Banning of minarets in Switzerland

Flamed Diving · 30-11-2009 12:49pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

A big +1 to that sentiment,and thus far they appear to have done a reasonably good job of it too.

It`s refreshing to see the native Irish begrudgery for OTHER countries self-governance in full flight as we continue to prove our own lack of ability in this area......

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/outcry-over-councils-83643m-bill-to-house-six-traveller-families-1958626.html

To answer Oscar Bravo`s question,.

I`d imagine a hell of a lot less than the above !

Irish council housing Irish families.

How... relevant.

Euro_Kraut · 30-11-2009 12:54pm

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

What part of 400,000 immigrants don't you understand.

How many of Muslim population living in Switzerland do not have Swiss citizenship?

Having lived on the Swiss/Austrian boarder I can tell you that a high number of second generation Turks live in the region. They have been born and raised in the region and are not immgrants.

On the wider issue, people need to realise that this vote was an attempt by a far right party to stoke populist fears against Islam. Planning Depts of local councils had the right to refuse premission of these buildings on a case by case basis. Very few were ever approved.

It has been pointed out that many Islamic Nations are intolerant of Christains churches. This is true. Its a shame though that a Western nation is holding itself to the same standards as a nutcase regime in Saudi Arabia.

Flamed Diving · 30-11-2009 12:56pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Its a shame though that a Western nation is holding itself to the same standards as a nutcase regime in Saudi Arabia.

Precisely. As are people in this thread, for that matter.

AlekSmart · 30-11-2009 1:06pm

Originally Posted by Euro_Kraut
Its a shame though that a Western nation is holding itself to the same standards as a nutcase regime in Saudi Arabia.

I rather suspect that the Swiss electorate (Is Voting compulsory there ?) are bright enough to see little comparison with the Internal Affairs of the Kingdom of SA.

It`s somewhat unsettling,however,to observe just how great an influence this "Nutcase Regieme" exercises over the developed "Liberal",Tolerant" Western World.......Oh well...that`s life I suppose ?

geuro · 30-11-2009 1:07pm

Somebody posted some pictures of Swiss minarets above, commenting that "the minaretts just look cack and totally out of context ".

They don't look cack. And they aren't out of context. They look like symbols of a place of worship and I don't find them aesthetically offensive. They are not out of context for the worshippers that attend those mosques as their places of prayer.

If it were the case that everyone in town was "being woken by amplified calls of "Allah u Akhbar" at sunrise", as another poster suggested, well then I could understand how it could be a problem. But this isn't the case, these are silent structures, symbols of the faith to which a significant proportion of the local population subscribe.

Flamed Diving · 30-11-2009 1:07pm

When is the Youtube video coming?

Euro_Kraut · 30-11-2009 1:11pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Is Voting compulsory there ?

No. Turnout was just above 50%.

Roro4Brit · 30-11-2009 1:24pm

I'm still torn on this subject. I need to think more about it.

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 1:38pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

An immigrant is someone who has moved from another country. Someone born in Switzerland is not, by definition, an immigrant to Switzerland.

Are you claiming that no Muslims have ever been born in Switzerland? Or are you claiming that being Muslim automatically classes you as an immigrant?

Very good.
I'm saying for the third or fourth time that, 400,000 Immigrants are immigrants. Understand?
If your born in a country your not an immigrant are you? .....duh?

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 1:40pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

How many of Muslim population living in Switzerland do not have Swiss citizenship?

Having lived on the Swiss/Austrian boarder I can tell you that a high number of second generation Turks live in the region. They have been born and raised in the region and are not immgrants.

On the wider issue, people need to realise that this vote was an attempt by a far right party to stoke populist fears against Islam. Planning Depts of local councils had the right to refuse premission of these buildings on a case by case basis. Very few were ever approved.

It has been pointed out that many Islamic Nations are intolerant of Christains churches. This is true. Its a shame though that a Western nation is holding itself to the same standards as a nutcase regime in Saudi Arabia.

Immigrants; do you require a definition of the word?

oscarBravo · 30-11-2009 1:44pm

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Very good.
I'm saying for the third or fourth time that, 400,000 Immigrants are immigrants. Understand?
If your born in a country your not an immigrant are you? .....duh?

To date, the evidence you have adduced for this claim is a Wikipedia article describing 4.3% of the Swiss population as Muslim, and ascribing this fact to immigration.

If you think this constitutes proof that every Muslim in Switzerland is an immigrant, then I can't argue the topic further with you.

alastair · 30-11-2009 1:49pm

Let me guess - the four minarets acted as some sort of devious portal for immigrants to enter Switzerland? Clearly now that the planning permission refusal for a fifth has been rubber-stamped with a national ban, that whole johnny foreigner in our midst problem will go away.

Euro_Kraut · 30-11-2009 2:08pm

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Immigrants; do you require a definition of the word?

No. But I think you do.

Plenty of Muslims in Switzerland, just like in Germany and Austria were born there.

stop · 30-11-2009 2:12pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

No. But I think you do.

Plenty of Muslims in Switzerland, just like in Germany and Austria were born there.

Doesn't make them Swiss..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_nationality_law#Birth

AlekSmart · 30-11-2009 2:16pm

Let me guess - the four minarets acted as some sort of devious portal for immigrants to enter Switzerland? Clearly now that the planning permission refusal for a fifth has been rubber-stamped with a national ban, that whole johnny foreigner in our midst problem will go away.

A big fuss over nuttin perhaps.....over here a bit of an oul Section 4 would have sorted them lads out...:)

Euro_Kraut · 30-11-2009 2:20pm

stop wrote: »

Doesn't make them Swiss..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_nationality_law#Birth

Doesn't make them immgrants though. That is the point one poster seem to be deliberaty missing.

Executive Steve · 30-11-2009 2:24pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

One could argue that minarets are quite out of place in many western countries any way from a planning perspective at least.

How would you go about arguing that though?

The last time a middle eastern religion was this popular in Europe it resulted in it's adherents building loads of buildings with big pointy towers that had these huge brass bells in them to call the faithful to prayer and to chime the hour; how is it any different that this time the big towers have a loudspeaker in them to call the faithful to prayer and to chime the hour?

dan_d · 30-11-2009 2:31pm

Hmm.Interesting.
Switzerland is THE central country in Europe. Yet it has made itself a neutral and KEPT that over the years. A very tricky thing to do, given it's geographical location. If you visit Switzerland you find they all speak at least 2 languages fluently, and a third, sometimes a fourth, very well, which would indicate that they are actually quite open to other nationalities.
Personally I'd look at it as follows. The Swiss and the Austrians have extremely strict laws governing construction and ensuring that ALL buildings built are in keeping with the character of the locality.Minarets are - not. Call it what you like, but they are entitled to pass this ban, as otherwise it's essentially breaking their country's laws.
Also if you were in a Muslim country and you didn't abide by their laws, you'd find out about it fairly damn quickly. And it wouldn't be in a polite "let's have a referendum about it" way either.

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 2:33pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

To date, the evidence you have adduced for this claim is a Wikipedia article describing 4.3% of the Swiss population as Muslim, and ascribing this fact to immigration.

If you think this constitutes proof that every Muslim in Switzerland is an immigrant, then I can't argue the topic further with you.

I said 4.3% are muslim immigrants.I can't make it any more simplified for you to grasp.
Feel free to keep arguing the definition of immigrants.

Lemming · 30-11-2009 2:49pm

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Switzerland as of 2009 = 7 739 100 people
4.3% of 7 739 100 = 332 781.3 people

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

I said 4.3% are muslim immigrants.I can't make it any more simplified for you to grasp.
Feel free to keep arguing the definition of immigrants.

Apologies folks. First of all, I'm going to call "Troll".

Secondly (and yes I acknowledge feeding the troll); of that 332 781.3 people (which isn't 400,000 but by your own calculations 332,781.3);

how many were born in Switzerland?
How many hold Swiss citizenship?
How many actually were born elsewhere?
How many actually hold citizenship from another country?

Simple enough to grasp?

I suspect the breakdown will reduce the number of immigrants significantly from 332,781.3 ... which we all know is less than 400,000 anyway. Saying that all muslims in Switzerland are immigrants because of their religion is both exceptionally dishonest argument and not to put it bluntly, out-and-out racist.

dvpower · 30-11-2009 2:54pm

dan_d wrote: »

Hmm.Interesting.
Switzerland is THE central country in Europe.

Ya wha?

dan_d wrote: »

Personally I'd look at it as follows. The Swiss and the Austrians have extremely strict laws governing construction and ensuring that ALL buildings built are in keeping with the character of the locality.

Em, Ok. So no need for a referendum then, right?

dan_d wrote: »

Minarets are - not. Call it what you like, but they are entitled to pass this ban, as otherwise it's essentially breaking their country's laws.

Oh dear.

Nodin · 30-11-2009 3:11pm

Clanrickard wrote: »

A great day for democracy. If you want to see shameful sectarianism countries with Sharia law are the place to go.

So because Saudi Arabia and (say) Iran are inolerant states, all others should emulate them?

Your definition of democracy (and a few others) seems to pertain to the 'mob rule' variety.

dvpower · 30-11-2009 3:14pm

peasant wrote: »

To bring this thread down to a more factual level:

Ok. Will this include many facts?

peasant wrote: »

Switzerland did not ban Islam, nor did it ban mosks or prayer houses or islamic worship.
They did ban the building of structures that are positively alien to local custom and architecture. Banning them outright, instead of through the back door of planning laws.

(I would suspect that they did it that way because planning laws weren't written with minaretts specifically in mind)

Why do you suspect this? The SVP, Switzerland's largest party, who proposed the referendum have said:

Martin Baltisser, SVP general secretary wrote:

"This was a vote against minarets as symbols of Islamic power."

peasant wrote: »

There is another issue that piggy-backs with a minarett and that is the call to prayer. The sole purpose of a minarett is that the muezzin goes up there five times a day to praise Allah and call his congreation to prayer.

I for one can understand (and do support the idea) that Swiss people are not in favour of being woken by amplified calls of "Allah u Akhbar" at sunrise.

This referendum didn't ban a call to prayer. The existing minarets are not allowed to broadcast the call to prayer.

peasant wrote: »

The Swiss drew a line in the sand, rather than wrangling with individual mosks about whether or not they could have a minarett and/or a muezzin.

Yes ..this could be qualified as intolerant ...but so could the insistance of muslims to build a minarett and call to prayer in the middle of a Swiss village.

Line in the sand, my arse. The Swiss didn't have the bottle to draw any line in the sand, so they passed this vindictive law instead.

the_syco · 30-11-2009 3:23pm

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

I said 4.3% are muslim immigrants.I can't make it any more simplified for you to grasp.
Feel free to keep arguing the definition of immigrants.

I'm finding it hard to find where you got this 4.3% bit.

geuro · 30-11-2009 3:32pm

the_syco wrote: »

I'm finding it hard to find where you got this 4.3% bit.

This link says 4.5%:

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Switzerland-RELIGIONS.html

Any other wiki entry or internet source i found is the same ballpark..

Flamed Diving · 30-11-2009 3:38pm

Does anyone here know the difference between a Muslim and an immigrant?

HINT: They are not always the same.

:rolleyes:

Mr.Micro · 30-11-2009 3:49pm

[cm]tyranny wrote: »

How would you go about arguing that though?

The last time a middle eastern religion was this popular in Europe it resulted in it's adherents building loads of buildings with big pointy towers that had these huge brass bells in them to call the faithful to prayer and to chime the hour; how is it any different that this time the big towers have a loudspeaker in them to call the faithful to prayer and to chime the hour?

In 2009 the democratic majority of the Swiss do not want them and have voted so. The pointy towers with the brass bells came first when there was nothing else, and are still there, so clearly the Swiss are not willing to share the skyline with minarets when the pointy towers with the brass bells have had it to themselves for centuries.

the_syco · 30-11-2009 4:11pm

geuro wrote: »

This link says 4.5%:

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Switzerland-RELIGIONS.html

Any other wiki entry or internet source i found is the same ballpark..

So, from 4.3% to 4.5%. Wiki's are not that reliable, it would seem?

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

4.3% of the population are Muslim immigrants.

Actually, the site says 4.3 of the population is Muslim. As many people are converting to Muslim (it's a fast expanding religion), some of that 4.3% would be already Swiss. For example, here's an article about 30,000 women have converted to the Muslim religion. Thus these 30,00 Swiss Muslim wouldn't be Muslim immigrants.They would be just 30,000 Muslims.

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 4:15pm

Lemming wrote: »

Apologies folks. First of all, I'm going to call "Troll".

Secondly (and yes I acknowledge feeding the troll); of that 332 781.3 people (which isn't 400,000 but by your own calculations 332,781.3);
how many were born in Switzerland?

How many hold Swiss citizenship?

How many actually were born elsewhere?

How many actually hold citizenship from another country?

Simple enough to grasp?

I suspect the breakdown will reduce the number of immigrants significantly from 332,781.3 ... which we all know is less than 400,000 anyway. Saying that all muslims in Switzerland are immigrants because of their religion is both exceptionally dishonest argument and not to put it bluntly, out-and-out racist.

I'm going to call troll on you as well.

In 2000, foreigners from non-EU/EFTA countries accounted for the "MAJORITY" of Switzerland's Muslims, Orthodox Christians, and Hindus. By far the largest of these religions was Islam: about 311,000 residents of Switzerland were Muslim in 2000, or 4.3 percent of the country's total population at the time, according to the Swiss Federal Statistical Office.

If you want to nit pick go ahead- that's not one of my hobbies.Your not doing yourself any favours.

djpbarry · 30-11-2009 4:16pm

dan_d wrote: »

Also if you were in a Muslim country and you didn't abide by their laws, you'd...

...probably be arrested. As you would be in a Christian/Western country.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The pointy towers with the brass bells came first when there was nothing else, and are still there, so clearly the Swiss are not willing to share the skyline with minarets when the pointy towers with the brass bells have had it to themselves for centuries.

Integration is a two-way street. The sensible approach would have been to examine the possibility of adapting the minarets to the local surroundings in each individual case. Of course, I’m assuming there that this referendum was purely about architecture...

Banning of minarets in Switzerland

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