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Banning of minarets in Switzerland

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24567…19

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    #32
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Lame Lantern wrote: »
    Democracy does not mean that you can tell other people what to do as long as you do so in large enough numbers.

    Thats exactly what democracy is ? The will of the majority becomes law.

    Otherwise why bother holding elections?


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    #33
    Lame Lantern
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭Lame Lantern


    Zambia232 wrote: »
    Thats exactly what democracy is ? The will of the majority becomes law.

    Otherwise why bother holding elections?
    Constitutional democracies hold the enumeration of rights indivisible by any authority as their core value, not the whims of a large segment of society. While what you've said is true from a practical perspective, the employing of the democratic process to trample on the culture of a minority is utterly contrary to the democratic project. I declared the action philosophically bankrupt, not legally or by the letter of their political system.

    That democracy can be employed by the majority to revoke rights from a minority disgraces the tenets of equal protection and the agency of the individual from which constitutional democracy emerges.


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    #34
    Grand Fromage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭Grand Fromage


    The Swiss run their country their way. If people don't like it, they can go elsewhere. Many of these Muslims were given sanctuary during the Balkan war and were damn glad to get it. They should remember that.


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    #35
    994
    Closed Accounts Posts: 911 ✭✭✭994


    CamillaRhodes wrote: »
    Blanket bans on the use of symbols by a particular ethnic group is a very, very dangerous path to be going down.

    Religious group, you mean.
    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    One thing I do notice, is that people are rarely bothered by diversity when its within their own groups/social circles, but when its outside of it, even open minded people seem to become hostile.

    For that reason, I've come to the conclusion that its mostly fear.
    And I've found it more prevalent among women than men.

    It's difficult to be tolerant of diversity when one must tolerate a group which hates diversity. And maybe women should be more afraid- look at Malmo.


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    #36
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    jonny72 wrote: »
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8385069.stm

    I live in a muslim neighbourhood here on the continent, generally speaking its fairly calm, but there is a noticeable undercurrent of racial tension. Honestly speaking, integration is going backwards and immigration is turning into a big problem.
    Multiculturalism doesn't work.

    And maybe they want they're country to not look like down town Iran.............

    :cool:


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    #37
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    994 wrote: »
    Religious group, you mean.



    It's difficult to be tolerant of diversity when one must tolerate a group which hates diversity. And maybe women should be more afraid- look at Malmo.
    No ethnic, because no swis were ever muslims.
    Until? ............... the muslims came wippppyyyyyy


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    #38
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    grammar.jpg


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    #39
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    Multiculturalism doesn't work.

    And maybe they want they're country to not look like down town Iran.............

    :cool:

    To quote the BBC report: Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

    Some real idiocy at play in this thread.


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    #40
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    alastair wrote: »
    To quote the BBC report: Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

    Some real idiocy at play in this thread.

    Switzerland as of 2009 = 7 739 100 people
    4.3% of 7 739 100 = 332 781.3 people



    4.3% of the population are Muslim immigrants.
    Next time dish out insults to someone else!

    Immigration has brought Islam (4.3%, predominantly Kosovars, Bosniaks and Turks)


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    #41
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    4.3% of the population are Muslim immigrants.
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that some of that 4.3% must have been born in Switzerland.


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    #42
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that some of that 4.3% must have been born in Switzerland.
    I'd say your correct in that people have sex in foreign countries.What point are you trying to make exactly?


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    #43
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    I'd say your correct in that people have sex in foreign countries.What point are you trying to make exactly?
    That a Muslim in Switzerland is not necessarily an immigrant?


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    #44
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    djpbarry wrote: »
    That a Muslim in Switzerland is not necessarily an immigrant?
    A muslim ? I'm talking 4000,000, your talking for the sake of an argument.


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    #45
    Clanrickard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭Clanrickard


    What should also be noticed is that more women than men voted for the ban. I wonder why women would be afraid of Islam? hmmmmmmmmmmm..............


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    #46
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    4.3% of the population are Muslim immigrants.
    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    A muslim ? I'm talking 4000,000, your talking for the sake of an argument.
    I'm unclear as to who exactly is talking "for the sake of an argument".

    You said (as I have quoted above) that 4.3% of the Swiss population are Muslim immigrants. Do you have a source for this? Did you meant that 4.3% are Muslim, and assumed that none of them are Swiss (i.e., all of them are immigrants)?

    If you want a serious discussion, be clear in what you're saying and be prepared to discuss it in a civil manner.


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    #47
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    To bring this thread down to a more factual level:
    Switzerland did not ban Islam, nor did it ban mosks or prayer houses or islamic worship.
    They did ban the building of structures that are positively alien to local custom and architecture. Banning them outright, instead of through the back door of planning laws.

    (I would suspect that they did it that way because planning laws weren't written with minaretts specifically in mind)

    There is another issue that piggy-backs with a minarett and that is the call to prayer. The sole purpose of a minarett is that the muezzin goes up there five times a day to praise Allah and call his congreation to prayer.

    I for one can understand (and do support the idea) that Swiss people are not in favour of being woken by amplified calls of "Allah u Akhbar" at sunrise.
    (It's cowbells and church bells they are used to and want to stick with)

    The Swiss drew a line in the sand, rather than wrangling with individual mosks about whether or not they could have a minarett and/or a muezzin.

    Yes ..this could be qualified as intolerant ...but so could the insistance of muslims to build a minarett and call to prayer in the middle of a Swiss village.


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    #48
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Clanrickard wrote: »
    What should also be noticed is that more women than men voted for the ban. I wonder why women would be afraid of Islam? hmmmmmmmmmmm..............
    I take it we can add islamophobia to the list of Amhrán Nua's policies, so?


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    #49
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    peasant wrote: »
    Yes ..this could be qualified as intolerant ...but so could the insistance of muslims to build a minarett and call to prayer in the middle of a Swiss village.
    How many minarets have been built in Swiss villages?


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    #50
    CamillaRhodes
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭CamillaRhodes


    Wow. Just, wow. Never spent much time in the Politics forum before. Don't think I'll be doing so again. Good luck, y'all.


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    #51
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm unclear as to who exactly is talking "for the sake of an argument".

    You said (as I have quoted above) that 4.3% of the Swiss population are Muslim immigrants. Do you have a source for this? Did you meant that 4.3% are Muslim, and assumed that none of them are Swiss (i.e., all of them are immigrants)?

    If you want a serious discussion, be clear in what you're saying and be prepared to discuss it in a civil manner.

    Immigration has brought Islam (4.3%, predominantly Kosovars, Bosniaks and Turks)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland#Religion
    Second paragraph.

    As I said foreigners like to have sex and then comes children...


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    #52
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    Immigration has brought Islam (4.3%, predominantly Kosovars, Bosniaks and Turks)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland#Religion
    Second paragraph.

    As I said foreigners like to have sex and then comes children...
    ...and those children are "foreigners", as are their children, and theirs...?

    After how many generations of being born in Switzerland do they become Swiss? Or are they "foreigners" by definition, because they are Muslim?


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    #53
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...and those children are "foreigners", as are their children, and theirs...?

    After how many generations of being born in Switzerland do they become Swiss? Or are they "foreigners" by definition, because they are Muslim?

    answers:

    see here http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/immigration/citizenship/index.html


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    #54
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    peasant wrote: »
    There is another issue that piggy-backs with a minarett and that is the call to prayer. The sole purpose of a minarett is that the muezzin goes up there five times a day to praise Allah and call his congreation to prayer.

    I for one can understand (and do support the idea) that Swiss people are not in favour of being woken by amplified calls of "Allah u Akhbar" at sunrise.
    (It's cowbells and church bells they are used to and want to stick with)

    The Swiss drew a line in the sand, rather than wrangling with individual mosks about whether or not they could have a minarett and/or a muezzin.

    All well and good, but none of the four (count em) minarets in Switzerland broadcast the muezzin - it's not allowed in that country. The minarets are simply (silent) towers on mosques. The nonsense that banning those new minarets that were seeking planning permission is going to undermine radical islam is pretty obvious - the core mosque at issue is a Turkish one - not a nation known for their radical religious beliefs. Most of the muslims in Switzerland come from nations with a pretty tepid angle on their religion. And the party stirring this whole issue up are the Swiss equivalent of UKIP - equal opportunity xenophobes.


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    #55
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    How many minarets have been built in Swiss villages?

    None so far, as I'm aware, they have only got four in towns.
    (which might be the reason for the total ban as there are four cases of precedence which make denial of planning all the more complicated)

    you have to admit though ...the minaretts just look cack and totally out of context (below links to mosks in Olten and Zurich)

    800px-Moschee_Wangen_bei_Olten.jpg

    zuerich-moschee.jpg


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    #56
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭donaghs


    CamillaRhodes wrote: »
    I'm really shocked by this. Switzerland was always meant to be a state which promoted neutrality - this grossly discriminatory decision illustrates that neutral positions towards religious freedoms are becoming eclipsed by rightwing agendas (and let's be honest, when we say 'religious freedoms' it's usually christian vs muslim agendas).

    The question of immigration and integration is hugely complex and I don't mean to disagree directly with the posters above. But this decision in Switzerland says a lot about the erosion of the moral high ground which many western liberal thinkers have held until now. With the BNP on the rise in the UK, I wonder how long will it take for us Irish (who have never been particularly keen on non-white/christian immigrants, even during the boom years) to start deeper forays into far right politics, like the Swiss?

    You may be confusing Swiss neutrality with the more docile Irish variety. The Swiss have always been ready to defend their neutrality, hence the huge modern conscript armed forces. Also, Swiss soldiers keep their personal weapons at home; Swiss homes, apartment blocks, office must have a bomb/radiation shelter; and key bridges and tunnels are constructed with emplacements for explosive-mines & tank traps.

    The Swiss are quite a insular looking people. They'd always felt threatened by their larger 3 (previously 4) neighbours. Internationally speaking, they like to keep to themselves are only relatively recently have joined a few organisations like the UN. The Swiss also have some of the strictest immigration laws. They permit lots of foreign people to work in Switzerland (and have taken in many refugees), but no-one has an automatic right to citizenship, even children born of foreigners in Switzerland.

    There's a few things I don't like about Switzerland, and this minarets things reflects that insular-ness. But I think its still a very democratic country with a high degree of tolerance and freedom. An interesting comparison is Quebec's "intraculturalism".


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    #57
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...and those children are "foreigners", as are their children, and theirs...?

    After how many generations of being born in Switzerland do they become Swiss? Or are they "foreigners" by definition, because they are Muslim?

    What part of 400,000 immigrants don't you understand.


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    #58
    Lame Lantern
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭Lame Lantern


    peasant wrote: »
    To bring this thread down to a more factual level:
    Switzerland did not ban Islam, nor did it ban mosks or prayer houses or islamic worship.
    They did ban the building of structures that are positively alien to local custom and architecture. Banning them outright, instead of through the back door of planning laws.
    Doing it by means of legislation or planning laws would have made sense if we were to follow your logic. This was a national referendum executed for no practical reason, intended only to demonise a minority for the sake of disgraceful, sectarian political gain. No rhetoric leading into the election involved discussing the disruption of Swiss small-town panoramas. It was a poll designed to legitimise the arbitrary contempt of Islam in a nation of rampant racism (not directed solely at the Muslim population) and to rally the misguided anti-immigration vote.


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    #59
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    What part of 400,000 immigrants don't you understand.
    An immigrant is someone who has moved from another country. Someone born in Switzerland is not, by definition, an immigrant to Switzerland.

    Are you claiming that no Muslims have ever been born in Switzerland? Or are you claiming that being Muslim automatically classes you as an immigrant?


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    #60
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    What part of 400,000 immigrants don't you understand.

    Did your ancestors grow out of the soil?


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    #61
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    The Swiss run their country their way. If people don't like it, they can go elsewhere. Many of these Muslims were given sanctuary during the Balkan war and were damn glad to get it. They should remember that.

    A big +1 to that sentiment,and thus far they appear to have done a reasonably good job of it too.

    It`s refreshing to see the native Irish begrudgery for OTHER countries self-governance in full flight as we continue to prove our own lack of ability in this area......

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/outcry-over-councils-83643m-bill-to-house-six-traveller-families-1958626.html

    To answer Oscar Bravo`s question,
    How many minarets have been built in Swiss villages?
    .

    I`d imagine a hell of a lot less than the above !


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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