An Irish identity

metrovelvet

Zulu wrote: »

A brief education would indicate that there is more to a language than simply speaking it. Didn't you study English in school?
Who said I spoke late in life? Although, if your education didn't include English I can understand how you may be getting confused.
Sure it is. You just don't know any better. Ignorance tbh.

My son is two and half is not in school and can speak English. Why did you have to go to school to learn English when nearly every native toddler can speak it?

metrovelvet

Notorious wrote: »

I'm not picking on you my friend, but as an American (you are, ain't ya?), I think you of all people should be able to respect different cultures, regardless of how old they are. After all, the United States of America would be one of the most multi-cultural societies in the world at the moment.

I dont disrespect Irish culture. Not at all. What I am saying is that it is not one of the "big nations" with global impact and history and that is why a lot of people dont know anything about it ir why they might confuse an Irish person for British.

What I dont get is why Irish people get offended by being mistaken for British. Do they get offended if mistaken for French? Italian?

As for me being American, why don't you ask Zulu since he is so fond of telling me who and what I am.

And maybe he can tell me what my two year old is. Born in the US. In Ireland since he was 2 months old. Irish ? American? Irish American?

Identity is not always simple.

Zulu

metrovelvet wrote: »

Why did you have to go to school to learn English when nearly every native toddler can speak it?

Review the posts. You appear to be having difficulty understanding basic English. Perhaps your two and a half year old can help you?

seahorse

metrovelvet wrote: »

JFK wasnt Irish, he was Irish American, like myself. This is part of the problem, you dont even know your own identities, you cant even tell who is Irish and who isnt.

Its clear you know very little about American history and the identity of our presidents which you claim to be of your own nationality, when they are not.

I’m stepping out of this conversation now because I don’t have time to suffer fools. My life is just simply too busy for that Metrovelvet, but I have a couple of things to tell you before I go:

Any idiot could tell you JFK was Irish American, as are the 45+ million people of Irish descent who have helped shape the American nation.

America poked its nose into Vietnamese affairs long before JFK was ever inaugurated and the atrocities of Vietnam were carried out after he was assassinated, under the Johnson Administration. Go and read a history book, American, Irish, or better still Irish-American. It would give you a foundation to debate these issues, which you are currently clearly lacking.

And finally: I have not now and nor have I ever had any sense of confusion related to the identity of the Republic of Ireland as a sovereign nation, not a ‘secondary nation’, nor a ‘primary nation’ (as if there were such preposterous things) and I have yet to meet a self-proclaimed Irish person who was confused on that point.

Notorious

metrovelvet wrote: »

a lot of people dont know anything about it ir why they might confuse an Irish person for British.

I can understand why an Irish person might be mistaken as a British person. It hasn't happened to me too often, but it has happened. A Canadian asked me if I was English recently, I said no - end of.

What I dont get is why Irish people get offended by being mistaken for British. Do they get offended if mistaken for French? Italian?

Firstly, I've never heard of an Irish person being mistaken for a French/Spanish/Italian/etc. person. That'd be a difficult mistake to make.

Now I so think it is understandable and obvious why some people get offended by it. Check out imstrongerthanu's post above. This is the attitude a lot of people have against the British. I'm not getting into that debate, but a lot of people still hold a grudge due to our past history.

metrovelvet

Notorious wrote: »

I can understand why an Irish person might be mistaken as a British person. It hasn't happened to me too often, but it has happened. A Canadian asked me if I was English recently, I said no - end of.



Firstly, I've never heard of an Irish person being mistaken for a French/Spanish/Italian/etc. person. That'd be a difficult mistake to make.

Now I so think it is understandable and obvious why some people get offended by it. Check out imstrongerthanu's post above. This is the attitude a lot of people have against the British. I'm not getting into that debate, but a lot of people still hold a grudge due to our past history.

They get offended by it because they hate the British. Right. So it points to their own bigotry.

imstrongerthanu's post is racist and hate fueled and yet its permitted and not reprimanded. Why? Because its ok to hate the English. Hating the english is part of what it means to be Irish? Isnt that letting your enemy define you?

Notorious

metrovelvet wrote: »

They get offended by it because they hate the British. Right. So it points to their own bigotry.

imstrongerthanu's post is racist and hate fueled and yet its permitted and not reprimanded. Why? Because its ok to hate the English. Hating the english is part of what it means to be Irish? Isnt that letting your enemy define you?

Hold on, you can't tar every Irish person with the same brush. I can only speak for myself; I don't hate the English. They aren't my 'enemy'. Nobody said that hating the English was ok, I just think we all just chose to ignore imstrongerthanu's post. The Irish and English debate is plastered all over boards, and it usually just leads to petty hate talk. They have their own opinion be it right or wrong, we ain't going to change that.

What I was trying to say was that it's generally obvious why someone would take offence to being referred to as English. I wouldn't.

metrovelvet

Notorious wrote: »

Hold on, you can't tar every Irish person with the same brush. I can only speak for myself; I don't hate the English. They aren't my 'enemy'. Nobody said that hating the English was ok, I just think we all just chose to ignore imstrongerthanu's post. The Irish and English debate is plastered all over boards, and it usually just leads to petty hate talk. They have their own opinion be it right or wrong, we ain't going to change that.

What I was trying to say was that it's generally obvious why someone would take offence to being referred to as English. I wouldn't.

Its not obvious to me.

Kooli

metrovelvet wrote: »

I dont disrespect Irish culture. Not at all. What I am saying is that it is not one of the "big nations" with global impact and history and that is why a lot of people dont know anything about it ir why they might confuse an Irish person for British.

What I dont get is why Irish people get offended by being mistaken for British. Do they get offended if mistaken for French? Italian?

I actually agree with some of your points in that some Irish people have an over-inflated sense of their own importance in the sense that they are shocked or appalled when they go to a different country and meet someone who doesn't know something about us (that we use the euro, that we speak English, that we are not part of the UK etc. etc.). Some people don't realise that we are really quite small on the global stage, and that that's OK, there are only 4 million of us! And maybe that's what you mean by a 'secondary nation'?

As for why we get annoyed at being called British? I guess it's ingrained in our culture that we fought for centuries to be separate from the Brits, so separateness is a point of pride in itself, and rightly so. I personally wouldn't get annoyed, but I certainly wouldn't let it go uncorrected.

So I agree with that much of what you said. But you have been pretty condescending on this thread, which has got people's backs up and now there's not much chance of a reasonable discussion.

Notorious

metrovelvet wrote: »

Its not obvious to me.

Some Irish people still have a chip on their shoulder due to our entangled history.

metrovelvet

Notorious wrote: »

Some Irish people still have a chip on their shoulder due to our entangled history.

You know what. I sort of get it but it doesnt make it right. Just like in the US there are african americans who have a chip on their shoulder about white oppression and slavery etc etc, and I have been on the receiving end of that, with the "irish are racist", the boston cops, blah blah blah, and how we should be paying for it. My response is "hey. my parents didnt even come to this country until the 1970s. We had nothing to do with any of that. And yet you want me to pay for the sins of a past that had nothing to do with me or my family." I see the Irish chip about the Brits similarly. Its not fair to take it out on people who had nothing to do with it. It just makes you a bigot.

schween

In Spain some people ask if I'm English (2 people have told me I've an English accent in the last few weeks!) and when I say I'm Irish they become apologetic and awkward. I tell them I don't care, relax!

Then I've had a good few people ask me if I hate the British...to which I reply no! Although sometimes I wind them up

Zulu

metrovelvet wrote: »

They get offended by it because they hate the British. Right.

Wrong. I don't get offended because I "hate the British".

What you are doing wrong there is picking a subsection, a minority, and judging the majority by that.

Nevyn

This funny how any of the gaelic nations react the same.

I an NOT english I am Irish/Welsh/Scottish/Cornish/Manx.

Each has it's own culture and each chaffes at being considered to be english,
even if to outsiders there appears to be bugger all difference. It is the way of tribal nations.

miec

I think Metrovelvet that you have purposefully been insulting by referring to Ireland as a secondary nation and generally coming out with some extremely insulting comments with the aim of riling people.

You have referred to Ireland as a secondary nation, although you have not stated categorically to whom? One is led to assume that you mean England.

Its still a derivative culture. It just adopted everything British, its political structure, etc and stuck Irish names on it.

First of all, prior to becoming a free state, British laws, language, culture and religion was forced upon the Irish, that is a fact. Once Ireland became a free state we modified many aspects of British culture and kept those aspects that work.

[FONT=&quot]Hating the english is part of what it means to be Irish? Isnt that letting your enemy define you? [/FONT]

That is a gross simplification and you know it. That does not define Irish identity, you are looking to goad people. Interestingly though, when England had colonised Ireland, it was the English who needed to define themselves against us, by making us to be inferior and subhuman, referring to us as either comical paddy like people or apes. Our post colonial culture has a lot more in common with Africa, India and other post colonial nations than England.

You bandied about the terms post colonialism but you do not define what it is or expand upon your arguement, you just throw out terms and statements to deliberately wind people up and sadly your posts come across as ill-informed and coming from a rather lunatic mind who knows very little about Irish history.

Whilst culture is fluid and adapts to new circumstances we have had our own culture for a long time, yes it harks back to the past but then so does British idenitity, they continue to use a monarchy, celebrate Chaucer and Shakespeare, are they not doing the same.

It is true whether we like it or not our identity is bound with England. Prior to colonisation, we each had our seperate cultures but when England colonised Ireland, we were forced to adapt many aspects of that culture whether we wanted to or not. Other factors helped to erode our language, ways of living and so forth such as the famine and mass emigration but most of it occurrred because one nation imposed itself upon another. Now why do you think it needs to do that? It says more about the oppressor than the oppressed nation.

Mass emigration created a diaspora class in America, the UK and other places so it is hard for those of us with dual nationalities to truly define what nationality we are, I have this difficulty because I was born in the UK of Irish parents, and raised in both countries. I am one of many.

Ireland has only had its freedom since 1921 and during that time we are trying to define and find out who we are as a nation, during that time we have had civil war and poverty for a large proportion of it, then the activities of the IRA and the Troubles in the North. It is only in recent times that we as a nation are developing some sort of confidence in ourselves, which may account for the prickiliness when people assume we are British. Ireland is a nation, like Seahorse points out, it is neither secondary or primary, it is a nation, simple as. On a personal note, and I think many will agree with me, that we do not take kindly to jumped up, nasty, ill informed comments that seek to bring down that newly developed confidence.

Zulu

miec wrote: »

I think Metrovelvet that you have purposefully been insulting by referring to Ireland as a secondary nation and generally coming out with some extremely insulting comments with the aim of riling people.

You have referred to Ireland as a secondary nation, although you have not stated categorically to whom? One is led to assume that you mean England.



First of all, prior to becoming a free state, British laws, language, culture and religion was forced upon the Irish, that is a fact. Once Ireland became a free state we modified many aspects of British culture and kept those aspects that work.



That is a gross simplification and you know it. That does not define Irish identity, you are looking to goad people. Interestingly though, when England had colonised Ireland, it was the English who needed to define themselves against us, by making us to be inferior and subhuman, referring to us as either comical paddy like people or apes. Our post colonial culture has a lot more in common with Africa, India and other post colonial nations than England.

You bandied about the terms post colonialism but you do not define what it is or expand upon your arguement, you just throw out terms and statements to deliberately wind people up and sadly your posts come across as ill-informed and coming from a rather lunatic mind who knows very little about Irish history.

Whilst culture is fluid and adapts to new circumstances we have had our own culture for a long time, yes it harks back to the past but then so does British idenitity, they continue to use a monarchy, celebrate Chaucer and Shakespeare, are they not doing the same.

It is true whether we like it or not our identity is bound with England. Prior to colonisation, we each had our seperate cultures but when England colonised Ireland, we were forced to adapt many aspects of that culture whether we wanted to or not. Other factors helped to erode our language, ways of living and so forth such as the famine and mass emigration but most of it occurrred because one nation imposed itself upon another. Now why do you think it needs to do that? It says more about the oppressor than the oppressed nation.

Mass emigration created a diaspora class in America, the UK and other places so it is hard for those of us with dual nationalities to truly define what nationality we are, I have this difficulty because I was born in the UK of Irish parents, and raised in both countries. I am one of many.

Ireland has only had its freedom since 1921 and during that time we are trying to define and find out who we are as a nation, during that time we have had civil war and poverty for a large proportion of it, then the activities of the IRA and the Troubles in the North. It is only in recent times that we as a nation are developing some sort of confidence in ourselves, which may account for the prickiliness when people assume we are British. Ireland is a nation, like Seahorse points out, it is neither secondary or primary, it is a nation, simple as. On a personal note, and I think many will agree with me, that we do not take kindly to jumped up, nasty, ill informed comments that seek to bring down that newly developed confidence.

Excellent post.

#15

metrovelvet wrote: »

They get offended by it because they hate the British. Right. So it points to their own bigotry.

Hold on, have you read my opening post at all?

I don't hate Britain or the British at all.

How does that fit with your thesis that only bigots would get offended?

#15

metrovelvet wrote: »

What I dont get is why Irish people get offended by being mistaken for British.

If you don't get it then why are you commenting so extensively on it?

I know why some Irish people get offended.

But I started the thread because I am not sure why I got offended when that German girl asked me the question.

I was not offended on any historical basis, I have studied Irish history extensively (formally and informally). I have no hang-ups in that regard. I don't subscribe to the ''we were viciously oppressed'' theory. I'm aware of the Irish role in the British Empire too.

After reading this thread, I think I was offended (for lack of a better word) because the girl assumed I was British when she heard me speaking English.

To be fair to her though, if I heard someone speaking German, I would probably assume they were from Germany. Even though they may come from Austria.

metrovelvet

Someone had pointed to imstrongerhtan you;s post as an example of the attitiude that some Irish have against the British. I was responding to that,not your own reaction of getting offended.

When you post these things in humanities, there is an allowance for these things to become abstracted and topical. If you want people to respond only to your experience then that is what PI is for.

Why did you get offended? Would you have gotten offended if you were mistaken for American or Canadian?

ChocolateSauce

Zulu wrote: »

It's also worth considering that people tend to get annoyed answering the same question time and again.

This may indeed be a factor. My accent is a very strange mix of American, British and Irish (particularly south Dublin and Donegal, thanks to the company I keep), but almost universally the first question I get from people who tend to hate immigrants and the English is "where are you from?". Considering I was born and raised in Dublin and have never lived anywhere else, it gets very annoying and I have sometimes unfairly snapped at people who didn't deserve it.

#15

metrovelvet wrote: »

Why did you get offended? Would you have gotten offended if you were mistaken for American or Canadian?

I don't think I was ''offended'', annoyed is probably the better word. I did say in my previous post

I think I was offended (for lack of a better word)

I think annoyed would be a better word. I didn't take offence, but I was momentarily annoyed at the girl.

Would you have gotten offended if you were mistaken for American or Canadian?

I don't know. I would like to think not. But I would always have said that I would not have been annoyed if someone mistakenly thought I was British.
And that didn't hold true for me. So maybe I would get annoyed if someone thought I was American or Canadian.

Obviously, in the cold light of day, its an easy mistake for a foreigner to make, so I'm not that bothered. But at the time I was.

How do you explain my reaction to the question from the German girl?

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

This funny how any of the gaelic nations react the same.

I an NOT english I am Irish/Welsh/Scottish/Cornish/Manx.

Each has it's own culture and each chaffes at being considered to be english,
even if to outsiders there appears to be bugger all difference. It is the way of tribal nations.

Yes but people from Wales, Scotland, Cornwall [dont know what Manx is], are British, they are not English, so they couldnt be offended by being called British.

OP was mistaken for British, not English.

metrovelvet

#15 wrote: »

I don't think I was ''offended'', annoyed is probably the better word. I did say in my previous post


I think annoyed would be a better word. I didn't take offence, but I was momentarily annoyed at the girl.



I don't know. I would like to think not. But I would always have said that I would not have been annoyed if someone mistakenly thought I was British.
And that didn't hold true for me. So maybe I would get annoyed if someone thought I was American or Canadian.

Obviously, in the cold light of day, its an easy mistake for a foreigner to make, so I'm not that bothered. But at the time I was.

How do you explain my reaction to the question from the German girl?

The reason I was asking if you would be offended if being mistaken for American or Canadian was to see if your reaction was rooting in wanting the Irishness recognised or that if it was more about the whole British thing.

Lets face it, it would be very hard for any of us to hear someone speaking arabic, French, Spanish,or Hebrew and be able to pin point what nation they are from.

Zulu

What? If by "any of us" you mean Irish people (or people on Boards.ie), thats rubbish. Most Europeans would readily identify a French or Spanish person.

However, I appricate that, if by "us" you mean americans, you may be correct.

metrovelvet

metrovelvet wrote: »

The reason I was asking if you would be offended if being mistaken for American or Canadian was to see if your reaction was rooting in wanting the Irishness recognised or that if it was more about the whole British thing.

Lets face it, it would be very hard for any of us to hear someone speaking arabic, French, Spanish,or Hebrew and be able to pin point what nation they are from.

Really. So you hear someone speaking French and you will know if they are from France, Belgium or Canada?

You hear someone speaking Spanish and you know if they are from Spain or one of the many nations of south america or possibily even from the US. And you can tell if someone speaking Hebrew is Israeli or Russian Jew or from another nation?

Zulu

You like to jump to conclusions, don't you? I never said anything about Russians, Israelis, or South Americans.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Really. So you hear someone speaking French...

I'll know a French person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.
And I'll know a Spanish person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.

Why do you feel the need to deliberately misinterpret my posts?*

* That’s a rhetorical question to highlight what you are continually doing. I don’t particularly care for your answer.

metrovelvet

Zulu wrote: »

You like to jump to conclusions, don't you? I never said anything about Russians, Israelis, or South Americans.
I'll know a French person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.
And I'll know a Spanish person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.

Why do you feel the need to deliberately misinterpret my posts?*

* That’s a rhetorical question to highlight what you are continually doing. I don’t particularly care for your answer.

So you hear spanish and you know whether they are from spain or venezuela?

You hear portuguese and you know if they are from brazil or portugal?

You hear French and you know what country they are from?

Zulu

Zulu wrote: »

You like to jump to conclusions, don't you? I never said anything about Russians, Israelis, or South Americans.
I'll know a French person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.
And I'll know a Spanish person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.

Why do you feel the need to deliberately misinterpret my posts?*

* That’s a rhetorical question to highlight what you are continually doing. I don’t particularly care for your answer.

Note:

Zulu wrote: »

It's also worth considering that people tend to get annoyed answering the same question time and again.

This annoyance gets compounded when the question is founded in ignorance.

metrovelvet

Would you know a french canadian when you met one?

Would you know an argetinian when you met one?

Instant Karma

metrovelvet wrote: »

Would you know a french canadian when you met one?

Would you know an argetinian when you met one?

Congratulations for completely ignoring the post on the previous page that all but destroyed your arguments and still persevering with the thread.

metrovelvet

Instant Karma wrote: »

Congratulations for completely ignoring the post on the previous page that all but destroyed your arguments and still persevering with the thread.

Ill take that as a no, you cant identity an ecuadorian or belgian when you meet them.

#15

metrovelvet wrote: »

The reason I was asking if you would be offended if being mistaken for American or Canadian was to see if your reaction was rooting in wanting the Irishness recognised or that if it was more about the whole British thing.

I know the reason why you were asking. You were checking to see if I was a bigot.

It was condescending as well as insulting.

No need to explain the insult even further.

If you read my other posts, I have already said that I have no historical hang-ups.

Thats why I started the thread, I don't have any typical anti-British attitudes that would cause me to react in such a way. You have missed the point of the thread, which is basically, how can someone who is not really patriotic, get annoyed at being mistaken for a different nationality?

metrovelvet

#15 wrote: »

I know the reason why you were asking. You were checking to see if I was a bigot.

It was condescending as well as insulting.

No need to explain the insult even further.

If you read my other posts, I have already said that I have no historical hang-ups.

Thats why I started the thread, I don't have any typical anti-British attitudes that would cause me to react in such a way. You have missed the point of the thread, which is basically, how can someone who is not really patriotic, get annoyed at being mistaken for a different nationality?

Because they want their nationhood recogised. Its like being latin american and people always calling you "spanish" just because you speak the language. I dont think they would get upset if mistaken for Phillipino. Its the bi product of living under the shadow of another country's legacy. WHich is what I said from the start. You dont need to be patriotic to feel this frustration, you dont need to be nationalistic to feel it, your nationhood is part of your identity.

Zulu

If you believe that "nationhood is part of your identity", wouldn't referring to someone’s nation as a "secondary nation" then be deliberately insulting? And provocative?

metrovelvet

I want to add to my last post, that it is not really fair on the person mistaking your identity to be peeved or offended or even off put or even slightly disturbed because how the hell are they supposed to know where you are from?

No one hear admits it but I suspect it is true, if you heard someone speaking French you would assume they are French. I dont think most people would jump to the conclusion French Canadian or Belgian. Why is that? Because France is a more prominant culture - it is primary so it is more in the forefront of people's minds.

liah

metrovelvet wrote: »

I want to add to my last post, that it is not really fair on the person mistaking your identity to be peeved or offended or even off put or even slightly disturbed because how the hell are they supposed to know where you are from?

No one hear admits it but I suspect it is true, if you heard someone speaking French you would assume they are French. I dont think most people would jump to the conclusion French Canadian or Belgian. Why is that? Because France is a more prominant culture - it is primary so it is more in the forefront of people's minds.

Should be able to tell by the accent, in fairness-- though I guess the most french you'd here around here is french from France so I understand the mistake.

That said, you weren't speaking about foreign language countries. You were talking about English language countries, and it is fairly easy to tell an English accent from a Scottish one or an Irish one. It gets hazy with Welsh and some parts of England, Northern Ireland with some parts of Scotland, the south of Ireland with the far east coast of Canada, and border Canada with border United States. So a bit of leeway is allowed there. But in general, it's very hard to mistake English language accents if it is your native tongue unless you're particularly ignorant.

Besides, it's not the accents people are getting upset about, I don't think. It's the assumption that Ireland is part of Britain, or that Canada and the US are the same thing, or that Ireland and Canada are living in the "shadows" of England and the US or are jealous or some other such crap. The offense comes in when you explain that you're Irish (or Canadian, in my case) and the person just fobs you off and goes "well sure they're basically the same thing anyway."

metrovelvet

liah wrote: »

Should be able to tell by the accent, in fairness-- though I guess the most french you'd here around here is french from France so I understand the mistake.

That said, you weren't speaking about foreign language countries. You were talking about English language countries, and it is fairly easy to tell an English accent from a Scottish one or an Irish one. It gets hazy with Welsh and some parts of England, Northern Ireland with some parts of Scotland, the south of Ireland with the far east coast of Canada, and border Canada with border United States. So a bit of leeway is allowed there. But in general, it's very hard to mistake English language accents if it is your native tongue unless you're particularly ignorant.

Besides, it's not the accents people are getting upset about, I don't think. It's the assumption that Ireland is part of Britain, or that Canada and the US are the same thing, or that Ireland and Canada are living in the "shadows" of England and the US or are jealous or some other such crap. The offense comes in when you explain that you're Irish (or Canadian, in my case) and the person just fobs you off and goes "well sure they're basically the same thing anyway."

Right if its your native tongue. The girl in question was German.

And no its not always easy even in your native tongue. There are some Irish accents that do sound very anglo. And there are some accents in Canada that do sound like American ones.

I cant tell a northern irish accent from a scottish one. Not at all. And some of my mothers family who are Irish sound very English to me. If I didn't know them I probably would think they are English. [I bet your starting to think Im protestant now].

Why do you care if people think "ah sure its all the same." Who cares?

Kooli

metrovelvet wrote: »

Yes but people from Wales, Scotland, Cornwall [dont know what Manx is], are British, they are not English, so they couldnt be offended by being called British.

OP was mistaken for British, not English.

Yes but as you said yourself this thread has grown to be about more than just the OP, so it's just as relevant as comparing the USA and Canada.

If we are proud of our culture and uniqueness (as are Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man etc.) then of course we are going to make sure people know that we are of that certain nationality.

The reason, I think, why I wouldn't be bothered if someone thought I was French, American or Australian is because
a) that rarely happens
b) it has no historical or political significance or meaning.

Whereas being called English or British does have other connotations brought about by our history.

For the Irish it's quite simple. THere was a time when we, as a nation, WERE British. We fought long and hard to change that. It changed. And that's a point of pride. Simple as that. No bigotry.

If one of the United States fought long and hard for independence from the States, don't you think that if someone said 'Are you American?' they would strongly say 'NO I'm X (and don't you forget it!)'

metrovelvet

Kooli wrote: »

Yes but as you said yourself this thread has grown to be about more than just the OP, so it's just as relevant as comparing the USA and Canada.

If we are proud of our culture and uniqueness (as are Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man etc.) then of course we are going to make sure people know that we are of that certain nationality.

The reason, I think, why I wouldn't be bothered if someone thought I was French, American or Australian is because
a) that rarely happens
b) it has no historical or political significance or meaning.

Whereas being called English or British does have other connotations brought about by our history.

For the Irish it's quite simple. THere was a time when we, as a nation, WERE British. We fought long and hard to change that. It changed. And that's a point of pride. Simple as that. No bigotry.

If one of the United States fought long and hard for independence from the States, don't you think that if someone said 'Are you American?' they would strongly say 'NO I'm X (and don't you forget it!)'

We were British once. I dont know of any Americans that get offended by that, but then it rarely happens.

#15

metrovelvet wrote: »

We were British once. I dont know of any Americans that get offended by that, but then it rarely happens.

American and Irish situations are not really comaparable.

metrovelvet

#15 wrote: »

American and Irish situations are not really comaparable.

Oh I know that, it was just the previous poster was comparing them.

#15

liah wrote: »

Besides, it's not the accents people are getting upset about, I don't think. It's the assumption that Ireland is part of Britain, or that Canada and the US are the same thing, or that Ireland and Canada are living in the "shadows" of England and the US or are jealous or some other such crap. The offense comes in when you explain that you're Irish (or Canadian, in my case) and the person just fobs you off and goes "well sure they're basically the same thing anyway."

Exactly. I haven't brought this up yet, because I know I was correct in both of these cases.
Two German guys that I met (on seperate occasions) both made the assumption that Ireland was a part of the UK. I corrected both of them but I know that they didn't really take me seriously. That was far more annoying than a girl who didn't recognise my accent. Another girl asked me if the 1995 divorce referendum was about Ireland divorcing from the UK. I couldn't believe it.

I'm not going to tar all Germans, I generally find them to be knowledgeable people. But those few....!!

Pollythene Pam

b12mearse wrote: »

I think alot of Irish culture has been invented. We are in denial of Britains legacy in this country. So we turn to the likes of boggers in the west, like galway, kerry and in the north donegal in search of the 'Irish' identity.

What a cheeky git you are.
I do not appriciate being called a bogger.
The problem is that in the West we had less of a British influence, hence why our native language, and identity is much stronger. I grant you we do use it as a weapon against the rest of the country sometimes.
But bear this in mind, about 70% of people living in Dublin have Western ancestory.
Think about that next time you hop on the DART to Dalkey

Notorious

Kooli wrote: »

If one of the United States fought long and hard for independence from the States, don't you think that if someone said 'Are you American?' they would strongly say 'NO I'm X (and don't you forget it!)'

You could compare this today to the people of Barcelona. A good friend of mine is Catalonian, and very proud of it. If you were to ask him if he was Spanish, he'd tell you he's from Barcelona. He tells me that if the Catalonian people were given the opportunity to separate from Spain, that the majority would vote in favour of separation. He wouldn't get offended if you asked him if he was Spanish, but he would assure you he was from Barcelona.

Kooli

metrovelvet wrote: »

We were British once. I dont know of any Americans that get offended by that, but then it rarely happens.

#15 wrote: »

American and Irish situations are not really comaparable.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Oh I know that, it was just the previous poster was comparing them.

Eh...I don't think I was comparing them?

You didn't really address my point, you just made a comparison that doesn't make sense.

The reason it doesn't make sense is because of COURSE there is a huge difference between America becoming independent from British rule and Ireland becoming independent of British Rule. And you admit that you know that, so why is that your response to my post?

The Americans (not the Native Americans) were not a pre-existing culture that had been around for centuries before having British rule enforced on it, so of course there would be the historical connotations with being called 'British' that there are with us.

But if you still want to believe that the reason people get annoyed is because of a bigoted hatred of today's British people, then go ahead, I'm clearly not going to change your mind.

Nevyn

Manx those who indigenous to the Ise of Mann.

TheCandystripes

ye all my french friends think dublin looks the exact same as any british city and they think people are like brits as well. sucks but reality.

#15

TheCandystripes wrote: »

ye all my french friends think dublin looks the exact same as any british city and they think people are like brits as well. sucks but reality.

To be fair, Dublin was once the second city of the empire. And much of the most prominent architecture is British.

TheCandystripes

dont get me wrong they like it, they like ireland but they dont see any distinct difference between british and irish except britain is way more like france i.e multicultural

#15

TheCandystripes wrote: »

dont get me wrong they like it, they like ireland but they dont see any distinct difference between british and irish except britain is way more like france i.e multicultural

As someone else said on the thread, only the Irish can see the difference between the Irish and the British!!