Banning of minarets in Switzerland

oscarBravo

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

I said 4.3% are muslim immigrants.I can't make it any more simplified for you to grasp.
Feel free to keep arguing the definition of immigrants.

Yes, you keep saying it, but - contrary to popular belief - repeating something often enough won't magically make it true.

I'm prepared to accept that 4.3% of the population of Switzerland are Muslim. I'm even prepared to accept that a substantial percentage of that percentage are are immigrants.

What I'm not prepared to accept without further evidence is a claim that every Muslim in Switzerland is an immigrant. If you continue to push this line without offering any evidence, I will conclude that you are trolling - and that's a call I can make, as forum moderator - and take action accordingly. You have been warned.

imstrongerthanu

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes, you keep saying it, but - contrary to popular belief - repeating something often enough won't magically make it true.

I'm prepared to accept that 4.3% of the population of Switzerland are Muslim. I'm even prepared to accept that a substantial percentage of that percentage are are immigrants.

What I'm not prepared to accept without further evidence is a claim that every Muslim in Switzerland is an immigrant. If you continue to push this line without offering any evidence, I will conclude that you are trolling - and that's a call I can make, as forum moderator - and take action accordingly. You have been warned.

Show me where I said that all Swiss Muslims are immigrants.

Flamed Diving

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Switzerland as of 2009 = 7 739 100 people
4.3% of 7 739 100 = 332 781.3 people



4.3% of the population are Muslim immigrants.
Next time dish out insults to someone else!

Immigration has brought Islam (4.3%, predominantly Kosovars, Bosniaks and Turks)

According to the Confederate census of 2001, a total number of 310,807 Muslims were living in Switzerland which made up 4.26% of the total population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Switzerland

?

peasant

Just on a side note:
Switzerland isn't, never was and probably never will be a particularly tolerant country.
When it comes to upholding their particular understandings of neutrality, tradition and peculiar federal democracy one could even almost go as far as to call them fundamentalist.

That's the way they have always been.

We "tolerant nations" apparently have no problem in accepting that some muslim countries are more fundamentalist than others ...what's the big deal about accepting a fundamentalist European country?

Who exactly is being intolerant here? The Swiss sticking up for their way of life or all the other countries deriding them for it?


(Having said that, personally I wouldn't want to have to live in Switzerland either, particularly not as a foreigner and especially not as a muslim)

Flamed Diving

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

What part of 400,000 immigrants don't you understand.

I don't know...

ChocolateSauce

This is a prime example of why democracy must be limited. Mob rule in Switzerland has infringed on the right to expression and the right to religion.

I don't think for a second that this anti-freedom decision will stand- a court will rightly overturn it.

The way to fight Islam isn't by banning it (that just lowers those who ban it to the level of Arabia or Afghanistan) or its symbols, but by speaking out against it, and by ensuring Muslims aren't excluded or marginalised in our countries.

peasant

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Mob rule in Switzerland has infringed on the right to expression and the right to religion.

They banned Islam?
Boycott Toblerone !

Lemming

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

I'm going to call troll on you as well.

In 2000, foreigners from non-EU/EFTA countries accounted for the "MAJORITY" of Switzerland's Muslims, Orthodox Christians, and Hindus. By far the largest of these religions was Islam: about 311,000 residents of Switzerland were Muslim in 2000, or 4.3 percent of the country's total population at the time, according to the Swiss Federal Statistical Office.

You are still assuming that that 311,000 - which is clearly less than the outcries of 400,000 you made earlier - are all

• Immigrants (born elsewhere)
• Immigrants (holding citizenship elsewhere)
• That EU citizens cannot be muslim
• That 311,000 (clearly less than 400,000) Muslim residents are ALL immigrants.

Now, I'm sure that the largest religious demographic among non-nationals (either EU or otherwise) could well be muslim, but you are reading into the statistics wrong. What you have written above states that 311,000 people residing inside the Swiss borders are of the muslim faith. It says nothing about immigrant numbers.

oscarBravo

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Show me where I said that all Swiss Muslims are immigrants.

OK, since you're determined to post like a four-year-old, I'll explain this like you're four years old.

As you yourself have pointed out, 4.3% of the Swiss population is Muslim.

4.3% of the population of Switzerland is a little over 330,000. We'll use your version of maths, and round that up to 400,000.

Therefore, there are 400,000 Muslims in Switzerland.

So, when you ask the question:

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

What part of 400,000 immigrants don't you understand.

(your emphasis), you are conflating immigrants with Muslims.

If I've misunderstood your point somewhere along the way, please feel free to explain - from first principles - what your point is, and what exactly immigrants have got to do with a thread about a referendum on minarets.

Alternatively, if you don't plan to make an intelligent contribution to the thread, please feel free to not bother posting at all.

Sand

The way to fight Islam isn't by banning it (that just lowers those who ban it to the level of Arabia or Afghanistan) or its symbols, but by speaking out against it, and by ensuring Muslims aren't excluded or marginalised in our countries.

Sorry youre talking about Islam like it was Neo-Nazism? Are we fighting it? Why?

The Swiss result did not ban Islam, it didnt ban religious freedoms. It just banned the freedom to build minarets. In itself its fairly .... meh. More important for how it signals a deeper issue, a rejection of multiculturalism. Especially given the vote was strongest amongst women, not exactly the typical neo-nazi heartland.

I also think its a mistake to confuse immigration issues with religious issues. It only offers space for religious groups to claim leadership roles, replacing the standard citizen-state relationship with some sort of middle man, which has its own agenda and can often be hostile to integration.

imstrongerthanu

alastair wrote: »

To quote the BBC report: Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

Some real idiocy at play in this thread.

I used his number of 400,000.It seemed a wise number to use at the time for various reasons;one of them reasons being, comprehension, and the other for keeping nitpickers on their toes.

Switzerland as of 2009 = 7 739 100 people
4.3% of 7 739 100 = 332 781.3 people

Immigration has brought Islam (4.3%, predominantly Kosovars, Bosniaks and Turks)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Switzerland

I realise now where I went astray.I should have known better,never assumed I'd get away without dotting that I.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm unclear as to who exactly is talking "for the sake of an argument".

You said (as I have quoted above) that 4.3% of the Swiss population are Muslim immigrants. Do you have a source for this? Did you meant that 4.3% are Muslim, and assumed that none of them are Swiss (i.e., all of them are immigrants)?

If you want a serious discussion, be clear in what you're saying and be prepared to discuss it in a civil manner.

Nothing factually wrong
See above.

oscarBravo wrote: »

...and those children are "foreigners", as are their children, and theirs...?

After how many generations of being born in Switzerland do they become Swiss? Or are they "foreigners" by definition, because they are Muslim?

CitizenshipNaturalization

Swiss citizenship can be acquired through what is called naturalization.
To become naturalized, you need to have resided in Switzerland for at least twelve years, three of which occurred within the five years prior to the request. Time spent in Switzerland between the ages of 10 and 20 years counts double.


Phase one: federal authorization
The request is to be made to the Aliens Police in the municipality of residence. From there, it will then be sent to the Federal Department of Justice and Police, who will give a principle authorization if the following conditions are met:

• You are integrated in the Swiss community.
• You are accustomed to Swiss way of life and practices.
• You comply with the Swiss legal system.
• You in no way compromise the internal or external security of Switzerland.

Since Switzerland is a federal country, authorization must then be obtained from the canton and the municipality.

Phase two: cantonal and municipal decisions
The canton and municipality of residence can add further conditions and set the cost of acquiring citizenship before approving it. Conditions vary greatly from one region to the next. Some municipalities apply rather open policies, while others will go as far as granting nationality by means of a local population vote. Cost also varies according to municipality and canton.


Now here's were I mature from 4 years old all the ways up past you and reach 20.


In 2000, foreigners from non-EU/EFTA countries accounted for the majority of Switzerland's Muslims, Orthodox Christians, and Hindus (see Table 2).
By far the largest of these religions was Islam: about 311,000 residents of Switzerland were Muslim in 2000, or 4.3 percent of the country's total population at the time.


About 18 percent of all foreign nationals were Muslim in 2000, but "nearly" all Muslims — 88.3 percent — were foreigners in 2000. Among foreign-national Muslims, 56.4 percent came from the former Yugoslavia and 20.2 percent from Turkey. Foreign nationals made up 78.1 percent of the 131,900 Orthodox Christians (mainly from the former Yugoslavia) and 92.5 percent of the 27,800 Hindus (overwhelmingly from Sri Lanka).

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?ID=731


Muslim population: 310,800 (4.2%)


Sources: Total population - Swiss Federal Statistical Office, 2003 figures; Muslim population - Swiss Federal Statistical Office, 2000 figures.


In 2000 11.7% of 311 000 = 36 387
So in the year 2000 there was 36,387 Swiss Muslims.

In 2009 about 400,000, or roughly 5%, of Swiss residents are Muslim.How many are Swiss citizens?

80,00 Swiss citizens?

So
1% of 7 739 100 = 77 391

So Muslim "citizens" account for "ABOUT" 1% of the Swiss population.

bonkey

This whole "immigrant" side-issue reminds me of the run-up to the referendum itself.

People were more interested in discussing a side-issue then as well, rather then the question being raised by the referendum. Then, it was the controversial nature of the ad-campaign for the Yes vote....here, its the controversial nature of the "immigrant" comment.

The result was a bit of a surprise, to be honest. Every survey and opinion before the vote showed it being solidly and clearly rejected. Ironically, this has led to a bit of a problem for the Swiss, in that they now have to figure out how to enshrine this decision in law.

baalthor

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

So Muslim "citizens" account for "ABOUT" 1% of the Swiss population.

Why are you putting citizens in quotes?

Are you implying that a Muslim cannot really be a Swiss citizen even if they meet all the requirements for citizenship?

prinz

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

This is a prime example of why democracy must be limited. Mob rule in Switzerland has infringed on the right to expression and the right to religion.

Minarets are not a requirement of a mosque. The Swiss have banned further minarets, not mosques. People are still free to believe and practice whatever they wish.

I am also curious as to why you would describe it as "mob rule". If the vote had gone the other way would you call it "mob rule"?

As for the right of expression, yes a case could be made there, with respect to art/architecture. However as with many places in continental Europe, planning and design standards are codified by law. Thus if one county or area enacts a law forcing everyone who builds a new house in that area to subscribe to certain conditions (colour roof tiles being a common one) I am not sure that could be challenged under freedom of expression.

Flamed Diving

baalthor wrote: »

Why are you putting citizens in quotes?

Are you implying that a Muslim cannot really be a Swiss citizen even if they meet all the requirements for citizenship?

Even more confusing. Why was about in quotes?

Flamed Diving

Swiss minaret ban 'security risk'
A decision by Swiss voters to ban the construction of minarets poses a risk to Switzerland's security, the country's foreign minister says.

Micheline Calmy-Rey said the Swiss government was "very concerned" about the ban, adopted by voters on Sunday.

"Each limitation on the co-existence of different cultures and religions also endangers our security," she told the European security body, the OSCE.

A top UN official has called the ban "clearly discriminatory".

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/in_depth/8388793.stm

Published: 2009/12/01 14:28:09 GMT

© BBC MMIX

They are hardly going to overturn a democratic vote, are they? Will they re-run the vote? Maybe make the ban so vague that minarets are still allowed under certain circumstances?

prinz

Flamed Diving wrote: »

They are hardly going to overturn a democratic vote, are they? Will they re-run the vote? Maybe make the ban so vague that minarets are still allowed under certain circumstances?

I'm sure they can re-run it before long.

Zombrex

Sand wrote: »

The Swiss result did not ban Islam, it didnt ban religious freedoms. It just banned the freedom to build minarets. In itself its fairly .... meh. More important for how it signals a deeper issue, a rejection of multiculturalism.

Which is what the referendum was really about (the building of minarets was already covered under Swiss planning permission rules). The pro-referendum parties didn't hide this, they were clear that they were worried about the growth of Islam in Switzerland with the idea that this would eventually lead to calls to adopt Sharia law.

The opposition pointed out that this was some what of a baseless concern since most Muslims in Switzerland were from secular Turkey and were used to living in a country that divided religion and law.

bonkey

Flamed Diving wrote: »

They are hardly going to overturn a democratic vote, are they? Will they re-run the vote? Maybe make the ban so vague that minarets are still allowed under certain circumstances?

No, they won't overturn it. They may drag their heels, but there's no possibility to just ignore the decision.

Yes, there may well be follow-up referenda, with the effect of nullifying or reversing this decision. Its quite common to see issues revisited over time here.

Yes, they may also seek to implement some sort of "compromise law", which would hold up in court as having fulfilled the referendum requirements and still allow minarets in certain circumstances. If they do, this may - in turn - lead to further referenda on the issue.

bonkey

Wicknight wrote: »

Which is what the referendum was really about

I wouldn't agree that the decision is - as Sand suggested - a rejection of multiculturalism, or any sort of a sign thereof.

It is, at best/worst, a sign of a dislike/fear/rejection of Islam.

the_syco

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Immigration has brought Islam (4.3%, predominantly Kosovars, Bosniaks and Turks)

And from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Switzerland

Immigration has brought Islam (4.26% as of 2000, compared to 0.26% in 1970)

which means Immigration has brought Islam, and that 4.26% of the population in 2000 is Islam.

=-=

As for

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Show me where I said that all Swiss Muslims are immigrants.

well, you said it many times. One example would be:

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

I said 4.3% are muslim immigrants.

malthus

This is democracy, the swiss people voted for it and the minarets should now be banned. I am not anti-immigration but Immigrants need to realise that the countries they are coming to have traditions and values that must be respected. Seems like they give the people more of a say in Switzerland and being free of the liberal EU facists gives them a purer democracy. more liberty and freedom!

Martin 2

malthus wrote: »

This is democracy, the swiss people voted for it and the minarets should now be banned. I am not anti-immigration but Immigrants need to realise that the countries they are coming to have traditions and values that must be respected. Seems like they give the people more of a say in Switzerland and being free of the liberal EU facists gives them a purer democracy. more liberty and freedom!

And what about indigenous Muslims, do they not have a right to have minarets on their mosques? Is there a similar law banning spires on Christian churches? why do you think that is?
Yes, it was a democratic decision but one measure of a democracy is how well it treats its minorities and in this respect the Swiss model has faired badly.

Flamed Diving

malthus wrote: »

This is democracy, the swiss people voted for it and the minarets should now be banned. I am not anti-immigration but Immigrants need to realise that the countries they are coming to have traditions and values that must be respected. Seems like they give the people more of a say in Switzerland and being free of the liberal EU facists gives them a purer democracy. more liberty and freedom!

Hello alt-account!

*waves*

malthus

Martin 2 wrote: »

And what about indigenous Muslims, do they not have a right to have minarets on their mosques? Is there a similar law banning spires on Christian churches? why do you think that is?
Yes, it was a democratic decision but one measure of a democracy is how well it treats its minorities and in this respect the Swiss model has faired badly.

Does the Swiss culture, tradition and history count for nothing then?

Do Muslim respect it? Should they respect it?

Why don't have a look at how religious minorities are treated in Islamic countries, Muslims have it so easy here in comparison.

Secularism is failing is Europe.

I reckon you are the kind of smug liberal who is only comfortable with democracy when it agrees with your opinion.

Martin 2

Does the Swiss culture, tradition and history count for nothing then?
Of course it does, never said it didn't but why can't the two co-exist?

Do Muslim respect it? Should they respect it?
In Switzerland, I'm sure they do, at least most of them.


Why don't have a look at how religious minorities are treated in Islamic countries, Muslims have it so easy here in comparison.
Two wrongs don't make a right


Secularism is failing is Europe.
So discrimination is a better solution


I reckon you are the kind of smug liberal who is only comfortable with democracy when it agrees with your opinion.


.

peasant

Coming back to the building side of things

Personally I think it's all fine and dandy once you have a purpose built mosque on a greenfield site somewhere (like this Irish one http://www.islamireland.ie/facilities-services) ...knock yourselves out with domes and minarets.

The problem arises when small muslim communities in villages/small towns look to have their place of prayer fitted with a minaret. What often happens is that they buy an old house or shop, do it up and convert it into a place of prayer. Usually very few people (if any) do object to just that.
The objection arises when that existing structure (that usually has been part of the village/town for ages) is supposed to change its face from house/shop to mosque complete with minaret. ...in other words when the muslim faith becomes "in your face" and when the change becomes obvious.

Which leads me to integration:

Which form of muslim place of prayer symbolises successful integration more ...the converted building that looks as it always did but serves a different purpose ...or the one that sticks out like a sore thumb?
Which one is more conducive to further the acceptance of islam and islamic congregations in the general populace?

djpbarry

malthus wrote: »

Why don't have a look at how religious minorities are treated in Islamic countries, Muslims have it so easy here in comparison.

I take it by “Islamic countries”, you mean Saudi Arabia?

oscarBravo

bonkey wrote: »

This whole "immigrant" side-issue reminds me of the run-up to the referendum itself.

People were more interested in discussing a side-issue then as well, rather then the question being raised by the referendum. Then, it was the controversial nature of the ad-campaign for the Yes vote....here, its the controversial nature of the "immigrant" comment.

An excellent point. I'm guilty of taking the bait and helping to drag the subject off-topic, so let me make it clear:

This thread is not about immigrants to Switzerland. It's about minarets - and by extension, Islam - in Switzerland.

SeanW

djpbarry wrote: »

I take it by “Islamic countries”, you mean Saudi Arabia?

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan esp Kashmir, etc, all places where it is very dangerous to be a non-Muslim or to have an opinion that is not convenient for the theological dictatorship in charge. Or even to be a Muslim of the wrong sect.

Meanwhile in Europe a Muslim can set up a mosque just about anywhere, in any style they like, staff it with radical clerics who preach hate from the pulpit, fully guaranteed that if anyone monitors the sermons and publishes the results the cleric won't be touched but the monitors will be prosecuted. A man can come from Saudi Arabia or some other s***hole to the U.K. and claim benefits for multiple wives. You can participate in a demonstration calling for the bombing of entire Western European countries and call for their annihalation in the name of Allah. They can set up schools to teach their children that all religions other than Islam are worthless and the Jews and Christians are apes and pigs. All perfectly legal.

Muslims have little cause to complain, but that doesn't stop some of them.

The Swiss people know about a lot of this, they know how many people have written or said things unkind to Islam and either been threatened or killed (Salman Rushdie, Theo Van Gogh etc), they know about Sharia "justice," the fact that many of the civilised countries on Earth are currently fighting Islamism, they know that there have been huge problems with Muslims (not) integrating into European society, and many - both Western and Muslim people - view the coexistance of Western democracy and Islamic values (particularly within the same country) as being impossible.

So while the response of the Liberal left has been boringly predictable:

So concerned is the government by the decision that Swiss Justice Minister Eveline Widmer Schlumpf, watching the results come in on Sunday afternoon, apparently told her advisers there ought to be some restrictions on what the general public can actually vote on.

(Source)
It strikes me therefore quite plainly that the Swiss people are afraid of Islam, and feel threatened by it, and given the evidence on offer, I can't really blame them.

The REAL question to be asked here, is why do the Swiss people feel so threatened?