Standing up for Teachers.

kangaroo

Slugs wrote: »

(replying to somebody else) I still think people are being a little too hard on teachers. Despite what you like to harp on about, if your going into teaching for the 3 months holidays, for those other 9 months, you're seriously in trouble. Teaching really is a vocation, it takes a lot of commitment, and involves handing over a decent amount of your spare time. After all, when would they correct homework? When would they organise tests, study notes and field trips. During 9-4 is it? .

Secondary teachers are contracted to 22 teaching hours a week (33 weeks 2 days).
That works out as an average of 4 hours, 22 minutes a day. They are not teaching 9-4 in case anyone thought that. So teachers do have some time 9-4 to prepare for classes, etc. Primary teachers don't work 9-4.

Slugs wrote: »

(AS well as that, many teachers are also striking against the education cutbacks, and rightly so. Very little consideration was taken when making these cutbacks. Two things should NEVER be touched unless absolutely necessary. Health and Education, and if they government continue to hit these two sectors, if we ever get out of this recession (which I doubt) We're going to have a severly lacking working sector.

When I looked at departmental spending e.g. in the McCarthy report, Education, Health and Social Welfare made up over 80% of the total spending across all the departments. (It was around 85% based on updated figures I heard for those departments but then other departments may have increased so the 80%+ is probably safer).

There are lots of other important departments out there that can't be massively cut back e.g. justice. You really can't make the savings necessary if you exclude Education, Health and Social Welfare.

At a time of deflation, I could accept some cuts in Social Welfare. But I think we should be looking at other areas rather than massive cuts in that area.

So I think Health and Education spending have to be looked at. In Education, a large amount of it is simply salaries for education professionals. I don't see why they should justify the special treatment you mention in these sentences:

Two things should NEVER be touched unless absolutely necessary. Health and Education

I think a lot of people in society may mix that up. We don't necessarily want our education system to fall apart. That doesn't mean we can't make cuts in the pay and/or conditions of some of the people in the field.

Slugs wrote: »

(And in relation to your comment on the IMF coming in, I don't think you fully understand the consequences of their takeover. IF they come in, say goodbye to what you know of Ireland today. I suggest you look into the IMF in a little more detail.

I'm no expert on the IMF but I wouldn't be looking forward to it coming in either. But the thing that would bring it about is if there are not cuts in public expenditure. We're spending approx 500m more than we are taking in, each week. We can't "tax our way" up to what we are spending each year - there have to be cut-backs somewhere.

lily09

Hi,
I am a primary school teacher, I voted against the strike and therefore did not picket (as did a large portion of my teacher friends in the 25-30 bracket but this is merely hearsay and not fact.)
Obviously I do not want a pay cut and feel I do not deserve one (34 children in mixed infant/first class, 4 with severe language disorders, 1 autistic, 2 with no English but I digress..)
However I can understand how many of the posters here can feel aggrieved with teachers, there are a minority that exploit the lack of controls in the job.
Personally reduction in my pay would be a lot more palatable if those that are not as productive as possible are removed to make way for those that will show the job the respect it demands.
Please dont tar us all with the one brush, we are not all whingers and moaners. I honestly never thought about pay and pensions as an 18yr old LC student, some of us genuinly do love the job.....

ei.sdraob

lily09 wrote: »

Hi,
I am a primary school teacher, I voted against the strike and therefore did not picket (as did a large portion of my teacher friends in the 25-30 bracket but this is merely hearsay and not fact.)
Obviously I do not want a pay cut and feel I do not deserve one (34 children in mixed infant/first class, 4 with severe language disorders, 1 autistic, 2 with no English but I digress..)
However I can understand how many of the posters here can feel aggrieved with teachers, there are a minority that exploit the lack of controls in the job.
Personally reduction in my pay would be a lot more palatable if those that are not as productive as possible are removed to make way for those that will show the job the respect it demands.
Please dont tar us all with the one brush, we are not all whingers and moaners. I honestly never thought about pay and pensions as an 18yr old LC student, some of us genuinly do love the job.....

good post

is there any way possible that yee get benchmarking (in both directions) based on productivity?

non of this guaranteed job, guaranteed wage increases etc ect

thats what really gets alot of people

bamboozle

lily09 wrote: »

Hi,
I am a primary school teacher, I voted against the strike and therefore did not picket (as did a large portion of my teacher friends in the 25-30 bracket but this is merely hearsay and not fact.)
Obviously I do not want a pay cut and feel I do not deserve one (34 children in mixed infant/first class, 4 with severe language disorders, 1 autistic, 2 with no English but I digress..)
However I can understand how many of the posters here can feel aggrieved with teachers, there are a minority that exploit the lack of controls in the job.
Personally reduction in my pay would be a lot more palatable if those that are not as productive as possible are removed to make way for those that will show the job the respect it demands.
Please dont tar us all with the one brush, we are not all whingers and moaners. I honestly never thought about pay and pensions as an 18yr old LC student, some of us genuinly do love the job.....

good fair post. I think unfortunately you are in the minority of teachers who dont realise that this is not an attack by the government against teachers because of the quality of the job they do, it is merely the simple fact the this country does not have the cash to pay its public servants.

lily09

I totally agree with you about the benchmarking which would depend on production and not giving jobs for life.
Its very hard to swallow a paycut when you have been accustomed to a certain standard of living, its only natural. However I see from family members in private sector the unique positon we do hold.
It would my opinion that a reasonable pay cut would be implemented, while a system of checks and balances be refined. This would ensure the immediate savings required while gauranteeing the opportunity for long term reform.
I dont think I'm perfect at my job, im not being smug about all this.but I know I work the hardest I can.

Slugs

Anyone mind explaining what benchmarking is?

population

foxymm wrote: »

I, like thousands of other teachers studied for at least 4 years in college. I did my H.Dip in Education which cost me €4,000 to do back in 2004/2005. God knows what it costs now to do. I was inspected, examined, assessed before acheiving my First Class honours.

So let me get this straight. You went to school, went to college and are now back in school. So essentially you have spent your whole life in school, and this gives you a position of sapient authority from which to pontificate on every single facet of private sector industry (eg cushy numbers etc)???

You madam, have not got a clue. I am sure the children will be forever greatful for all the "real world" knowledge you can impart unto them.

#15

ei.sdraob wrote: »

good post

is there any way possible that yee get benchmarking (in both directions) based on productivity?

non of this guaranteed job, guaranteed wage increases etc ect

thats what really gets alot of people

Pay by productivity would be the way to go. The problems arise when it comes to assessing productivity, there doesn't seem to be a good system.

Although I suppose, anything would be better than seeing worse teachers than me, getting paid more, just because they have a permanent job and have been doing the same thing for 20 years.

Daragh101

frman wrote: »

Because the Government don't have the money to pay you ?

It is quite simple really.

Surely as a teacher you have come up against difficult mathematical problems such as this.......

Little Johnny usually gets 3 apples for his lunch. Today, his mother only has 2 apples. How many apples do you think little Johnny is going to get today ?

Johnny will kick and scream. however, the simple fact remains that he will not be getting 3 apples.

why not just raise paye instead of singling out the public sector....I mean in fairness it wasnt their stupidity that ****€d up the irish economy!!

Dr Galen

Daragh101 wrote: »

why not just raise paye instead of singling out the public sector....I mean in fairness it wasnt their stupidity that ****€d up the irish economy!!

but then neither did 99% of those working in the private sector, so why should they pay more either?

danman

Daragh101 wrote: »

why not just raise paye instead of singling out the public sector....I mean in fairness it wasnt their stupidity that ****€d up the irish economy!!

When will people get it into their heads... Taxes were raised in the last budget, tax take decreased.

The money isn't there to pay the current PS wage bill. if you cannot afford something, and there isn't any way of increasing income, you cut your expenditure.

Jaysus, it's not rocket science folks.

Some idiot on Matt Cooper is saying we should get the money off the billionaires. This man is a teacher, hopefully not an economics teacher.

The money isn't there to pay the wage bill. There's no other way of saying it.

Before anyone thinks I'm PS bashing, my wife is a Public Servent on over 60,000euro. She knows she has to take a paycut and although she's not happy, she accepts this. Her equivilant in NI earns £35,000.

P. Breathnach

danman wrote: »

When will people get it into their heads... Taxes were raised in the last budget, tax take decreased...

Almost certainly not because of any change in rates. The tax base shrank considerably.

murphaph

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Almost certainly not because of any change in rates. The tax base shrank considerably.

Yes! tax rates should not be increased significantly but those earning so 'little' that they are outside the tax net should be brought in. The rest of the 20bn shortfall must come from cutting expenditure (public sector wages mainly).

narkysparky

I just want to say. Im a grade 3 public servant in the job two years and earning just below 23,000 euro. I have no prospect of promotion beacuse of an employment embargo. In 10 years, I can hope to be on just under 30,000 for long service increments. Thats ten years away, so all im worried about is now. I could not afford to live on the wage I am on now if I was to get a pay cut. I cannot stand how all public servants are made out to be fat cats earning of 60,000 sitting on their arse all day. I work for my money, and my job requires me to stay back late most days, which doesnt gain any extra reward.

And for those who say we are not attacking the public sector over the work they do, just about how much they are paid, I say bullsh*te. Anytime a good argument for public sector pay is brought up, or someone agrees with taking a paycut, they are lambasted over how "cushy" their job is, and the fact they have a job for life, unlike the private sector etc etc etc.

All it is, is typical pure Irish begrudgery and jealousy. So people, please get over your selves.

Dannyboy83

danman wrote: »

When will people get it into their heads... Taxes were raised in the last budget, tax take decreased.

The money isn't there to pay the current PS wage bill. if you cannot afford something, and there isn't any way of increasing income, you cut your expenditure.

Jaysus, it's not rocket science folks.

Some idiot on Matt Cooper is saying we should get the money off the billionaires. This man is a teacher, hopefully not an economics teacher.

The money isn't there to pay the wage bill. There's no other way of saying it.

Before anyone thinks I'm PS bashing, my wife is a Public Servent on over 60,000euro. She knows she has to take a paycut and although she's not happy, she accepts this. Her equivilant in NI earns £35,000.

You're wasting your time.
Everybody knows this, including teachers, but they'll never agree.
Anybody who could be convinced is already convinced.
The rest will just argue until they spontaneously combust.
We need a leader and we need one fast.

irish_bob

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

but then neither did 99% of those working in the private sector, so why should they pay more either?

public sector have made a collective descision that if your work in the private sector , you share guilt by association in some way with banks , developers etc

Dr Galen

ah yeah, i get ya, it's that old tarring everyone with the same brush thing isn't it?

like those in the private sector who say that all public sector workers are lazy, incompetant, greedy and only out for themselves, while sticking two fingers up at everyone else?

Sin1981

My bro works in a UK school ( has also had an insight to Irish schools). He says Irish teachers have it easy compared to their counterparts in England. There are a lot more checks and assessments over there, and yes, they earn a hell of a lot less!!!
So, I think teachers here (the moaning variety) should shut the F up!

Well done Lily09, pity the rest weren't like you.

This Government needs to slash their pay. Benchmark all PS staff against EU levels. no negociations, no arguments, just do it.

thehamo

did he happen to mention that each teacher over there has a teaching assistant in the room to help them out through the day and that the teacher pupil ratio for 2009 in primary classrooms was as low as 17/1? and yet Irish children year after year come out with a higher literacy rate? Checks and assessments mean jack sh*it, and the failing Brittish educational system is testament to that.

Hearsay from what your brother says is useless unless it can be backed up with fact? And what exactly is an "insight to Irish schools"?

Sin1981

he did his training in Ireland.

the availability or alocation of teaching assistants is a different topic. Incidentally, he said some kids walk in and spit at the teaching assistants.

Also, Uk schools are miles ahead when it comes to IT and sciences, educational psychology in particularly in primary education. It may not be perfect over there, but in many ways it's better than here.

there is no getting away from the fact that Irish teachers' pay and condition is far superior than that of the UK.

Any key?

Sin1981 wrote: »

the availability or alocation of teaching assistants is a different topic. Incidentally, he said some kids walk in and spit at the teaching assistants.



.

shocking:rolleyes: I doubt things like that ever happen to teachers here..........

thehamo

Hangon,

So what your saying is that they are much better equiped in the classroom in terms of IT and sciences, yet we still do a better job. If anything Irish teachers have to put up with no funding for these wonder materials. If we can come out with much higher standards in education without all of the funding English schools get, begs the question what could be achieved if we were funded properly.

If anything, your argument shows why Irish teachers should have their pay and conditions. They have to, and do, a lot more with a hell of a lot less.

And, its not a totally different topic all together, you were saying that English teachers have it much harder, maybe in checks and assessments, yes, but definitely not in the classroom.

jimmycrackcorm

thehamo wrote: »

did he happen to mention that each teacher over there has a teaching assistant in the room to help them out through the day?

Teachers need assistants?

Ste.phen

thehamo wrote: »

Hangon,

So what your saying is that they are much better equiped in the classroom in terms of IT and sciences, yet we still do a better job. If anything Irish teachers have to put up with no funding for these wonder materials. If we can come out with much higher standards in education without all of the funding English schools get, begs the question what could be achieved if we were funded properly.

That would only be true if there was a proven link between having these resources, and the final results.
He's basically just said that that isn't the case.

#15

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Teachers need assistants?

Not in Ireland.

There are special needs assistants. Which are a different thing altogether.

dan_d

The UK education system is not something we should be comparing ourselves to. Many aspects of it are - well, broken. Mostly it's just a bureaucratic nightmare, where teachers spend more time filling in forms devised by civil servants, than actually teaching.Try further afield, like France or Norway or somewhere.

bamboozle

irish_bob wrote: »

public sector have made a collective descision that if your work in the private sector , you share guilt by association in some way with banks , developers etc

while convenientely ignoring the role public bodies such as the financial regulator and central bank have played in this mess.

Bottom line, had the financial regulator being doing its job we would not have seen the capitulation of the financial markets in this country. we would not have seen developers allowed get ridiculous loans secured against negligable assets, we would not have seen banks being allowed give out 110% loans, we would not have seen banks and mortgage brokers give mortgages to people based on potential future earnings...

Dr. Greenthumb

thehamo wrote: »

did he happen to mention that each teacher over there has a teaching assistant in the room to help them out through the day and that the teacher pupil ratio for 2009 in primary classrooms was as low as 17/1? and yet Irish children year after year come out with a higher literacy rate? Checks and assessments mean jack sh*it, and the failing Brittish educational system is testament to that.

Hearsay from what your brother says is useless unless it can be backed up with fact? And what exactly is an "insight to Irish schools"?

can you back that up with facts / reference? i've being searching for a reference on education league tables but got bored.... probably due to the lack of decent teaching and an attention span lol

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/irish-universities-lagging-behind-in-global-rankings-1936573.html

thehamo

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

can you back that up with facts / reference? i've being searching for a reference on education league tables but got bored.... probably due to the lack of decent teaching and an attention span lol

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/irish-universities-lagging-behind-in-global-rankings-1936573.html

http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000844/SFR09_2009PDFv2.pdf page 23

http://www.vnc.org.uk/class/role2.htm describes how teaching assistants take over some of the rolls of the teacher, giving the teacher a much easier time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

themont85

One thing I always wondered about teachers in both primary school and secondary is this 'in service' day lark. Surely these days could be taken during the 2/3 summer months of holidays they get? They were always taken during term and screwed a lot of parents up with child minding and the likes. I remember my Maths teacher in secondary flat out refused to go to those days because they were a load of bull in his words and just disrupted school work.