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Standing up for Teachers.
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If you work it out , the average secondary school teacher gets almost €65 for every hour they work!!
Has anybody here ever seen a private sector job advertised with basic wages being €70 euro an hour!
Thats the average teacher , now imagine some of them are getting almost twice that!0 -
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Interested reading about the comments on IT in schools.
Just yesterday our school received like every other in the country a grant to pay for a laptop and data projector for each classroom, it averages out at around 1,250 euro per teacher.
This is a shocking waste of money in a country where a child in my class is on a 2/3 year waiting list for a psch assessment.It will not improve childrens IT skills as it is for the teacher to use.
Another way in which reform is needed in the public sector. I for one would be in favour of business managers in charge of some aspects of education.0 -
[/QUOTE]If anything Irish teachers have to put up with no funding for these wonder materials. If we can come out with much higher standards in education without all of the funding English schools get, begs the question what could be achieved if we were funded properly.
Maybe if wages were lower the department would have the money for the facilities?0 -
The attack on teaching.. (my profession) is an absolute disgrace. Everywhere you turn there is an attack on hard working teachers, many of whom, are young and spend many extra hours engaged in co-curricular activites. To address a few points.
Most young teachers take years to attain a full-time job. In my school it will be at least a 10 year wait. Many young teachers do not start on a full salary, like their European counterparts, but have to make do with anywhere as low as 30-50% of a full salary. Most RPT teachers in my school do not have full hours with the average being on 18 teaching hours or less. That about 80% of a teachers salary. Some young teachers are not lucky enough to even attain this RPT status and make do with supervision and part-time hours and are not paid for the summer months.
Comparison with the UK at present are misguided. The euro is at an unprecedented level against the pound sterling. In future when comparisons are made here, please take the long term average of EUR/GBP and also consider cost of living in the repsective countries.
Teachers (like similiarly educated people in the private sector) have an opportunity cost of tertiary education to consider. In my case it was five years. That is a considerable amount of money that a teacher starts behind a worker who went straight into employment from the L.Cert. Comfortably coming out at a figure of over €100K, taking lost wages, college costs, etc. into consideration. I acknowledege that this opportunity cost is not exclusive to teachers, but it does apply to them.
Teaching hours is another myth. The amount of extra curricular work is not related to pay unfortunately. In my school it is all the younger teachers who put in many many hours a week and extra days in the year to supervise and instruct these activities. Remember, we are the lower paid workers, with little or no job security. That only comes with a CID (contract of indefinitie duration)after fours years contracted). I have a CID this year, but it took me 7 years to get it.
Lets face it. Many similiarly qualified people in the private sector who spent years studying will make more money from their professions. Don't tell me that this is not the way. I now from my circle of friends, that engineers are on huge wages, many approaching a 3 figure salary. These guys are working for Wyeth, Schering Plough, Analog, Pfizer, etc. None of them have lost their job. Solicitors are currently in deep trouble, but their salaries in the good times were nearly double mine. Even my chippy, sparky, and brickie friends were making 10's of thousands more than me, for many, many years. Personally I came from teaching from banking, where I was offered a job as a Portfolio manager for 60K a year. Most bankers were on extravagant wages at that time (2003/2004) with bonuses running in the 10's of thousands.
Now, I personally believe that this savage effort to cut our wages is a tad misguided. Why cut? We are the only country not situnlating our way out of a recession. Our public finances are bad, but not dire. Yes our P&L is having a bad time as a country, but our balance sheet is still health. People are scaremongering about our €22B deficit, but €7B of that is once off payments to shore up Anglo Irish, and to the National Pension Reserve Fund. Our debt to GDP is still not even 50% (UK went to 300% in the 50's, 60's).
Cutting basic pay in a crude uninventive fashion will depress our economy further. What we need is operational efficiences and cut out the cushy jobs and allowances available in the public sector. Take for example teaching. An A post holder gets around €10-€15K a year extra and a reduction of 4 hours a week teaching. Their job could be as a year head, or coordinator of some activity or area in school. There is no more than 4 hours work in this (it appears to me), but yet they get paid extra for the same productivity. This is crazy. Yet our unions, which are dominated by the vested interests of older teachers are protecting these allowances.
Another examples of crazy public finance is the way teachers are paid extra by the exam commission to supervise and correct exams. I would build this into our conctracts, with every teacher having to correct some papers for the summer months. If you wanted to make it optional, then attach some of our remuneration package to this. If we opt out then dont pay us and deduct it from our salary.
I hate our unions, for their actions. Striking at this time is a disgrace and I voted against it. I dont believe cutting basic pay for teachers is the way out either, but there is definitly substantial room for savings outside of this.
But what really bugs me is those who have no idea of what the profession entails coming along and saying cut our wages. You can tar us all with the one brush and some teachers are on little pay and job security and work damn hard during the year.0 -
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@griffzino good post some excellent points there it is just a pity that more of your colleagues aren't as reasonable and sensible as you, to be fair I know some young teachers and they were against striking too but were forced into it. I don't agree that our budget deficit is nothing to worry about however and wages in general in this country went way out of control during the boom in every sector, and we need to reverse this trend. It is already happening right throughout the private sector so teachers aren't being "singled out for pay cuts" but I'm sure it must seem that way, some of your colleagues going on television complaining about a wage of 55k certainly doesn't endear people to the PS cause when people all over the country are suffering terrible job losses and cuts on a daily basis. You have to see both sides of the story and there is right and wrong on both sides.0
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@griffzino good post some excellent points there it is just a pity that more of your colleagues aren't as reasonable and sensible as you, to be fair I know some young teachers and they were against striking too but were forced into it. I don't agree that our budget deficit is nothing to worry about however and wages in general in this country went way out of control during the boom in every sector, and we need to reverse this trend. It is already happening right throughout the private sector so teachers aren't being "singled out for pay cuts" but I'm sure it must seem that way, some of your colleagues going on television complaining about a wage of 55k certainly doesn't endear people to the PS cause when people all over the country are suffering terrible job losses and cuts on a daily basis. You have to see both sides of the story and there is right and wrong on both sides.
Thanks Mickey.. I dont agree with cuts. In a reboot situation they would be ok, but unfortunately a lot of people in my generation 25-35 year olds have bought assets through the use of debt. We inflated our economy by creating loads of new debt based on the borrowers promise to repay from future earnings. These debts remain and if you keep cutting borrowers ability to pay then be prepared to stay in recession for a long long time. In the private sector a recession is like pruning a plant, businesses cut costs and strip out operational ineffiencies in order to come back stronger, leaner and more productive. That is what we need in our public sector, not blanket pay cuts. Believe it or not if we could rebalance our tax net and reduce unemployment through stimulation of our economy then accompanied by reform in Government spending (strip out inefficiencies) we'll be back on a current accoutn break even fairly quickly and will only need to borrow for capital expenditure.0 -
Agree with some of what you say but exports will never get back to where they should be while we have such inflated costs and wages, wages at the very least need to be frozen (and i mean frozen no increments and allowances) for a while. As I said before we were all paid too much and we now have one hell of a hangover from the debt binge. That would be marvelous if all the waste could be removed from the public service but we have all seen the unions in action so it is not going to happen. What choice do we have left but to cut pay. IMO public pay underpins wages in the rest of the economy and they need to come down, however I respect your argument and at least you are not claiming you didnt cause it so why should you pay for it, if i hear that again ill screamThanks Mickey.. I dont agree with cuts. In a reboot situation they would be ok, but unfortunately a lot of people in my generation 25-35 year olds have bought assets through the use of debt. We inflated our economy by creating loads of new debt based on the borrowers promise to repay from future earnings. These debts remain and if you keep cutting borrowers ability to pay then be prepared to stay in recession for a long long time. In the private sector a recession is like pruning a plant, businesses cut costs and strip out operational ineffiencies in order to come back stronger, leaner and more productive. That is what we need in our public sector, not blanket pay cuts. Believe it or not if we could rebalance our tax net and reduce unemployment through stimulation of our economy then accompanied by reform in Government spending (strip out inefficiencies) we'll be back on a current accoutn break even fairly quickly and will only need to borrow for capital expenditure.0 -
Just yesterday our school received like every other in the country a grant to pay for a laptop and data projector for each classroom, it averages out at around 1,250 euro per teacher.
This is a shocking waste of money in a country where a child in my class is on a 2/3 year waiting list for a psch assessment.It will not improve childrens IT skills as it is for the teacher to use.
Right, so ICT in schools is for the teachers? Nothing to do with the kids at all:rolleyes:Do you have any idea how far behind the rest of Europe we are in relation to ICT?
I hardly think that spending money on equipment that will benefit all the kids is a waste. There are far bigger wastes in the system. Any of your kids get a taxi to school?
I'd agree that the waiting lists for psychological assessments are disgraceful, but it's hardly a matter of choosing between them!0 -
Lets face it. Many similiarly qualified people in the private sector who spent years studying will make more money from their professions. Don't tell me that this is not the way. I now from my circle of friends, that engineers are on huge wages, many approaching a 3 figure salary. These guys are working for Wyeth, Schering Plough, Analog, Pfizer, etc. None of them have lost their job. Solicitors are currently in deep trouble, but their salaries in the good times were nearly double mine. Even my chippy, sparky, and brickie friends were making 10's of thousands more than me, for many, many years. Personally I came from teaching from banking, where I was offered a job as a Portfolio manager for 60K a year. Most bankers were on extravagant wages at that time (2003/2004) with bonuses running in the 10's of thousands.
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Good post. Im quoting the bit above because I think there is a similarity between what you were saying earlier about not starting out as a full time teacher. I think its much the same as it can be quite hard to get jobs with multinationals, in my experience at least coming out towards the end of the boom. My perception is that you have to be skilled or lucky to get such a job. I reckon in my field most people got into multinationals by first contracting around alot, something that can also have little job security (but possibly paid better than teaching during the boom, from a graduates perspective, I know it turns astronomical for mature workers).
I`m annoyed at the whole situation though, I think the unions are living a dream, they want no cuts whatso ever (but I guess thats the unions job ?). More to the point, the Government seems to be caving hard when they need to stand firm. In my eyes what is needed is change on multiple fronts, cuts to public sector high earners, more focus on efficiency and removal of dead wood, downsizing where possible and more care with expenses.
Instead what we seem to be getting is a stupid moratorium on employment, which blocks graduates and fresh blood from coming in, places stress on understaffed areas (And then you get a brain drain of people leaving). Then on top of it they add 12 days unpaid leave, which will probably piss people off as much as a paycut and cause even more under-staffing issues. It just seems like a crazy elaborate way to protect anybody whos doing well in the club, at the expense of the front line workers.0 -
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You cannot just freeze pay and expect everyone to be okay with that. Not with Ireland being one of the most expensive countries in the world to live inAgree with some of what you say but exports will never get back to where they should be while we have such inflated costs and wages, wages at the very least need to be frozen (and i mean frozen no increments and allowances) for a while. As I said before we were all paid too much and we now have one hell of a hangover from the debt binge. That would be marvelous if all the waste could be removed from the public service but we have all seen the unions in action so it is not going to happen. What choice do we have left but to cut pay. IMO public pay underpins wages in the rest of the economy and they need to come down, however I respect your argument and at least you are not claiming you didnt cause it so why should you pay for it, if i hear that again ill scream
Before we can do ANY more reduction in wages, or public spending, the cost of living must come down! Christ, we're worse than mussolini during WW2...0 -
You cannot just freeze pay and expect everyone to be okay with that. Not with Ireland being one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in
Before we can do ANY more reduction in wages, or public spending, the cost of living must come down! Christ, we're worse than mussolini during WW2...
The cost of living is tied to wages though, so you get a vicious circle. Printing money is the traditional solution, because everybody takes a paycut but they dont notice. Except we cant do that in the euro, as the germans and french arent doing that badly and dont need to print more euros.
Only solution I can see is stop-go paycuts, do a small cut, wait for it feed forward to cost of living, go again. Of course the population would go absolutely rabid at that idea, so I guess a pay freeze and pray is almost the only option left.0 -
Course what we then need to ask is when do our politicians recieve their paycuts and pay freezes, which is why FF are going to be out after this budget, unless we see cuts in pay of politicians, or even pay freezes...The cost of living is tied to wages though, so you get a vicious circle. Printing money is the traditional solution, because everybody takes a paycut but they dont notice. Except we cant do that in the euro, as the germans and french arent doing that badly and dont need to print more euros.
Only solution I can see is stop-go paycuts, do a small cut, wait for it feed forward to cost of living, go again. Of course the population would go absolutely rabid at that idea, so I guess a pay freeze and pray is almost the only option left.0 -
Deflation this year was over 5% and another 3-5% is forecast for next year. Agree Ireland is terribly expensive and that is part of the problem but prices are coming down, we see it every day in the supermarkets and right throughout the economy. Professional fees and many other areas still need to come down but that needs to happen too, otherwise lets keep increasing wages, killing our exports and ensuring it is so expensive to visit here that we kill our tourism industry too for good measure.You cannot just freeze pay and expect everyone to be okay with that. Not with Ireland being one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in
Before we can do ANY more reduction in wages, or public spending, the cost of living must come down! Christ, we're worse than mussolini during WW2...0 -
Course what we then need to ask is when do our politicians recieve their paycuts and pay freezes, which is why FF are going to be out after this budget, unless we see cuts in pay of politicians, or even pay freezes...
They get paid alot, they get paid too much infact, but they dont get paid the 20 odd billion were missing a year. What we need now is a shower of c**ts, if the country takes the pain now it could avert years and years of recession.0 -
As long as the unemployed are included in any long term stategy, we cannot just leave 500k people on the dole hoping they will emigrate, a jobs package or some back to work schemes need to be introduced, i am in full agreement with your assessment that a quick correction coming down especially hard on waste and inefficiency is the way to goThey get paid alot, they get paid too much infact, but they dont get paid the 20 odd billion were missing a year. What we need now is a shower of c**ts, if the country takes the pain now it could avert years and years of recession.0 -
there will be a pay freeze because they will strike again if they get a cut,so basically means unions run the country...0
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Apparently (and this is just something I've heard, so don't take this for complete fact), in Australia, people get the first 100$ of their dole for free, they then earn the rest of it by doing some work for the government or public, i.e. Fixing roads, cleaning local areas etc. Might be an idea to look into. After all a lot of people want to actually work, and this would give them an oppurtunity to, as well as letting us see a results from our social welfare.0
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I'm sure there may be efficiencies that can be made with regard to the cost of "backroom" staff of one sort or another.Thrifty in Cork wrote: »Think about the following scenario:
You run a company that has had to borrow more than they earned in the past 12 months. You have numerous divisions in the organisation that dont make money and in fact are the main culprit behind the need to borrow. They provide employment for some people but cost the rest of the country a fortune. Waht would you do if you were the Managing Director? Answer - cut the fat. The Govt depts that are swilling our money need to be reduced.
Perhaps then we wouldnt need to target nurses who get poor pay; teachers who educate the future generations and the guards who protect us.
I am not a teacher and i dont have huge sympathy for teachers but i dont think they should be the main target.
Cut the dept employment bills - they do nothing anyhow!!!
anyone agree or am i just crazy?
But this line doesn't convince me that, given the massive deficit, that there shouldn't be cuts for all of these sectors:Perhaps then we wouldnt need to target nurses who get poor pay; teachers who educate the future generations and the guards who protect us.
Who said that nurses are poorly paid? I think they work a 37 hour week now and this is being reduced to 35 hours (or already has been?)
And why does having a job which involves "educating the future generations" or "protect(ing) us" mean the salary can't or shouldn't be cut.
I have got this impression about some people's views before from listening to oral discussions - the argument seems to be some sort of ideological one that whatever salary a nurse or teacher or guard is on it, it either isn't enough or certainly isn't something that should be touched. It's a bit simplistic.
Anyway, normally I have no interest in what people are paid. But the country is in such a mess, spending way more than it is taking in, that I feel I have to give my tuppence'worth.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055750520Public Sector Earnings thanks to bandraoi
Teachers
1) Incremental Credit - A teacher who has studied for four years, starts on point 3 of the incremental credit scale. All teachers have 4 years of study.
2) For a degree + HDip you are awarded an additional E2561 (both degrees pass) - E6476 (both degrees honours. Someone with a doctoral degree gets more again.
The minimum starting salary for a teacher is therefore E37,468. The maximum starting salary for a teacher is E41,383.
One year contracts, maternity leave coverage etc. count towards incremental credit. Lack of permanency in your job does not affect your incremental credit.
For qualified teachers who work part time hours. A full teaching load of 22 hours per week, 33 weeks per year at the standard rate of €49.60 per hour, gives an annual FTE salary of E36,009.
Teaching salaries rise by an average of E1.5K a year for the first ten years. That figure excludes inflation related pay rises. They rise by an average of E1K a year thereafter until the top point of the salary scale is reached.
Nurses
The starting salary for a nurse is E31,875.
Additional payments are available for working from 6pm - 8pm (1+1/6)
8pm - 8am (1+1/4)
Saturdays - flat rate of E15 per day
Sundays and public holidays - 2
Based on a rota of 3/4 of time spent on day shifts (which incorporate some extra time hours) and 1/4 on night shifts, a nurse can expect to earn about 1.2 times their base salary before any additional overtime is taken on.
This brings the starting salary for a nurse to E39,000 or thereabouts. This rises to E57,000 after 13 years.
Garda
The starting salary for a Garda on attestation is E27,098. An additonal payment of E4162 in rent allowance is also payable, which brings the wage to E31,260
Additional payments are available for working from 6pm - 8pm (1+1/6)
8pm - 8am (1+1/4)
Saturdays - flat rate of E15 per day
Sundays and public holidays - 2
Based on a rota of 1 early, 1 late, 1 night, 1 off, a Garda can expect to earn about 20% higher than their base salary before any additional overtime is added.
This brings the starting salary for a Garda to E36,583 on attestation and E39K by the end of the first year, rising to E62K after 17 years service.0 -
Christ on a bike, is this a teacher moaning about the so-called abuse they're getting?? I really hope the IMF steps in soon and puts these deluded, jumped-up little morons in their place.0
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Christ on a bike, is this a teacher moaning about the so-called abuse they're getting?? I really hope the IMF steps in soon and puts these deluded, jumped-up little morons in their place.
You were probably one of those in class who abuse the teacher and only contribute disruption.0 -
Christ on a bike, is this a teacher moaning about the so-called abuse they're getting?? I really hope the IMF steps in soon and puts these deluded, jumped-up little morons in their place.
Why the hell would the IMF step in at this stage? Please explain?
You are typical of the uneducated, scaremongering, public sector lynch mob that belong in medieval times.
As for calling my fellow colleagues 'jumped up little morons'. That is a baseless pathetic comment. May I ask what you do for a living and your background?0 -
Careful what you wish for! This attitude seems to be very prevalent lately people hoping the IMF will come in and sort everything in one fell swoop, it doesn't work like that. They will only be called if nobody else will lend to us and thats a while away yet, they don't hand you a free blank cheque either all they will do is give us a very expensive bridging loan which will mean higher taxes for everybody, in exchange for implementing certain policies, cutting PS pay may be one condition among others but I think they call that cutting off your nose to spite your face. It really would be best for everyone if we could sort our own problems with everybody making a fair contribution.Christ on a bike, is this a teacher moaning about the so-called abuse they're getting?? I really hope the IMF steps in soon and puts these deluded, jumped-up little morons in their place.0 -
Why the hell would the IMF step in at this stage? Please explain?
You are typical of the uneducated, scaremongering, public sector lynch mob that belong in medieval times.
As for calling my fellow colleagues 'jumped up little morons'. That is a baseless pathetic comment. May I ask what you do for a living and your background?
WHY would they step in?? Have you been living under a rock for the past 12 months, mate? Let me summarise it for you, I'll try to keep this simple: the country is broke. We have been borrowing ridiculous amounts of money to continue to pay public sector wages that were grossly inflated even at the height of the "boom". These wages must be cut NOW. That there is even a debate about this shows you how utterly incompetent our public representatives are. The comment 'jumped up little morons' I think accurately reflects the opinion of the majority of taxpayers when it comes to teachers in particular and public sector workers in general. This sense of self-entitlement no matter what the financial situation, as well as the self-righteous indignation that spews forth at every opportunity fully justifies that comment.0 -
I don't think any reasonable and unbiased person would disagree thet PS wages and teachers especially are overpaid, but its human nature to try and hold onto what you have and we would all probably do the same. I don't buy the argument that we need to keep wages high because they have big mortgages, many people bought second homes etc for fear that they would miss out on the benefits of owning a propert portfolio, we cannot be expected to sustain wages to pay for their foolisness. They also argue that we'd be taking money out of the economy and they would cut back spending, however reports show people are now saving like never before and they are only spending on bare essentials, how could it get any worse, they'd have a bit less to save thats all. Jumped up little morons however is very unfair, they are trying to protect their personal income and you'd do the same, many of us have taken a hit and some PS workers have a very poor attitude I admit but personal insults is no way to argue any point you have.WHY would they step in?? Have you been living under a rock for the past 12 months, mate? Let me summarise it for you, I'll try to keep this simple: the country is broke. We have been borrowing ridiculous amounts of money to continue to pay public sector wages that were grossly inflated even at the height of the "boom". These wages must be cut NOW. That there is even a debate about this shows you how utterly incompetent our public representatives are. The comment 'jumped up little morons' I think accurately reflects the opinion of the majority of taxpayers when it comes to teachers in particular and public sector workers in general. This sense of self-entitlement no matter what the financial situation, as well as the self-righteous indignation that spews forth at every opportunity fully justifies that comment.0 -
See below IMF say it is very unlikely they will be called into Ireland and I tend to agree, we need to stop bickering and get on with what needs to be done.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1204/breaking34.htm0 -
WHY would they step in?? Have you been living under a rock for the past 12 months, mate? Let me summarise it for you, I'll try to keep this simple: the country is broke. We have been borrowing ridiculous amounts of money to continue to pay public sector wages that were grossly inflated even at the height of the "boom". These wages must be cut NOW. That there is even a debate about this shows you how utterly incompetent our public representatives are. The comment 'jumped up little morons' I think accurately reflects the opinion of the majority of taxpayers when it comes to teachers in particular and public sector workers in general. This sense of self-entitlement no matter what the financial situation, as well as the self-righteous indignation that spews forth at every opportunity fully justifies that comment.
I have a couple of things to add about this:
1. The IMF will not come in (well 99% sure they will not). The EU would not allow them into a Euro area country.
2. I don't believe anyone (apart from a tiny tiny minority) believes there must not be cuts. It is just how these cuts are brought in is what is being discussed. You are claiming wages must be cut, the Unions are leaning towards services, others have talked about redundancies. This is what the negotiations are about. Don't pay too much attention to what is said publically as they are hardly going to show their hand at this stage.0 -
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MaceFace wrote:You are claiming wages must be cut, the Unions are leaning towards services, others have talked about redundancies.
And the Government is calling for a 1.3bn reduction in wages, €1bn reduction in social welfare and €1.7bn reduction in services. Seems fair enough to me.0
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