Diarmuid Doyle in the Tribune re Public Sector

brianthebard

bamboozle wrote: »

+1, hence the unions trying to create this divide between public and private sectors placing the blame squarely at the door of the private sector...

What do you mean the unions are creating this divide? That's nonsense, does SIPTU not represent both public and private sector workers anymore?

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

What do you mean the unions are creating this divide? That's nonsense, does SIPTU not represent both public and private sector workers anymore?

Do we have to post the figures on Union membership?

When is it going to sink in that Unions are the majority in the Public Sector and a minority in the Private Sector.

brianthebard

You seem to have misunderstood my point.

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

You seem to have misunderstood my point.

Not at all.

Unions represent a minority in the Private Sector. It may seem they represent the majority of workers, if it's the Public Sector.

It is self affirming, not the reality and partly to blame for the divide.

P. Breathnach

K-9 wrote: »

I'm still not convinced by that. Lower paid workers don't really get any benefit from Public Sector pensions and looking at Civil Servant pay rates, I don't see it. Maybe Health and Education have higher paid Administrators...

Frankly, your argument for rejecting the ESRI study is a little thin.

TGPS

K-9 wrote: »

And let us not forget who created the boom that enabled benchmarking and the pay rises.

Ken Whitaker?

.....noted economist and public servant.....

K-9

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Frankly, your argument for rejecting the ESRI study is a little thin.

Not rejecting it at all.

TGPS wrote: »

Ken Whitaker?

.....noted economist and public servant.....

That would be it al right! :rolleyes: What has changed in the last 50 years?

The_Honeybadger

K-9 wrote: »

I'm still not convinced by that. Lower paid workers don't really get any benefit from Public Sector pensions and looking at Civil Servant pay rates, I don't see it. Maybe Health and Education have higher paid Administrators.

Take the example of a clerical worker after 6-8 years service would be on 30k +. Many clerical workers don't have qualifications as such and would probably be the equivelent of an office assistant in private sector. I don't know any office assistants in the private sector on 30k do you? Increments and so on drive the wages up over time. Take into account their better holidays, guaranteed jobs & pension and it's a huge benefit. None of these people are well off obviously but they're surely alot better off than their counterparts in the private sector. Maybe I'm wrong but thats my take on it.

rossithelegend

mickeyk wrote: »

Take the example of a clerical worker after 6-8 years service would be on 30k +. Many clerical workers don't have qualifications as such and would probably be the equivelent of an office assistant in private sector. I don't know any office assistants in the private sector on 30k do you? Increments and so on drive the wages up over time. Take into account their better holidays, guaranteed jobs & pension and it's a huge benefit. None of these people are well off obviously but they're surely alot better off than their counterparts in the private sector. Maybe I'm wrong but thats my take on it.

Not quite there are plenty of people in the public service with 3rd level degrees, skills and qualifications but unfortunately the antiquated promotion system in place means they may be over looked and remain on a lower level grade. Also there is a cap on each scale so it's not sure fire that the wages will increase every year!

diverdriver

Here we go again, the self perpetuating myth of the demonisation of the public service workers and blaming them for the recession.

I'm sorry who exactly is doing this? I want references, I want evidence in writing of people saying this recession was caused by the public sector?

Diarmuid Doyle apparently has bought into this too. Where is is coming from?

The truth is that there is no demonisation of the PS. No one blames the PS for the recession. It's a propaganda ploy by the unions.

I'm sure one or two of you would describe me as a 'public service basher'. That's a popular one at the moment. But my criticism of the total lack of realism demonstrated by the unions and their members on their marches and strikes. The apparent inability to grasp that no matter whose fault it is there is no longer the tax money to pay them. Virtually everyone here on this website holds a similar view. Few if any think the PS caused or an in fact practising demons.

But it seems you can add your own union leades to the list now with the 'not a pay cut', unpaid leave proposal.

But keep this up, keep going on strike and we'll soon see how people will actually turn against the PS. Time will tell.

ronbyrne2005

rossithelegend wrote: »

Not quite there are plenty of people in the public service with 3rd level degrees, skills and qualifications but unfortunately the antiquated promotion system in place means they may be over looked and remain on a lower level grade. Also there is a cap on each scale so it's not sure fire that the wages will increase every year!

In private sector you get paid for the job you do not the qualifications you hold. If someone with a philosophy degree goes for clerical position in private sector his degree is irrelevant and he gets nothin extra for it.

Riskymove

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

In private sector you get paid for the job you do not the qualifications you hold. If someone with a philosophy degree goes for clerical position in private sector his degree is irrelevant and he gets nothin extra for it.

but of course in the public sector a clerical officer gets extra for having a degree, right?.....right?:rolleyes:

brianthebard

K-9 wrote: »

Not at all.

Unions represent a minority in the Private Sector. It may seem they represent the majority of workers, if it's the Public Sector.

It is self affirming, not the reality and partly to blame for the divide.

No, you still don't understand my point.

The_Honeybadger

rossithelegend wrote: »

Not quite there are plenty of people in the public service with 3rd level degrees, skills and qualifications but unfortunately the antiquated promotion system in place means they may be over looked and remain on a lower level grade. Also there is a cap on each scale so it's not sure fire that the wages will increase every year!

Of course there are public servants with degrees and good qualifications, but I was referring specifically to clerical officers as an example, I doubt 3rd level degrees are the norm at that level, if they are then have these people no ambition? Cap on salary at CO level is 37k, again i reiterate my point that people doing similar work in the private sector would never reach that salary. I'm not a public service "basher" but thats simply the truth. The secretary in my company gets paid about 23k and has been there 4 years for example, how much better off would she be in the civil service.

rossithelegend

Riskymove wrote: »

but of course in the public sector a clerical officer gets extra for having a degree, right?.....right?:rolleyes:

No they don't they may get extra marks when going for the Interview for the position but they start on the bottom of the scale same as everyone else. In fact there haven't been many people with degrees come in to the Public / Civil Service over the last 5 years or so it got so bad for recruitment that they had to abolish the leaving cert requirment to get people in the door!

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

No, you still don't understand my point.

What is it?

K-9

mickeyk wrote: »

Take the example of a clerical worker after 6-8 years service would be on 30k +. Many clerical workers don't have qualifications as such and would probably be the equivelent of an office assistant in private sector. I don't know any office assistants in the private sector on 30k do you? Increments and so on drive the wages up over time. Take into account their better holidays, guaranteed jobs & pension and it's a huge benefit. None of these people are well off obviously but they're surely alot better off than their counterparts in the private sector. Maybe I'm wrong but thats my take on it.

Are they the equivalent though? I'm not sure myself.

An assistant may start on 22/23k and after 8 years I'd expect the wage to be 30k in normal circumstances. A 33% rise in wages over 8 years, based on experience and pay rises wouldn't be out of the way.

I do say normal circumstances because they are over!

Not sure if holidays are that much better and the pension depends. On 30k, you'd be entitled to 15k, not much if you are married. The state pension I think is higher.

dvpower

Liam79 wrote: »

To those people in the private sector who insist on the demonisation of public service workers, I would quote the great Roy Keane: Get Over It. If the public sector was the fantastic land of opportunity you say it is now, you could have joined at any point in your working past. But you made a choice to go the private route, as I did, and as did many of my colleagues who now so boldly lead the charge against the public service. Try as I might, I can't think of a single reason why public sector workers should be held responsible for that choice.

Liam79 wrote: »

To those people in the private sector who insist on the demonisation of public service workers, I would quote the great Roy Keane: Get Over It. If the public sector was the fantastic land of opportunity you say it is now, you could have joined at any point in your working past. But you made a choice to go the private route, as I did, and as did many of my colleagues who now so boldly lead the charge against the public service. Try as I might, I can't think of a single reason why public sector workers should be held responsible for that choice


well said old chap

???
Self praise is no praise.

The_Honeybadger

K-9 wrote: »

Are they the equivalent though? I'm not sure myself.

An assistant may start on 22/23k and after 8 years I'd expect the wage to be 30k in normal circumstances. A 33% rise in wages over 8 years, based on experience and pay rises wouldn't be out of the way.

I do say normal circumstances because they are over!

Not sure if holidays are that much better and the pension depends. On 30k, you'd be entitled to 15k, not much if you are married. The state pension I think is higher.

Normal circumstances are certainly over. I still doubt there are many office assistants earning 30k+ but we shall agree to disagree, perhaps they just don't stay 8 years. State pension is about 12k net so agreed there is no great benefit in the pension my mistake. Think they get 30 days hols in PS and can add to this with extra hrs through flexitime etc in some cases. Again I'm no expert but IMO the lower paid are better off in the PS overall.

rossithelegend

mickeyk wrote: »

Of course there are public servants with degrees and good qualifications, but I was referring specifically to clerical officers as an example, I doubt 3rd level degrees are the norm at that level, if they are then have these people no ambition? Cap on salary at CO level is 37k, again i reiterate my point that people doing similar work in the private sector would never reach that salary. I'm not a public service "basher" but thats simply the truth. The secretary in my company gets paid about 23k and has been there 4 years for example, how much better off would she be in the civil service.

A CO is a more Diverse role than a secretary but it would have similarities and plenty of people with degrees etc went into public service because it offered them flexibility and a lifestyle that they wanted. In the private sector you have the opportunity of being selected for promotion not something that heppens in the PS no matter how good you are. Also should there not be an element of peoples wages reflecting the experience as im sure you'll agree a CO with a number of years experience that knows the workings of their Dept and Organisation in a number of different areas deserves credit based on their experience?? Promotions in the Public service happen maybe every few years and the lower level grades are the toughest to move through due to competition being quite high i.e 500 applicants for 30 positions in some cases!

rossithelegend

K-9 wrote: »

Are they the equivalent though? I'm not sure myself.

An assistant may start on 22/23k and after 8 years I'd expect the wage to be 30k in normal circumstances. A 33% rise in wages over 8 years, based on experience and pay rises wouldn't be out of the way.

I do say normal circumstances because they are over!

Not sure if holidays are that much better and the pension depends. On 30k, you'd be entitled to 15k, not much if you are married. The state pension I think is higher.

Thats right you would be entitles to half your wage so if your on 30k you would get 15k a year the first 12 of that is your state pension so in fact you only get an additional 3 and hols are roughly the same between a sales role and a public service role both of which I've held!

Riskymove

mickeyk wrote: »

Normal circumstances are certainly over. I still doubt there are many office assistants earning 30k+ but we shall agree to disagree, perhaps they just don't stay 8 years. State pension is about 12k net so agreed there is no great benefit in the pension my mistake. Think they get 30 days hols in PS and can add to this with extra hrs through flexitime etc in some cases. Again I'm no expert but IMO the lower paid are better off in the PS overall.

I dont disagree with your general points but there are some more genralisations there

flexi-time is not available to all but to those who have it it means working up extra hours and taking a certain amount of time off...either way the person works the same time for the same pay....it is available in some private sector area too

I do not see the big problem people see with this sort of working


with regard to leave for a clerical officer its 20-22 days

The_Honeybadger

Riskymove wrote: »

I dont disagree with your general points but there are some more genralisations there

flexi-time is not available to all but to those who have it it means working up extra hours and taking a certain amount of time off...either way the person works the same time for the same pay....it is available in some private sector area too

I do not see the big problem people see with this sort of working


with regard to leave for a clerical officer its 20-22 days

I stand corrected on the leave I thought it was 30 days and I can actually avail of an informal type of flexitime myself in my work as we have busy and quiet periods and I think its a great system and never said I had a problem with it.

K-9

rossithelegend wrote: »

Thats right you would be entitles to half your wage so if your on 30k you would get 15k a year the first 12 of that is your state pension so in fact you only get an additional 3 and hols are roughly the same between a sales role and a public service role both of which I've held!

I think married couples get over €300 in the state pension, so really they could end up worse.

One thing I've learned from the Public Sector threads is that pensions are good if you are well paid, not great if lower paid.

siochan84

Liam79 wrote: »

Nobody argues that the upper echelons are over paid....thats well accepted and it annoys no one more than normal PS workers. The greivance most PS workers have is this idea that its gonne be a 7% across the boards cut....
7% off a Senior Engineer wont make much difference, 7% off a CO/LIbrary worker making 26k will cripple them

Thats the problem.
By all means go after the top blokes...but dont cripple families making less than 50k BETWEEN them or single income families making less than 30k

Absolutely. 100% in agreement with this post. I enjoyed reading Mr Doyle's article so thank you for posting it up. I was trying to put my point across as a public sector worker on a lower pay scale on the "Strikes a joke...." page, and it didn't go down well, not that I'm surprised. :rolleyes: Apparently the majority on that particular thread see it perfectly fair to cut a lower pay scale wage because we are ever so lucky to have jobs. They forget that a lot of people studied for 4 years in college for those particular positions. My job certainly wasn't handed out to me on a plate, I studied, worked and trained god damn hard for it.

The people posting on that thread are basically saying without actually saying it...... how dare you have a job that I never wanted in the 1st place but now that everything has gone bust your going to have pay for it whether you like or not. There are also a lot of people posting that are angry with the public sector for not wanting to make a contribution that apparently might save us all and that the government simply have no other choice but to go ahead with pay cuts. Others are saying that they have lost their jobs or know people that have lost jobs in the private sector.

I appreciate that. But I also know people that have lost jobs in the private sector. These particular people however are not all suggesting to me for one minute that somebody on the lower end of the pay scale takes a pay cut. They are open-minded individuals and actually thinking of the people, yes people that would be included in this proposed pay cut. I hate the way the private sector and public are tearing each other up about this because at the end of the day neither of the normal workers in each sector are to blame for this mess.

I also can't stand the media dissecting each public sector worker's pay salary and their so called numerous "benefits" like a pack of vultures. The media has made it pretty clear which so called "side" it's on with the exception of few open minded, intelligent journalists. So the people that are saying the whole demonisation of the public service workers isn't true must have been asleep for the past few months or avoided media coverage on the subject.

K-9

The size of the cut and who takes it are matters for the Unions and their members.

An across the board cut is unfair on lower paid workers. Their Net pay is affected disproportionately due to the tax system.

c montgomery

Liam79 wrote: »

Diarmuid Doyle - "The journey of the public service employee from unambitious, unimaginative workhorse to shopaholic destroyer of an entire economy has been a sight to behold"


As RTÉ viewers and readers of Irish newspapers will know by now, public sector workers are the most evil, self-centred, lazy, opportunistic, stupid, dishonest and vile group of individuals Ireland has ever known. Their thievery knows no bounds and goes back generations. DNA tests on a nurse from Enfield recently discovered she is a direct descendant of a family of cruel kitten killers from the 1890s. Investigations into the background of a teacher in Kilkenny revealed that wealthy ancestors on his mother's side used to stand outside the homes of starving people during the famine, munching potato salad sandwiches and feeding the leftovers to the local bird population. What else would he do with that kind of history but look for a job in the public service?


But of all the insults perpetrated by public sector workers over the years, perhaps the worst was their mass Christmas shopping outing to Newry last Tuesday. Luckily, the media was around to uncover the crime. The day of action, RTÉ confidently reported at lunchtime on Tuesday, had led to an influx of public sector workers who had abandoned their picket lines in search of cheap whiskey (they didn't quite put it like that, but it was clear what they were getting at). It was an arresting image, no doubt, and one backed up by no evidence whatsoever. I tuned into the Six-One News later in the day to see if they were able to put any more meat on their story. Sadly, they were not, although that didn't stop them pushing an angle that was too attractive to abandon.


Three witnesses to the madness were interviewed. An Englishman who didn't work in the public sector thought the busier-than-usual shopping day might have had something to do with the work stoppage, although he didn't seem sure. A shopper from Dublin who didn't work in the public sector thought a fellow over there might be in the public sector, although there was no interview with the fellow over there to confirm that suspicion. An elderly woman who didn't work in the public sector was sure she was surrounded by public sector workers, their horns and pointy tails having completely given the game away.


RTÉ at least acknowledged that many of the people who arrived in Newry on Tuesday might have been the parents of children who had the day off (which, of course, was always the most likely explanation for the long queue of southern-registered cars meandering towards the town). Nevertheless the impression created, and amplified in the following day's newspapers, was that thousands of strikers had used their day off – taken ostensibly on a point of principle – as an excuse to boost the economy of a foreign nation. The unstated analysis: what would you expect from the people who ruined the country?


The journey of the public service employee from unambitious, unimaginative workhorse to shopaholic destroyer of an entire economy has been a sight to behold. During the boom years, nobody worth their salt would be caught dead working in the public service. Our thrusting, creative, adaptable workforce demanded the freedom and excitement offered by the private sector to express themselves (whatever that means), win attention, secure promotion and earn lots of money. By contrast, the public sector was looked on as a kind of fusty fallback position for Denis and Denise Dullknickers, where they could toil away unrecognised by anybody. Judged by the rules and morality of the Celtic Badger, these people were unambitious, and therefore slightly weird, losers.


Now that the boom is over – wrecked mainly, let us not forget, by the private sector – the public service has been reimagined as the modern equivalent of Nero's Rome. Denis and Denise have been tried and found guilty of excesses likely to lead to a visit by the International Monetary Fund. A country's future depends on them being chastised for reckless behaviour they were never aware of.


To those people in the private sector who insist on the demonisation of public service workers, I would quote the great Roy Keane: Get Over It. If the public sector was the fantastic land of opportunity you say it is now, you could have joined at any point in your working past. But you made a choice to go the private route, as I did, and as did many of my colleagues who now so boldly lead the charge against the public service. Try as I might, I can't think of a single reason why public sector workers should be held responsible for that choice.

F-in Idiot!

I wanted to work in a vibrant creative and energetic environment and as a result i am in the private sector. All of the top people in my class went on to work in the private for the same reasons. IT WAS NOT BECAUSE OF THE PAY as my equivalet in the public sector earns more.

seclachi

c montgomery wrote: »

F-in Idiot!

I wanted to work in a vibrant creative and energetic environment and as a result i am in the private sector. All of the top people in my class went on to work in the private for the same reasons. IT WAS NOT BECAUSE OF THE PAY as my equivalet in the public sector earns more.

The daily influx of generalizations on this forum makes it a real pain to read, people just want the easy to digest truth, such as the greedy private sector causing it, or everybody in the public sector has a full pensionable job earning 60k min.