Swiss to Ban Minarets

hooradiation

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I'm not against different beliefs or practising them, I'm not even against mosque building. If a mosque went up in Kilkenny I wouldn't give a monkeys. If you had a tenant in your house you would expect him to obide by your rules, obviously not work-camp type rules but the no loud music after 9 etc.... It's the same with foreigners they are guests and I expect them to be resonable in respect to our culture. If I had a problem with how a country was run I wouldn't move there, simple.

Conversely, if you have a tenant in your house you're expected to not be a dick to them by having rules that are reasonable. In this case, the swiss are being unreasonable dicks.


And sure, it's easy to go "don't move there!" but that ignores the fact that this affects the people who already live there. They ones who work and contribute and happen to follow the Islamic faith.

Most of whom, interestingly enough, wouldn't have been allowed to vote in this referendum.

hooradiation

hooradiation wrote: »

Conversely, if you have a tenant in your house you're expected to not be a dick to them by having rules that are reasonable. In this case, the swiss are being unreasonable dicks.


And sure, it's easy to go "don't move there!" but that ignores the fact that this affects the people who already live there. They ones who work and contribute and happen to follow the Islamic faith.

Most of whom, interestingly enough, wouldn't have been allowed to vote in this referendum.

I think this decision shows that the Swiss simply don't want the place to start resembling downdown Baghdad, whether or not they tolorate Islamists is one thing.

What they have proven is that dhey don't want it on open display and "spoiling" the view.

dr.bollocko

Deleted User wrote: »

I think this decision shows that the Swiss simply don't want the place to start resembling downdown Baghdad, whether or not they tolorate Islamists is one thing.

What they have proven is that dhey don't want it on open display and "spoiling" the view.

:eek:
A couple of minarets = downtown Baghdad now. Yeah. Fair play to the Swiss.
Christ.
I need a drink.

kowloon

Wertz wrote: »

The kind that watch QI probably...

Second only to Wikipedia as the greatest source of all human knowledge. Don't knock it.

kowloon

Captain Havoc wrote: »

And if you thought the Swiss are bad try another of the countries I've lived in: France

And don't get me started on Germany or Belgium.

Big Nasty

dr.bollocko wrote: »

:eek:
A couple of minarets = downtown Baghdad now. Yeah. Fair play to the Swiss.
Christ.
I need a drink.

Start as you mean to go on.

hooradiation

Deleted User wrote: »

I think this decision shows that the Swiss simply don't want the place to start resembling downdown Baghdad, whether or not they tolorate Islamists is one thing.

What they have proven is that dhey don't want it on open display and "spoiling" the view.

The mental gymnastics some people will go to justify this horseshit is amazing.

If your inane reasoning were followed through, they'd also have to tear down any church spire to stop it being on open display or spoiling the view.

Lets see how that one goes down....

dr.bollocko

dr.bollocko wrote: »

:eek:
A couple of minarets = downtown Baghdad now.

The swiss obviously didn't want to wait and find out what the skyline would look like if all those planned were built!

philologos

MCMLXXV wrote: »

If you want to live in Ireland, live like the Irish - end of!

The problem is the Irish live in a number of different ways. Even if you deported all the foreigners from this country, there are still a lot of Irish people who have converted to Islam.

What does living like the Irish mean religiously anyway? - Just don't be a Muslim? Or hold the same religion as the majority of the population? Or don't have one at all?

Acacia

This is disgraceful. Lol at how ''da Muzzie'' bogeymen are caricatured as intolerant a-holes ( and fair enough, some of them are) and now we have a supposedly civilised nation banning a religious symbol. Well, it's fine to stop religious expression once it's the nasty Muslims you're upsetting...

Can somebody please explain why minarets are so offensive? And further lulz at the fact that the people approving of this law are probably the same ones who claim that Muslims are over-sensitive.

The ironing is delicious, etc, etc.

Nodin

monellia wrote: »

I fail to see what's good about accomodating a culture that is fundamentally hostile to the foundations of Western society - such as gender equality, pluralism, and individual liberty.

A presumption on your part.

kincsem wrote:

In Ireland we have a religious influence but they do not make or administer the law..

....as much as they used to.

Pablomakavelli wrote:

A mosque does'nt have to have minarets and they are massive structures.
..

Not nessecarily.

MMCD wrote:

the extremist muslims want the world to be how they want it! ..

...and whats that got to do with minarets in Switzerland.....?

Kev PS3 wrote:

Fair play to them, hope it gets passed and we do the same here.. ..

Yeah, lets single out a minority for persecution.

ejmaztec wrote:

Preventing the construction of a minaret isn't banning a religion. ..

No, its just introducting sectarian requirements/bans into the planning process.

Wertz wrote:

Far too much capitulation to the Islamic faith in the west when the sentiment is far from reciprocated in muslim countries. ..

So, in a nutshell, until Saudi mellows out, the West should be just as intolerant and bigoted as they are?

I'd like three examples of "capitulation" by the way....It seems to have happened while I was asleep.

Dolanbaker wrote:

The swiss obviously didn't want to wait and find out what the skyline would look like if all those planned were built! ..

All four of them....Must be awful not being able to project that kind of thing...they must sit in fear every time a building nears completion, terrified of the result. Ye'd think somebody in a country next door would show them how.

Min

They might not have wanted the hills in that part of the world to be alive with the sound of someone calling them to prayer five times a day.
They want them alive with cow bells.

dvpower

Moomoo1 wrote: »

this isn't about massive structures, it's about intentionally insulting an ethnic minority

there are 4 (four) minarets in Switzerland. Planning applications for new ones are always refused. There simply wasn't a need for the ban, except to make a political statement.

I was being sarcastic. I'm not in favour of the ban. Its utterly daft.
All building should be considered on merit, compliance with strategic and local planning guidelines, building regulations etc...

If there's a noise pollution issue, that can be dealt with using normal legislation.

I doubt that this has got to do with any of this. The Swiss are wary of Islam gaining influence in Switzerland, but don't have the balls to be up front about it, so they concoct this nonsense instead.

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

All four of them....Must be awful not being able to project that kind of thing...they must sit in fear every time a building nears completion, terrified of the result. Ye'd think somebody in a country next door would show them how.

As mentioned by others, there have only been four approved all the others have been rejected! It appears that having seen four, they don't want any more.

Maybe it's the opposite of the Irish planning system - brown envelopes to stop an application rather than "helping" it.

Nodin

Suffice to say that given Swiss attitudes to Foreigners in general, I don't think the skyline is their main concern.

This, for instance, went on for a very long time....
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Ballot_box_votes_on_citizenship_outlawed.html?siteSect=201&sid=8552036&cKey=1208363607000&ty=st&rs=yes

utick

now starts the backlash from years of way over the top pc

Nodin

utick wrote: »

now starts the backlash from years of way over the top pc

"way over the top pc"...in Switzerland.....Hmmmm. Care to elaborate on that (apparently) completely off the mark claim?

Mmcd

I can see that the general reaction here is against the Swiss's decision but to be honest I think if the same were to happen here the result would be closer than you think. How about a private poll to get some sort of idea of peoples view on it?

utick

Nodin wrote: »

"way over the top pc"...in Switzerland.....Hmmmm. Care to elaborate on that (apparently) completely off the mark claim?

well we have seen crucifixes banned in italy because one childs parent found them offensive. interestingly i dont recall the un having problems with that like they do with the ban of minarets in switzerland

green123

dvpower wrote: »

The Swiss are wary of Islam gaining influence in Switzerland,

they are right to be wary.

we all should be more wary of it.

do we really want people who believe in that crazy sh1t having an influence ?

philologos

green123 wrote: »

they are right to be wary.

we all should be more wary of it.

do we really want people who believe in that crazy sh1t having an influence ?

I'm more wary of people like you than Muslims.

People who wish to silence peoples expression in the public sphere merely because they are of a different religion than you are.

Nodin

utick wrote: »

well we have seen crucifixes banned in italy because one childs parent found them offensive.

Really? Thats amazing, because in this dimension, the European court of human rights ruled about crucifixes in the classroom,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8340411.stm
the Government is appealling and it wasn't because a childs parent found them "offensive".

utick wrote: »

interestingly i dont recall the un having problems with that like they do with the ban of minarets in switzerland

Because what you stated hasn't happened, for starters.

Nodin

green123 wrote: »

do we really want people who believe in that crazy sh1t having an influence ?

Is it any crazier than any other religon?

green123

Mmcd wrote: »

I can see that the general reaction here is against the Swiss's decision but to be honest I think if the same were to happen here the result would be closer than you think. How about a private poll to get some sort of idea of peoples view on it?

i think if there was a vote in ireland it would have the same outcome as in switzerland.
well i hope it would anyway.

Nodin

green123 wrote: »

well i hope it would anyway.

Yes, let's hope any pertinent lessons that could be drawn from centuries of persecution fly right over our heads.

dvpower

green123 wrote: »

they are right to be wary.

we all should be more wary of it.

do we really want people who believe in that crazy sh1t having an influence ?

The question of Islamic influence is separate to the question of the construction of minarets. If the Swiss wanted to limit the influence of Islam, they should have formulated some legislation to do that.

But they didn't. Instead they took a bigoted step to ban minarets; not mosques mind, just minarets. This doesn't curb the influence of Islam at all; its just a childish bullying tactic.

green123

dvpower wrote: »

The question of Islamic influence is separate to the question of the construction of minarets. If the Swiss wanted to limit the influence of Islam, they should have formulated some legislation to do that.

But they didn't. Instead they took a bigoted step to ban minarets; not mosques mind, just minarets. This doesn't curb the influence of Islam at all; its just a childish bullying tactic.

one step at a time.

its good to see people finally saying enough is enough

hooradiation

green123 wrote: »

one step at a time.

its good to see people finally saying enough is enough

What does that shit even mean?

Enough what, exactly? What the hell is it that has you so scared shitless that you're oblivious to the parallels this kind of shit has with what has happened on this very island?

dvpower

green123 wrote: »

one step at a time.

Can you outline the next steps please?
Do you have a final step in mind?

Captain Havoc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bobNxyit_vo

green123

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm more wary of people like you than Muslims.

People who wish to silence peoples expression in the public sphere merely because they are of a different religion than you are.

no, not because they are a different religion, because they are wrong and extremist and backward.

here in ireland we have eventually copped enough on to stop allowing religion rule our lives.

time for others to do the same ?

philologos

green123 wrote: »

no, not because they are a different religion, because they are wrong and extremist and backward.

I think that's true in your case. There are a lot of moderate Muslims, and your generalisations are setting us back to the 1930's.

green123 wrote: »

here in ireland we have eventually copped enough on to stop allowing religion rule our lives.

time for others to do the same ?

Do you have any plans for people of Christian belief that I need to hear about?

Forcing your views on religion on others is a denial of freedom of religion.

green123

hooradiation wrote: »

What does that shit even mean?

Enough what, exactly? What the hell is it that has you so scared shitless that you're oblivious to the parallels this kind of shit has with what has happened on this very island?

great example, exactly what i mean.

dvpower wrote: »

Can you outline the next steps please?
Do you have a final step in mind?

people with such extreme different views should not mix.
it simply doesnt work.
it has never worked.

hooradiation

green123 wrote: »

great example, exactly what i mean.

I doubt you realise how you've just made a mockery of your half-assed point.

protip - in this scenario the swiss are not the downtrodden catholics.

green123 wrote: »

people with such extreme different views should not mix.
it simply doesnt work.
it has never worked.

yeah, fuck trying to reach any kind of a compromise!
Talking is for pussies, amirite?
Lets just cower in fear of that which we don't have a clue about, like real men!

green123

hooradiation wrote: »

I doubt you realise how you've just made a mockery of your half-assed point.

protip - in this scenario the swiss are not the downtrodden catholics.

i realise what you mean but you are wrong.
you think everything is ok in the north and everyone is living together happily ?

Manic Moran

Deleted User wrote: »

As mentioned by others, there have only been four approved all the others have been rejected! It appears that having seen four, they don't want any more.

What were the reasons given for the rejections?

Minarets are somewhat against the aesthetic character which defines Switzerland. It'd be less of an issue in some locations than others. A minaret in a stereotypically picturesque Swiss mountain town is going to look particularly odd compared to one in South Central Zurich where it's in a range of a whole variety of buildings. The ban is not on the building of mosques, it's a purely architectural thing. I'm fairly sure you can have a mosque without a minaret. (At least, if the ones around here are anything to go by)

NTM

mcmoustache

People are forgetting something important here. Switzerland is a mainly Christian country and as such they are entitled to their bigotry:D.

dvpower

green123 wrote: »

people with such extreme different views should not mix.
it simply doesnt work.
it has never worked.

So, when are you leaving?

green123

there are lots of places in the world that they can build their minarets.

the majority of people in switzerland dont want them.

get the message

dr.bollocko

Manic Moran wrote: »

What were the reasons given for the rejections?

Minarets are somewhat against the aesthetic character which defines Switzerland. It'd be less of an issue in some locations than others. A minaret in a stereotypically picturesque Swiss mountain town is going to look particularly odd compared to one in South Central Zurich where it's in a range of a whole variety of buildings. The ban is not on the building of mosques, it's a purely architectural thing. I'm fairly sure you can have a mosque without a minaret. (At least, if the ones around here are anything to go by)

NTM

Do you really think that this nationwide referendum was based on an aesthetic choice? Do you think the shape of buildings made people vote against government recommendations or because they wanted to make a point? Because I think it was all about "muslims fuck off" and nothing to do with some buildings they didn't like the look of.
I could be wrong. Have been in the past. But I doubt their motivation has absolutely anything to do with them not liking the look of a minaret.

Voltex

Just speaking from experiance...I worked in Zurich for a time and worked with both Swiss and people from the immigrant community like Kosovan Muslims. TBH...the Kosovan Muslims were by and large very hardline...extremist and TBH very very scary guys (one guy even told me he would come to ireland and slit the troats of christan babies:eek:). I was warned by the Swiss that they were dangerous people..but i thought at the time it was a misuse of english...but the reality is that they are dangerous.

green123

dvpower wrote: »

So, when are you leaving?

like i said earlier , i think the majority of people in ireland would agree with me and if there was a vote we would get the same result as switzerland.

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Do you really think that this nationwide referendum was based on an aesthetic choice? Do you think the shape of buildings made people vote against government recommendations or because they wanted to make a point? Because I think it was all about "muslims fuck off" and nothing to do with some buildings they didn't like the look of.
I could be wrong. Have been in the past. But I doubt their motivation has absolutely anything to do with them not liking the look of a minaret.

i think that is exactly the message that it sends out, and i think that it is the message that they intended to send out

Voltex

I think Pat Condell puts it across in a very clever, non-hysterical way. True words...

JupiterKid

I fully agree with the Swiss decision. We have been capitulating to Islam in the West for too long. Enough is enough.

When you come to a country and live in it, you should respect their laws and customs. If you don't like these, then leave. Islam doesn't seem to be able to willingly co-exist with the West, they want everything their own way and it's time to say "enough"

It wasn't me!

Voltex wrote: »

I think Pat Condell puts it across in a very clever, non-hysterical way. True words...

"Beliefs often lifted wholesale from the ramblings of some ancient desert nomad with a psychological disorder"

BAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

HalloweenJack

When are the Christian spires being banned as well?

ascanbe

JupiterKid wrote: »

I fully agree with the Swiss decision. We have been capitulating to Islam in the West for too long. Enough is enough.

When you come to a country and live in it, you should respect their laws and customs. If you don't like these, then leave. Islam doesn't seem to be able to willingly co-exist with the West, they want everything their own way and it's time to say "enough"

The part of your post I've bolded is the only part I agree with; and the only part that should have any relevance in a civilized democracy.
What exactly are our 'customs'?
There was a grouping in Ireland, a religous grouping, who were hell bent on ensuring that people in this country adhered to their 'customs'; it wasn't the Muslims by the way.
Apart from the fact that this was wrong it has since come out that many of their 'customs' were unsavoury, to say the very least.
Funny that so many people posting here who profess to despise the intolerance of some Muslim countries seem to share the same mindset as the fundamentalists who hold sway in those countries.

Bigdeadlydave

green123 wrote: »

there are lots of places in the world that they can build their minarets.

the majority of people in switzerland dont want them.

get the message

Exactly. It seems that Muslims severly resist intergration into the societies where they now live(for what ever reason) and in many cases P.C leads to that particular society drasticly changing to accommodate them.

Bigdeadlydave

Voltex wrote: »

I think Pat Condell puts it across in a very clever, non-hysterical way. True words...

Pats an arsehole.

dvpower

JupiterKid wrote: »

I fully agree with the Swiss decision. We have been capitulating to Islam in the West for too long. Enough is enough.

How have the Swiss people been capitulating to Islam? Top 5 examples of capitulation would do fine.

JupiterKid wrote: »

When you come to a country and live in it, you should respect their laws and customs.

Building minarets is not contrary to the law in Switzerland (yet). Is it contrary to Swiss customs? Should they get rid of the Irish pubs and Italian restaurants too?

JupiterKid wrote: »

If you don't like these, then leave.

Would it be OK for Swiss Muslims to build minarets, in your view?