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Three women challenging Irish abortion law in Europe...

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  • 30-11-2009 4:09am
    #1
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1130/1224259710533.html

    Here we have three women challenging Irish legislation on abortion, I'd love to know what those who demanded a yes on Lisbon from the rest of us would think of this, on the basis that we were apparently given clear guarantees in relation to this particular subject and the clear possibility that we could have the European Court of Human Rights instructing us to provide for abortion in Ireland if this claim is upheld, as has happened in Poland...


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    #2
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1130/1224259710533.html

    Here we have three women challenging Irish legislation on abortion, I'd love to know what those who demanded a yes on Lisbon from the rest of us would think of this, on the basis that we were apparently given clear guarantees in relation to this particular subject and the clear possibility that we could have the European Court of Human Rights instructing us to provide for abortion in Ireland if this claim is upheld, as has happened in Poland...

    We would probably point out, once again, that the European Court of Human Rights is entirely separate from the EU. It's part of the Council of Europe, which is also separate from the EU. EU treaties like Lisbon therefore have nothing whatsoever to do with the ECHR's rulings.

    For future reference:

    1; "European Court of Justice" is the court that interprets EU treaties, and is part of the EU. Established 1952, sits in Luxembourg.

    2. "European Court of Human Rights" is the legal arm of the Council of Europe, and nothing to do with the EU. Established 1950, sits in Strasbourg.

    Better luck next time.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #3
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    We would probably point out, once again, that the European Court of Human Rights is entirely separate from the EU. It's part of the Council of Europe, which is also separate from the EU. EU treaties like Lisbon therefore have nothing whatsoever to do with the ECHR's rulings.

    For future reference:

    1; "European Court of Justice" is the court that interprets EU treaties, and is part of the EU. Established 1952, sits in Luxembourg.

    2. "European Court of Human Rights" is the legal arm of the Council of Europe, and nothing to do with the EU. Established 1950, sits in Strasbourg.

    Better luck next time.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Regardless of what it is or where it is, is the article in the times incorrect when it says that the outcome in this case could be that we can be told to provide for abortion on demand in Ireland???


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    #4
    Pygmalion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,082 ✭✭✭Pygmalion


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Regardless of what it is or where it is, is the article in the times incorrect when it says that the outcome in this case could be that we can be told to provide for abortion on demand in Ireland???

    A council set up in 1950 over-ruling our constitution. Which can't even be overruled by the Dáil outside of a state of emergency.
    I wish them good luck with that.


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    #5
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Regardless of what it is or where it is, is the article in the times incorrect when it says that the outcome in this case could be that we can be told to provide for abortion on demand in Ireland???

    Presuming that the women win their case, the court would not tell "us" anything, rather it would rule that the current Irish laws on abortion results in the women being denied their human rights and that the women have the right to abortion in the circumstances of the case.

    The presumption then is that Ireland wants to have the highest human rights standards possible and would voluntarily modify its laws to bring them into line with the judgement.

    Should the Oireachtas ignore the ruling, which I am sure they'd love to do, you'll find it being quoted as precedent in future cases at the Supreme Court, and the Justices probably will take it on board. After all, in the X case, the Supreme Court seemed to rule that a woman has a right to abortion here in certain restrictive circumstances. As such, from a legal perspective, there could well be a minor gap between the Supreme Court's position and the ECHR's after such a potential ruling.

    Politically speaking, I'd say the politicans and most of the electorate would rather put their hands in a blender then have to face into another argument about anything related to abortion.

    Either way though, it has nothing to do with the EU, the Lisbon Treaty and/or the Lisbon Treaty guarentee on abortion as the Council of Europe and the ECHR are totally different organisations.


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    #6
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Regardless of what it is or where it is, is the article in the times incorrect when it says that the outcome in this case could be that we can be told to provide for abortion on demand in Ireland???

    As View says, the ECHR could rule that Ireland was denying human rights to the women, and could award them damages. Further, if the women are successful, then to avoid further damages being awarded - since any other woman could then essentially apply to the Court for a similar judgement - Ireland would need to change its legislation. However, a change to the legislation would involve a referendum.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #7
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    I'd love if abortion was brought into this country, this won't affect it though :/


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    #8
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    A few points:

    - This has nothing to do with the EU, let alone the Lisbon Treaty.

    - The EU cannot alter Ireland's abortion law because of a protocol in the Maastricht Treaty specifically protecting Article 43.3.3 of the Irish Constitution, and also because of a general lack of competence; a situation there is no political will in Europe to change.

    - In the event of the European Court of Human Rights (which is not the European Court of Justice) ruling that Ireland's abortion laws are incompatible with the ECHR, the legal validity of the laws will remain unaffected. The Taoiseach is required to bring the issue to the attention of both houses of the Oireachtas within (I think) three weeks, but they are not obliged to do anything about it. The applicants may be entitled to compensation from the Irish government, though I believe this is at the discretion of the attorney general.

    - Any attempt to allow abortion in Ireland would require a change to the Irish Constitution; there is no mechanism whatsoever in existence to override the pro-life guarantee in the Constitution by any means. Such a change to the Constitution, whether a result of political pressure in Ireland or from abroad, or a result of changes to the legal structure of the EU, or any other cause or causes, will always require a referendum.

    - This **** is getting old.


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