O'Leary on RTE this morning , priceless!

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

It certainly was not the highly unionised Aer Lingus, which was joined at the hip with the government. Nor was it the public sector which took the initiative, took the risk + worked bl**dy hard, as MOL said.

It was the public sector, in the form of the EC, that took the initiative: they changed the rules of the game.

murphaph

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It was the public sector, in the form of the EC, that took the initiative: they changed the rules of the game.

Under pressure from Ryanair etc. who had seen what open skies in the US had done for competition perhaps? Ryanair copied the Southwest model almost 100%, it just happened to be an irish firm that did it first, possibly because the stranglehold on the London Dublin route was the most extreme example of teh DEAD HAND of the public sector in Europe. You most likely benefit from Ryanair's actions even if you never fly with them but can't give them any credit, seemingly?

P. Breathnach

murphaph wrote: »

Under pressure from Ryanair etc. who had seen what open skies in the US had done for competition perhaps? Ryanair copied the Southwest model almost 100%, it just happened to be an irish firm that did it first, possibly because the stranglehold on the London Dublin route was the most extreme example of teh DEAD HAND of the public sector in Europe.

Is this history or speculation and invention?

You most likely benefit from Ryanair's actions even if you never fly with them but can't give them any credit, seemingly?

The cartel was broken. If Ryanair had not grabbed the market, somebody else would have. Are you unwilling to give the EC any credit?

P. Breathnach

murphaph wrote: »

... Ryanair copied the Southwest model almost 100%...

Really? Who told you that, Michael O'Leary?

Southwest is heavily unionised, shares profits with staff, and commands great employee loyalty. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines and http://employmentlawpost.com/oswaldletters/2009/11/29/corporate-culture-done-right-southwest-airlines/. That doesn't read like a model Ryanair copied almost 100%. It looks to me as if what Ryanair got was the idea of fast turnaround and sweating its major assets, the aircraft. They missed out on the "be nice to people" module.

P. Breathnach

Diarmuid wrote: »

:pac: Your obsession with not giving O'Leary an inch of credit has reached ridiculous proportions.

That's bollocks. I am pointing to the fact that deregulation, promoted by the EC, created the conditions that allowed Ryanair to progress and prosper. What's ridiculous about that?

murphaph

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's bollocks. I am pointing to the fact that deregulation, promoted by the EC, created the conditions that allowed Ryanair to progress and prosper. What's ridiculous about that?

Do you reckon that the Irish public sector if not forced to by Europe would have done the same?

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It was the public sector, in the form of the EC, that took the initiative: they changed the rules of the game.

Oh, so how to you explain Aer Lingus being a basket case company then when you claim the success of Ryanair is down to EC deregulation??? If that's true, then surely Aer Lingus would be automatically as successful as Ryanair???

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dr Galen

Darragh29 wrote: »

Oh, so how to you explain Aer Lingus being a basket case company then when you claim the success of Ryanair is down to EC deregulation??? If that's true, then surely Aer Lingus would be automatically as successful as Ryanair???

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

all the rolleyes in the world won't make what your saying true.

PB is stating the EC were the ones who initially deregulated the industry in broad terms. This action led in part to the Ryanair we have today, in that it gave an opportunity to Ryanair, that otherwise would not have existed. Since then Ryanair have indeed ploughed their own furrow, and done very well at it, if thats your kinda thing. You have to respect O'Leary though, he has his way, he does it and feck those who disagrees. Along with his senior management teams over the years, he has made Ryanair into the large carrier it is today. Respect is one thing though, idolatry is another

As for Aer Lingus, your pretty much right, they were caught napping, lost the position they had and have been playing catchup since then. Very different companies though, following very different models until relatively recently.

Diarmuid

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's bollocks. I am pointing to the fact that deregulation, promoted by the EC, created the conditions that allowed Ryanair to progress and prosper. What's ridiculous about that?

seriously, let it go. Your blind hatred of the man is unbecoming.

Darragh29

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

all the rolleyes in the world won't make what your saying true.

PB is stating the EC were the ones who initially deregulated the industry in broad terms. This action led in part to the Ryanair we have today, in that it gave an opportunity to Ryanair, that otherwise would not have existed. Since then Ryanair have indeed ploughed their own furrow, and done very well at it, if thats your kinda thing. You have to respect O'Leary though, he has his way, he does it and feck those who disagrees. Along with his senior management teams over the years, he has made Ryanair into the large carrier it is today. Respect is one thing though, idolatry is another

As for Aer Lingus, your pretty much right, they were caught napping, lost the position they had and have been playing catchup since then. Very different companies though, following very different models until relatively recently.

What deregulation achieved was to restore a level playing field. Most private industries are level playing fields, insofar as they are not massively distorted by legislaton in favour of state companies operating in a protected market.

The fact that Ryanair has suceeded in an open and free market, you could hardly argue was down to the fact that the EC took away the regulation that distorted the market.

There are many businesses that do well in a free market and there are also businesses that don't do so well. The one's that do well, they must be doing something different than the ones that are not growing, I'd argue that this is the most basic rule of capitalism, that businesses succeed through hard work and smart decisions.

You can't argue that they are sucessful "because" they are enjoying the benefit of a free market. Who distorted the market in the first place in favour of state monopolies???

irish_bob

Diarmuid wrote: »

seriously, let it go. Your blind hatred of the man is unbecoming.

champagne socilists cant stomach unapollogetic vulgar capitalists like o leary , no matter what positive changes they have brought to the country

Dr Galen

Darragh29 wrote: »

What deregulation achieved was to restore a level playing field. Most private industries are level playing fields, insofar as they are not massively distorted by legislaton in favour of state companies operating in a protected market.

Agreed

The fact that Ryanair has suceeded in an open and free market, you could hardly argue was down to the fact that the EC took away the regulation that distorted the market.

I'm not arguing that at all. I'm giving you my read on what PB was saying. In that it was the EC who deregulated the market. We agree that this was the right decision don't we? This gave Ryanair the gap that it needed. Without deregulation, they would be here really, would they?

There are many businesses that do well in a free market and there are also businesses that don't do so well. The one's that do well, they must be doing something different than the ones that are not growing, I'd argue that this is the most basic rule of capitalism, that businesses succeed through hard work and smart decisions.

Again, I agree, since deregulation, Ryanair have been very good at the things your talking about. Deregulation allowed them to do that, but it did not automatically make them into what they now are. I'm not saying different to this.

You can't argue that they are sucessful "because" they are enjoying the benefit of a free market. Who distorted the market in the first place in favour of state monopolies???

see above. but I think your missing the wood for the trees here. All I'm arguing against is the blind lovefest for Mick,

it was easier (read lazier) to answer you inquote. My bits are in red

md23040

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Really? Who told you that, Michael O'Leary?

Southwest is heavily unionised, shares profits with staff, and commands great employee loyalty.

It is well known that O'Leary from 1991 had copied the cost structure and business model of South West airlines run by Herb Kelleher, which from 1966 to date has becomel the most successful budget airline in USA, but O'Leary refused to support any frills. Senior management of RA had often visited Dallas in the early 1990's to learn more, also David Bonderman from TPG and board member (also Texan) had quite a lot of experience of South West, as well as M&A activity and came into RA for these reasons.

The open skies policy also of Jan 1 2003 was instrumental in the development of the company and the management had foresight to be prepared to utilise it fully and effectively from the outset.

***Edit addon Btw - To keep on topic : Michael O'Leary IMHO is an anti-establishment hero

Darragh29

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

PB is stating the EC were the ones who initially deregulated the industry in broad terms. This action led in part to the Ryanair we have today, in that it gave an opportunity to Ryanair, that otherwise would not have existed.

But the thing here is that market at issue here wasn't "born" regulated! The market was interfered with by national governments for generations, (national governments that conveniently just happen to collectively make up the same EC organisation that deregulated the market!).

Deregulating the market only created the opportunity to go out and enter the market and make money. The amount of work that is required on behalf of a company, to just enter the market, before a single sale is made, its huge.

For example, I am free today to go out and start an airline business now if I want, or a multi-outlet dealership, or a telecoms company, a media group or a chain of hotels or restaurants.

But at the time of writing, I'm not inclined to do so, or feel the need to thank beaurocrats because I might have the right to do so. I know from experience that there is an almost insurmountable volume of work to get through once you make the decision to start a business, so much so that you are 80% likely to fail...

Dr Galen

Darragh29 wrote: »

But the thing here is that market at issue here wasn't "born" regulated! The market was interfered with by national governments for generations, (national governments that conveniently just happen to collectively make up the same EC organisation that deregulated the market!).

Deregulating the market only created the opportunity to go out and enter the market and make money. The amount of work that is required on behalf of a company, to just enter the market, before a single sale is made, its huge.

For example, I am free today to go out and start an airline business now if I want, or a multi-outlet dealership, or a telecoms company, a media group or a chain of hotels or restaurants.

But at the time of writing, I'm not inclined to do so, or feel the need to thank beaurocrats because I might have the right to do so. I know from experience that there is an almost insurmountable volume of work to get through once you make the decision to start a business, so much so that you are 80% likely to fail...

maybe its me that missing the point here, but aren't we saying the same thing?

deregulation was good
Ryanair exploited this
Ryanair have been successful since then because of the business model they followed

Liam Byrne

gerry28 wrote: »

O'leary is extreme capitalism. He would widen the gap between rich and poor.

As distinct from FF, who........???? :rolleyes:

P. Breathnach

murphaph wrote: »

Do you reckon that the Irish public sector if not forced to by Europe would have done the same?

Not at that time.

P. Breathnach

Diarmuid wrote: »

seriously, let it go. Your blind hatred of the man is unbecoming.

I don't hate O'Leary. Neither do I idolise him. Don't impute to me attitudes I have never expressed.

Your pursuit of me is unbecoming.

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

What deregulation achieved was to restore a level playing field...

I'd quibble with the word "restore". When was there one before?

The fact that Ryanair has suceeded in an open and free market, you could hardly argue was down to the fact that the EC took away the regulation that distorted the market...

Who has made that argument? My argument was that deregulation created the conditions in which Ryanair might succeed. I made no more claim than that.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'd quibble with the word "restore". When was there one before?



Who has made that argument? My argument was that deregulation created the conditions in which Ryanair might succeed. I made no more claim than that.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Deregulation allowed Ryanair go down to the companies office and file a form that let them commence trading as an air transport business. The success of what happened subsequent to that event, was down to the management of the business. Hence why Ryanair is in profit and Aer Lingus is running a loss. There is more to running a sucessful business than a few beaurocrats away in a hall somewhere signing a sheet of paper.

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Deregulation allowed Ryanair go down to the companies office and file a form that let them commence trading as an air transport business...

How was I wrong? I said that deregulation made things possible for Ryanair. You are saying the same thing, while claiming that I was wrong.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

How was I wrong? I said that deregulation made things possible for Ryanair. You are saying the same thing, while claiming that I was wrong.

No what you said was:

P. Breathnach wrote: »

My argument was that deregulation created the conditions in which Ryanair might succeed. I made no more claim than that.

There is a WORLD of difference between those that MIGHT succeed and those that DO succeed. Every single business that is started up MIGHT succeed, 10-20% of them actually succeed...

Dr Galen

darragh your arguing semantics here.

SkepticOne

If the public sector is due credit for the breaking up of the Aer Lingus / BA duopoly it is for getting out of the way, not for any positive contribution. I am happy to give them credit for that though.

P. Breathnach

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

darragh your arguing semantics here.

No, he's not. Semantics has some basis; his distinction is entirely baseless.

SkepticOne

We should all be thankful that someone at an EU level realised that involvement of the Irish and British public sectors in maintaining a duopoly only worked against the interests of the public they were supposedly there to serve.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

No, he's not. Semantics has some basis; his distinction is entirely baseless.

Look, you live in this little public sector bubble, in fairness to you, the environment that you have spent your career in, doesn't know anything about risk, innovation, selflessness, "having to make work", struggling to make it work, you are from a different background than me, I know how hard it is to make a business work and I can tell you now that it has absolutely F*CK ALL to do with beaurocrats or publlic bodies as you have tried to claim here on this thead.

Your answer is to tax innovators and entrepreneurs, the same people who create the VAST MAJORITY of jobs in this country, the people who pay your income I might add.

The best thing people in my position could do is start witholding our P30's every month and the VAT 3 form and the cheques that do in with them and see how quick we'll start seeing the reforms that are being witheld...

cson

That is actually a very valid point.

I do muse as to how an injection of some private sector entrepreneur with a proven track record of running a tight ship like O'Leary does might revitalise maybe even revolutionise the public sector. Darragh, you've made a very valid point about the lack of, or rather lack of need, for innovation and selflessness in the public sector. It's an interesting thought.

Oh as an aside; he pays his own income too Public sector workers do pay tax, don't they?

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

Look, you live in this little public sector bubble, in fairness to you, the environment that you have spent your career in, doesn't know anything about risk, innovation, selflessness, "having to make work", struggling to make it work,

You don't know enough about me to pass that judgement; I suspect that you are operating in "private sector good, public sector bad" mode. I do like the way you slipped in selflessness as an entrepreneurial quality.

you are from a different background than me, I know how hard it is to make a business work and I can tell you now that it has absolutely F*CK ALL to do with beaurocrats or publlic bodies as you have tried to claim here on this thead.

Instead of trying to insult me, why don't you examine what was said? You attempted to refute what I said, and yet said essentially the same thing as I did.

Your answer is to tax innovators and entrepreneurs, the same people who create the VAST MAJORITY of jobs in this country, the people who pay your income I might add.

Evidence, please.

The best thing people in my position could do is start witholding our P30's every month and the VAT 3 form and the cheques that do in with them and see how quick we'll start seeing the reforms that are being witheld...

Oh, I see. Take money from the employees and the public, and hold on to it. That money is not yours.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You don't know enough about me to pass that judgement; I suspect that you are operating in "private sector good, public sector bad" mode. I do like the way you slipped in selflessness as an entrepreneurial quality.

I know enough from your posts on this forum that you've been by far the biggest apologist on the forum for public sector beligerance and intransigence. No matter what the subject, your view is typcally that nothing needs to change, it's all just grand, no need to think outside the box or week out a new perspective...


The only mode I'm operating in is a realistic mode. The way unions have been allowed to operate in this country, the pursuit of endless obstruction, the automatic right to veto anything and everything, and all change having to be run by union officials and everything debated in meetings with a room full of people around big shiny polished tables up in Government Buildings, this model is not sustainable in this 21st century world that we now live in. There was a time back in 1913 when labour had to be withdrawn as a means to achieve an end, (it didn't even work then). We now live in a world where change happens automatically, and if you don't keep up with it, you get left behind, your irrelevant, your gone.

I've no issue with people in the PS getting well paid, my issues are exclusively around the lack of performance management and accountability, the obstruction of change, reform and improvements, the lack of transparency when it comes to reform and getting on with the job, the agenda of vested interesst being put far ahead of the common good and terms and conditions that are simply UNREALISTIC in 2009, being agreed at a whim for the sake of industrial peace and the rest of us being handed the bill for it.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Instead of trying to insult me, why don't you examine what was said? You attempted to refute what I said, and yet said essentially the same thing as I did.

The success of Ryanair or any company for that matter, (with the obvious exceptions of inefficient companies like Irish Rail, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, VHI which are all still sucking on the national tit), is down to the vision and work ethic of those that started up and run the business.

There's another example of backward, gimp like carry on from a union, Dublin Bus... You get on any Dublin Bus and you give the driver a 2 Euro coin, you can't be given change, you get a refund ticket and you have to go off up to the back arse of O' Connell Street somewhere to claim your refund!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You could be going from Lucan to Leixlip, I'd say the fare would be around a Euro, but you are expected to head off into town to get your change?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

This is typical of what I'm talking about, stupid bullsh*t working arrangements like this being put in place without deference to the customer.

Who loses out??? Surprise surprise, it's the paying customer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!