Denman or Kauto Star

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

when you re-read my posts and correct yourself, I'll continue my attempts to educate.

Your 1st line on this page says I honestly think kauto star was finishing best now go watch the race on your DVD and tell me how the horse who almost got pipped for 2nd is finishing best. Oh and I don't appreciate the smart comment

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Your 1st line on this page says I honestly think kauto star was finishing best now go watch the race on your DVD and tell me how the horse who almost got pipped for 2nd is finishing best. Oh and I don't appreciate the smart comment

I do think he was finishing best, and because he had a squeak he was thrown at the last, made a very bad mistake and was almost caught for second - the best position that he could possibly finish.

Again, Im not saying anything new or contradictory. Read the posts properly.

Morgans

mdwexford wrote: »

Ha call down to me and ill show you on the Racing Post website, i watched it the other night and Morgans is right in that Denman looked tired between the last two and Kauto had a tiny squeak but i think he picked up again a bit after the last and they werent really gaining.

That is fair enough. Kauto Star wasnt gaining after the last because of the mistake. I dont know if Denman picked up, he may have done. It is interesting that it was Ruby riding not Sam Thomas who picked up that he might improve for blinkers. Halcon Generlardais gained 25l on him in the straight I would think. I do realise that I am swimming against the tide on this but its definitely not as ridiculous a statement some think.

The fact that KS is even in with a squeak at the last is testament to his guts. Shouldnt have been next or near the places.

Morgans

premierstone wrote: »

Anyone who suggests that Kauto is more of a stayer than Denman should really think about a new hobby, maybe La Crosse or Badminton or the like :rolleyes: If it wasnt so redicilous it would be hilarious

Premierstone, your trash talk really needs some work. C-, must do better.

Rio 2016

Just wondering if anyone would agree with the suggestion that Denman was completely flattened by the time that they turned into the straight, due to the fact that the damage to his heart was done somewhere at the top of the hill or on the way down.

Whyno

1st Denman
(tracked leader, led 12th, hit 4 out, soon forged clear, stayed on well, ridden out)
2nd Kauto Star 7l
tracked leaders, not fluent 11th, 3rd when hit 13th, hit 4 out, soon ridden, went 2nd approaching 2 out, held when hit last, just held on for 2nd
3rd Neptune Collonges shd
jumped slightly right, led until 12th, chased winner, hit 4 out, soon ridden, lost 2nd and hit 2 out, stayed on again final 100 yards, just failed to regain 2nd
4th Halcon Genelardais
chased leaders, struggling 14th, soon lost place, stayed on again from 2 out

This is the race report as taken from the Atr website for the 2008 Gold Cup
No way in hell was Kauto staying on best. He was out on his feet going up the last 100 yards thus which is why he was being caught by Neptune Collonges. Denman was not stopping at any stage and couldve kept goin had the race been any longer and there wasnt a horse in that race to beat him that day.
Kauto well documented after the race just wasnt right that day. The ground was wrong and he jumped poorly and it was his class alone that got him round and enabled him to finish 2nd. No way on earth did ruby mind him and he beat the scutter outta him (excuse my language) and looking at the replay you will clearly see ruby hitting him alot after the last.
Kauto has pure class whereas Denman is a dour galloper and jumps for fun and loves a good battle and as we seen in the Betfair chase Kauto wont shy away from a fight either.
In the 09 GC due to his interupted season he was rode differently which greatly affected his chance thus turning for home only a length down but with Kautos superior finishing speed/turn of foot deciding the issue. The ground also aided Kauto more so than it would have Denman.
Fingers crossed this year we'll get the decider and thus we'll have an answer to who is the better.
I`m still in Kautos corner and always will be but am a big fan of Denman also and look forward to seeing this great spectacle one more time.

Morgans

I'm not impressed by all reviews, simply because they are on ATR or anywhere else. Not sure half the staff at ATR could pick one end of a horse from another. For instance, you'd swear Denman didnt tire coming to the last by that report. I'd only use race reports like this in races where no video is available.

Kauto Star has never been beaten due to stamina - never. Zero times. This includes over 3m2.5f at Cheltenham. Top class championship racehorses do not need to "stay" further. Ive no doubt that Kauto Star would win a Grade 1 over 4m if it existed. He'd sit and travel within a rhythm.

I dont know what you mean by "pure class". Does this mean that he has more speed than Denman? He certainly has two grade 1s over 2m in the locker. And it is pretty much universally agreed that he would outspeed Denman over a 2m gallop.

Does it mean that he can travel easily at Denman's top speed, but somehow would falter after Denman's supposedly superior stamina became an issue? Well, maybe, and its something that could happen in the future, but this isnt what happened on Denman's Gold Cup win and hasnt happened yet.

It was my opinion that Denman was absolutely knackered between the last two and while Im willing to accept he may have picked up from the last as mdwexford alluded to - it could be the adrenaline from the crowd that kicked in. He is a superstar animal. But it doesnt take away from the fact that before the mistake Kauto Star made, he was gaining on Denman. I really dont know how many times I've to say this. Once the mistake was made the whole circumstance of the race changed.

Whyno

Pure Class - ability to win grade 1 races from 2m - 3m 2f. Turn of foot at the end of any of these races, high cruising speed to match the best 2 milers. I could go on.

For the 2008 Gold cup Denman was in front on his own for well over 1.5miles. If there was anything about him being legless which in my opinion he wasnt i reckon he may have been getting lonely/idling in front and then when he turned for home with the other two horses gaining on him he picked up and ran away from them again.
We could debate this forever but none of us were riding denman nor Kauto star so dont have a clue about who had what in under them and just because we look back at the replay doesnt qualify any of us to decipher who was doing what. We are basing all thse points on opinion and at the end of the day we may all be wrong.
I do remember rubys interview after the race and he stated he was beaten turning out on the second circuit so it was a credit to Kauto for keeping going right to the finish.

Morgans

Sure 99% of posts are only opinion. Even to the extent that a jockey or trainer's view is only his opinion. However, it is best if you watch the race for yourself, and make up your mind for yourself, rather than relying on some "expert's" opinion.

Kauto Star was beaten in that race from the third or fourth fence, reminded me of Azertyuiop's run the year Moscow Flyer won his second QM. Never jumping, never travelling. However, he has never been beaten for stamina in any race. It shouldnt be underestimated. Neither has Denman, I just dont think its nearly as cut and dried as everyone seems to think.

Shane732

There are so many factors to take into account when considering this in relation to the 2010 Gold Cup. Will both horses get there 100% fit? Which will Ruby go for (I guess KS?). The trainer will have to be very careful how he uses Denman throughout the year - there is an unlying condition that may come into play. The ground is naturally a factor.

Having taken all that into account I think on his day Denman is simply the best horse around, the ability he possess is second to none. The way he can jump a fence is just amazing.

KS may have a quicker turn of foot but Denman's ability to gallop the competition into the ground is unrivaled.

I think I may love Denman!! :P