure.

Fratton Fred

SlickRic wrote: »

wtf is world class then?

by your credentials it's potentially just a class of two i'm guessing with Buffon and Casillas?

i think it's unfair to deem keepers not world class if they don't reach the freakish standards of these two.

it's like saying nobody is world class apart from messi and ronaldo, because they're the top 2 forwards in the world.

For me, world class means a truely great player. If a worlds best team was put together at the moment and it had Given, or Reina in goal, they would be the weak link.

There is no goalkeeper in the premiership who is fit enough to clean the boots of Dino Zoff, Gordon Banks or Schmeichel

SlickRic

you see world class isn't truly great. those keepers you listed are legendary. big difference.

given or reina could grace any team in the world right now, and a weak link they would not be.

by your reasoning, since nobody is as good as Pelé, Ronaldo (Brazilian), Best and Maradona were, then there are no world class players right now.

Fratton Fred

SlickRic wrote: »

you see world class isn't truly great. those keepers you listed are legendary. big difference.

given or reina could grace any team in the world right now, and a weak link they would not be.

by your reasoning, since nobody is as good as Pelé, Ronaldo (Brazilian), Best and Maradona were, then there are no world class players right now.

World class is more than just being the best in the world at that particular time (and I don't think Given and Reina are anywhere near that anyway).

world class would be fitting in a team of egends and not looking out of place, being a true world class player, not just the best of a bad bunch.

JPA

Fratton Fred wrote: »

World class is more than just being the best in the world at that particular time (and I don't think Given and Reina are anywhere near that anyway).

world class would be fitting in a team of egends and not looking out of place, being a true world class player, not just the best of a bad bunch.

That's just your definition of World Class and seems more restrictive then any I've ever seen. But you don't want to have "that" argument.

Kenteach

Had the whole 'what exactly does world class mean' with a gang of lads after the rugby on saturday. Some claimed that it should only apply if you would select a player on a World XV, or in this case a World XI. We eventually agreed that we could name a 'World Squad'. By that rationale, as most international squads have 3 keepers, you could only have 3 world class keepers at any given time. What do people think? How many goalkeepers can be classed as world class at any given time, and does their status depend on how many other keepers are top class at the time?

For what its worth, I'd take Schwarzer over all in the PL with the exceptions of Cech and Van Der Sar. None of those are world class, in my view, at the moment.

SlickRic

Fratton Fred wrote: »

World class is more than just being the best in the world at that particular time (and I don't think Given and Reina are anywhere near that anyway).

as JPA says, i don't think this is the time for this argument. but i'll say this as my last thing on it here...

world class surely means being the best in the world.

plus present day players aren't a 'bad bunch'. you're suffering from nostalgia if that's the case

legendary or a 'great' would surely be what you're talking about.

but your welcome to your definition, it's just i do feel it's very restrictive and you're talking about a tiny group of players which consist of the greatest ever; those whose legacies are written, and those we're able to remember in a very nostalgic manner.

Fratton Fred

JPA wrote: »

That's just your definition of World Class and seems more restrictive then any I've ever seen.

Kenteach put it very well i think.

What I am getting at is that you can't just go around calling people world class for the sake of it.

JPA wrote: »

But you don't want to have "that" argument.

Why not? are you going to get your big borther on me

monkey9

Fratton Fred wrote: »

For me, world class means a truely great player. If a worlds best team was put together at the moment and it had Given, or Reina in goal, they would be the weak link.

There is no goalkeeper in the premiership who is fit enough to clean the boots of Dino Zoff, Gordon Banks or Schmeichel

I completely disagree with you. Given or Reina would never ever be a weak link in a team. They are so consistent!!
It all comes down to the definition of World class. For me, World Class is someone who could easily adapt to any club or international team in the world and never look out of place. Shay Given would be most teams number one in the world!!

It can come down to necessity as well. Real Madrid, for example, don't need Given. But he is good enough for them. He is good enough for any team in the world!!

JPA

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Kenteach put it very well i think.

What I a of it.
m getting at is that you can't just go around calling people world class for the sake


Why not? are you going to get your big borther on me

I possibly agree with you on the keepers but I was just saying that argument has been done to death and has no answer.

Fratton Fred

monkey9 wrote: »

I completely disagree with you. Given or Reina would never ever be a weak link in a team. They are so consistent!!
It all comes down to the definition of World class. For me, World Class is someone who could easily adapt to any club or international team in the world and never look out of place. Shay Given would be most teams number one in the world!!

It can come down to necessity as well. Real Madrid, for example, don't need Given. But he is good enough for them. He is good enough for any team in the world!!

some say he never sleeps
some say, his nails are made of tungsten carbide
some say, when he pulls his trousers up, the sun goes in:D

i wonder if shay Given is really the Stig:P

monkey9

Fratton Fred wrote: »

some say he never sleeps
some say, his nails are made of tungsten carbide
some say, when he pulls his trousers up, the sun goes in:D

i wonder if shay Given is really the Stig:P

Bjornebye?? NAH, Shay's better than him, in fairness

Thanx 4 The Fish

Jasskaleinen for me. The lad is a legend, one of the best shot stoppers about and decent on a cross too.

orourkeda

fkt wrote: »

What has Given done to be mentioned in the same breath as Pepe Reina?

Played well

therokerroar

When fit, it's got to be Craig Gordon for me.

Superb when he gets a run of games injury free and really was showing huge potential before the little knacker Defoe decided to aim a sly kick and break his arm.

He's younger than 90% of the goalkeepers that play every week in the Premier League and will go on to become a top, top goalkeeper.