Standing up for Teachers.

OMD

doc_17 wrote: »

Lots of resentment, hate and anger floating about in some of these posts regarding teachers!!

There is certainly none of this from me. However I do get annoyed by teachers on this forum whinging about how hard they work and how badly they have been treated. (2 threads at least started by teachers, on this topic currently active)
Even your last post saying that the days off were, like the pay cuts, given by "decree" and that we should "get over it". Have you posted on this forum telling teachers complaining about pay cuts to "get over it".

On my point that many/most teachers have gotten what they wanted this year at least. Days off in lieu of a pay cut. Will that stop the whinging? Will that stop the threat of industrial action?

DeirdreD

Think those 'days off' will have to be made up. Decision to be made at local level if during easter, summer, mid term etc

woodseb

might be a bit off-topic but did anyone see that school documentary on RTE last night when the teachers were getting their pay check after the pension levy and one teacher was complaining that there are some people down EUR500-600 and 'this can't go on'

am i wrong in thinking that either

a) he had a massive salary to have that large a cut
b) he's was economical with the true wrt to the figures

beeno67

woodseb wrote: »

might be a bit off-topic but did anyone see that school documentary on RTE last night when the teachers were getting their pay check after the pension levy and one teacher was complaining that there are some people down EUR500-600 and 'this can't go on'

am i wrong in thinking that either

a) he had a massive salary to have that large a cut
b) he's was economical with the true wrt to the figures

A little test you can try on any public sector worker.
Ask them how much they earn and they will tell you the net amount after pension contribution, tax and other deductions.
Ask them how much there pay has been cut recently and they will give you the gross amount before deductions. Usually they add pay cut & pension levy together and then take that off gross salary.

#15

OMD wrote: »

On my point that many/most teachers have gotten what they wanted this year at least. Days off in lieu of a pay cut. Will that stop the whinging? Will that stop the threat of industrial action?

Its not exactly getting what they wanted though is it? Most would be happy to work these few days and not have a pay cut. Rather than not work and get a pay cut.

I'm not a union member and I didn't support industrial action, so I can understand some of your views OMD. Teachers often come across as whinging and out of touch.
It is something that needs to improve.

doc_17

OMD wrote: »

There is certainly none of this from me. However I do get annoyed by teachers on this forum whinging ............................Will that stop the whinging? Will that stop the threat of industrial action?

sorry, not hate, anger or resentment. just annoyance then. about all the whinging!!

Just wondering what your stake is in this. I am a teacher. What makes you so annoyed with teachers? Did you just enter the thread to get annoyed by the teachers? Look at the thread title "In defence of teachers". What were you expecting the thread to be about? If they want to blow of some steam let them. Why come in to be "annoyed". Surely judging by that title you knew what was gonna be discussed here but came in anyway so it's like you were looking to be annoyed, post the talking points and get a reaction.

If the thread was about somthing else but then hi-jacked by teachers giving out then I would understand your annoyance.

And as you quite rightly pointed out there are other forums open for people, like the dozens or so whose function it is to give out (rightly or wrongly) about the PS. So if you're suggesting anyone should go to any other forum then maybe its yourself!!

rainbowtrout

woodseb wrote: »

might be a bit off-topic but did anyone see that school documentary on RTE last night when the teachers were getting their pay check after the pension levy and one teacher was complaining that there are some people down EUR500-600 and 'this can't go on'

am i wrong in thinking that either

a) he had a massive salary to have that large a cut
b) he's was economical with the true wrt to the figures

a) he's probably at the top end of the scale and teaching close to 40 years.
b) there are a number of teachers in my staffroom who had similar pay cuts.

rainbowtrout

beeno67 wrote: »

A little test you can try on any public sector worker.
Ask them how much they earn and they will tell you the net amount after pension contribution, tax and other deductions.
Ask them how much there pay has been cut recently and they will give you the gross amount before deductions. Usually they add pay cut & pension levy together and then take that off gross salary.

Generalise much?

beeno67

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Generalise much?

Of course I am. But try it and see.

woodseb

rainbowtrout wrote: »

a) he's probably at the top end of the scale and teaching close to 40 years.
b) there are a number of teachers in my staffroom who had similar pay cuts.

thanks - is that 500/600 a year or a month - do you know what type of gross salary that would be

just trying to figure out how it is possible

amen

a) he's probably at the top end of the scale and teaching close to 40 years.

he doesn't have to be.

saying he is teaching 10 years then according to http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html he would be on 43,612 a year. Say he has an Honours Degree which most teachers seem to have thenthat an extra 4,918 a year and an Hons Hdip for an extra 1,200 a year. That gives a grand salary of 49,764.
If has had a 10% cut including pension payment then thats a reducation of 408 a month.

This idea that it takes years for teachers for good money is nonsense. You can see the salary scale above. And even if it takes time for your salary to increase name any job where your salary increases just because you are working in it longer? There are many private sector workers who do not get a guaranteed increase each year.

kippy

Theres been a way to many generalisations and grouping together of sectors/professions in this and other threads in the past 18 months.
Not all teaching jobs are the same,
All jobs in the public sector arent the same,
All jobs in the private sector arent the same,
Theres no one sector at fault.

I dont think teachers nor anyone else for that matter minds paycuts so long as the cost of living goes down proportionately and they can see that fairness is being metted out in the country. However when you see mass bailouts given to the banks and higher paid public and private sector seemingly escape with little or no loss to them it irks people. It irks teachers, it irks private sector and unemployed.
The relatively little guy/paye earner gets shafted which the big guys make all the money in the good times and have their losses protected by the tax payer in the bad times.
Then the teachers/public sector workers/private sector workers see SOME on the dole taking home more money that they do, thats wrong and something has to be done about it.

Theres a lot of animosity and anger out there, however its not been directed at the right people. Bankers, politicians, even some decisions we've made as citizens need serious investigation.
We need to COMPLETELY overhaul the financial services sector, theres no sign of this. If the banks ARE THAT CRITICAL state own the whole lot of them.
We need to COMPLETELY overhaul the regulatory system. No sign of that.
We need to overhaul out political representation system, we've far too many politicians and associated staff for a country so small. Local politics should stay local and national poloticians should worry about national matters.
We need to streamling processes and procedures in the Public sector and over time phase out unneeded work/jobs and replace them with better procedures/technology and services that will help the citizens and private businesses of this country.
We all need to accept that 10 or so years of prosperity have been wiped out in less than 2 and we wont get to that level again.
Theres lots more we need to do as a country, make better use of natural resources, invest more in communities, help each other, create more home grown jobs etc etc

None of these things are going to get started off by directing our anger at teachers/private/public/dolers etc etc.




The sad and sorry thing is I dont think we'll learn shag all from this mess and the same thing will happen again in 20 years or so.

woodseb

amen wrote: »

he doesn't have to be.

saying he is teaching 10 years then according to http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html he would be on 43,612 a year. Say he has an Honours Degree which most teachers seem to have thenthat an extra 4,918 a year and an Hons Hdip for an extra 1,200 a year. That gives a grand salary of 49,764.
If has had a 10% cut including pension payment then thats a reducation of 408 a month.

this case was before the pay cut though - only the pension levy

rainbowtrout

woodseb wrote: »

thanks - is that 500/600 a year or a month - do you know what type of gross salary that would be

just trying to figure out how it is possible

Per month. Some teachers and I'd better give a very specific description, who are on full hours, permanent, have an honours degree, an honours HDip, have an assistant principals post and are teaching 35+ years, could be earning between 75-80K gross. Now before the anti-public sector bandwagon jump on that and proclaim, 'Down with teachers, give them all massive paycuts, they're earning far too much etc etc' That is not all teachers. But some at the other end of their careers who have gained a promotion in the school would be on in or around that. Our original pension contribution was 6.5%, that has doubled approximately. So it's very possible.

Some people seem to forget that free education came in at the end of the 1960s and a lot of people went into teaching in the late 60s/early 70s. They stayed in the profession all their lives and are now at the other end, close to retirement, and on the top of the scale salary wise. If you go into many staffrooms in the country you will see an ageing staff profile. In my school we've had a good few retirements in the last couple of years and I'd say we'll have a few more this year with the budget. While i'm not disputing that the starting wage is a decent wage, you get that wage if you are on full hours, if you get a contract for a third of those hours you only get a third of the wage, which is something a lot of people find hard to comprehend. Because a teacher is employed by a school does not mean they are getting a full wage.

rainbowtrout

amen wrote: »

he doesn't have to be.

saying he is teaching 10 years then according to http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html he would be on 43,612 a year. Say he has an Honours Degree which most teachers seem to have thenthat an extra 4,918 a year and an Hons Hdip for an extra 1,200 a year. That gives a grand salary of 49,764.
If has had a 10% cut including pension payment then thats a reducation of 408 a month.

This idea that it takes years for teachers for good money is nonsense. You can see the salary scale above. And even if it takes time for your salary to increase name any job where your salary increases just because you are working in it longer? There are many private sector workers who do not get a guaranteed increase each year.

Again, all assuming that teacher is on full hours, which many young teachers, new to the profession are not. 22 hours is full time, if you teach 22 hours you get what you have described above. If you are contracted to teach 11 hours, you get half of what you described above. Just because a person is employed by a school does not mean they are on full hours - a common misconception.
There is a teacher in my school who has 6 hours a week.

woodseb

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Per month. Some teachers and I'd better give a very specific description, who are on full hours, permanent, have an honours degree, an honours HDip, have an assistant principals post and are teaching 35+ years, could be earning between 75-80K gross. Now before the anti-public sector bandwagon jump on that and proclaim, 'Down with teachers, give them all massive paycuts, they're earning far too much etc etc' That is not all teachers. But some at the other end of their careers who have gained a promotion in the school would be on in or around that. Our original pension contribution was 6.5%, that has doubled approximately. So it's very possible.

Some people seem to forget that free education came in at the end of the 1960s and a lot of people went into teaching in the late 60s/early 70s. They stayed in the profession all their lives and are now at the other end, close to retirement, and on the top of the scale salary wise. If you go into many staffrooms in the country you will see an ageing staff profile. In my school we've had a good few retirements in the last couple of years and I'd say we'll have a few more this year with the budget. While i'm not disputing that the starting wage is a decent wage, you get that wage if you are on full hours, if you get a contract for a third of those hours you only get a third of the wage, which is something a lot of people find hard to comprehend. Because a teacher is employed by a school does not mean they are getting a full wage.

thanks for the clarification

i can't help the impression i got that the guy was poormouthing his reduction in salary when he was still on a high wage and would be benefitting from his excellent pension very soon....i suppose it is a difference of perspective

OMD

woodseb wrote: »

might be a bit off-topic but did anyone see that school documentary on RTE last night when the teachers were getting their pay check after the pension levy and one teacher was complaining that there are some people down EUR500-600 and 'this can't go on'

am i wrong in thinking that either

a) he had a massive salary to have that large a cut
b) he's was economical with the true wrt to the figures

If the pension cut cost him/her 600 a month that means he/she was earning €85,000 a year on which a pension levy of 8.5% was charged.

MysticalRain

doc_17 wrote: »

sorry, not hate, anger or resentment. just annoyance then. about all the whinging!!

Just wondering what your stake is in this. I am a teacher. What makes you so annoyed with teachers? Did you just enter the thread to get annoyed by the teachers? Look at the thread title "In defence of teachers". What were you expecting the thread to be about? If they want to blow of some steam let them. Why come in to be "annoyed". Surely judging by that title you knew what was gonna be discussed here but came in anyway so it's like you were looking to be annoyed, post the talking points and get a reaction.

If the thread was about somthing else but then hi-jacked by teachers giving out then I would understand your annoyance.

And as you quite rightly pointed out there are other forums open for people, like the dozens or so whose function it is to give out (rightly or wrongly) about the PS. So if you're suggesting anyone should go to any other forum then maybe its yourself!!

I don't think anybody here would begrudge a teacher who is good at his/her job from earning a decent wage. What gets people's goat up is the Marie Antoinette attitude that some teachers have. People generally don't have much sympathy for someone on 60K complaining about how how much hardship they are suffering just because they've had a few percentage points knocked off their salary. Teachers are still on a damn good wage despite the cutbacks and have total job security regardless of their actual ability, plus a Rolls-Royce pension to boot. Any sensible person in that position in the current economic climate would simply shut up and be thankful for what they have. I know not all teachers are like that, especially the younger generation. But there is a very vocal subset of teachers, aided and abetted by their unions, that cannot see beyond their own narrow self-interest.

doc_17

MysticalRain wrote: »

I don't think anybody here would begrudge a teacher who is good at his/her job from earning a decent wage. What gets people's goat up is the Marie Antoinette attitude that some teachers have. People generally don't have much sympathy for someone on 60K complaining about how how much hardship they are suffering just because they've had a few percentage points knocked off their salary. Teachers are still on a damn good wage despite the cutbacks and have total job security regardless of their actual ability, plus a Rolls-Royce pension to boot. Any sensible person in that position in the current economic climate would simply shut up and be thankful for what they have. I know not all teachers are like that, especially the younger generation. But there is a very vocal subset of teachers, aided and abetted by their unions, that cannot see beyond their own narrow self-interest.

I agree with everything you just said there. Except one thing. They shouldn't just "shut up". Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they should shut up. What sort of dumb statement is that!!! Everybody has the right to their opinion, whether you like it or not. Sorry to be the one to have to tell you that!!

amen

we'll have a few more this year with the budget.

why ? after all your take home pay has been reduced but not your gross salaray. Taking the example from earlier your gross salary last year would be 49,000 and your gross salary this year would also be 49,000.(as this is point 10 you would then be getting your annual increment as these have not been stopped so you gross salary next year would be more). Anyone going on pension would then bet getting a pension of 1/2 of final GROSS salary not net.

, if you get a contract for a third of those hours you only get a third of the wage, which is something a lot of people find hard to comprehend. Because a teacher is employed by a school does not mean they are getting a full wage.

same as anyone else in the private sector who works on contract you only get paid the hours you work.

There is a teacher in my school who has 6 hours a week

Where are your unions? They should be campaiging to highlight the numbers of teachers working 6,11,15,16 hours each week.

Btw even working 6 hours a week thats approx 280 per week according to the TUI. Thats more then the dole for the 6 hours work.

Is that person working 6 hours by choice?

What about the number of retired teachers performing sub work in schools?

As for the penions levy I pay 10% of my salary to a defined contribution plan and there is no way I am ever going to get a pension like that of a teacher.

there are 250,000 people who used to work in private sector and through no fault of their own no longer have a job. A little bit of solidarity from those who have jobs won't hurt. Better to have a salary reduction than no job.

Wait till next years budget then we will really feel the hurt both private/public after all there is still a 20 billion defecit for this year.

FlutterinBantam

doc_17 wrote: »

I agree with everything you just said there. Except one thing. They shouldn't just "shut up". Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they should shut up. What sort of dumb statement is that!!! Everybody has the right to their opinion, whether you like it or not. Sorry to be the one to have to tell you that!!

Sure everyone has the right to their opinion, but don't try and take me for an idiot when you go bleating about the 'hardship' you are enduring, with your pension rights and job security and time off.

I'll probably say what most people would say, STFU.

sceptre

On this forum, there are very few people who have the authority to tell another forum user to shut up. And those that have the authority to do so have the good sense and politeness not to do it. Please bear this in mind.

Regardless of whether the above comment is aimed at a fellow forum member or not (interpretation could go either way), little bit of calm down from recent posters please. That's a plural for a reason. Thank you.

/mod

doc_17

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Sure everyone has the right to their opinion, but don't try and take me for an idiot when you go bleating about the 'hardship' you are enduring, with your pension rights and job security and time off.

I'll probably say what most people would say, STFU.

Please read the post. If you find me anywhere mentioning the word hardship or saying teachers have it sooo bad i'll eat my shorts. I said I agreed with the last posters main points which were reduced pay but job security etc.....so why tell me to STFU? I just think the level of debate can go above telling people to shut up. Am I wrong? I must be. I won't bother with an acronym. I have manners. bye

FlutterinBantam

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Sure everyone has the right to their opinion, but don't try and take me for an idiot when you go bleating about the 'hardship' you are enduring, with your pension rights and job security and time off.

I'll probably say what most people would say, STFU.

I'm sorry. that post was badly constructed. My fault.

I was referring to the teachers leaders and Unions,certainly not the poster.

I knew it was a bit ambigious and should have made that clear.

fair play to sceptre for making the correct interpenetration.

I know enough not to tell other posters to shut up.

Apologies to Doc 17.

OMD

doc_17 wrote: »

I agree with everything you just said there. Except one thing. They shouldn't just "shut up". Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they should shut up. What sort of dumb statement is that!!!

It is not a dumb statement. It is his opinion.

doc_17 wrote: »

Everybody has the right to their opinion, whether you like it or not. Sorry to be the one to have to tell you that!!

Japer

MysticalRain wrote: »

What gets people's goat up is the Marie Antoinette attitude that some teachers have. People generally don't have much sympathy for someone on 60K complaining about how how much hardship they are suffering just because they've had a few percentage points knocked off their salary. Teachers are still on a damn good wage despite the cutbacks and have total job security regardless of their actual ability, plus a Rolls-Royce pension to boot. Any sensible person in that position in the current economic climate would simply shut up and be thankful for what they have. I know not all teachers are like that, especially the younger generation. But there is a very vocal subset of teachers, aided and abetted by their unions, that cannot see beyond their own narrow self-interest.

Well said. I heard a teacher on the TV the other night whinging about "losing" hundreds of euro. It made me sick.

kippy

Japer wrote: »

Well said. I heard a teacher on the TV the other night whinging about "losing" hundreds of euro. It made me sick.

Can I ask why it made you sick?

doc_17

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I'm sorry. that post was badly constructed. My fault.

I was referring to the teachers leaders and Unions,certainly not the poster.

I knew it was a bit ambigious and should have made that clear.

fair play to sceptre for making the correct interpenetration.

I know enough not to tell other posters to shut up.

Apologies to Doc 17.

Fair play

doc_17

OMD wrote: »

It is not a dumb statement. It is his opinion.

Apoloogies for use of the word dumb.

Japer

kippy wrote: »

Can I ask why it made you sick?

Because they are so overpaid, with days off due to a half inch of snow, on holidays half the year, full job security and with a golden pension the stuff lottery winners dream of. Whinging about "losing" hundreds of euro due to a few per cent cut just shows how high their pay is to begin with, in this era of 5% deflation.