Have the Public Servants won the dispute?

lmimmfn

Bruce2008 wrote: »

I'm sure this is part of the agreement...anyway it is not necessarily true about maintaining the same production in private sector... phyically and mechanically impossible in alot of cases..



How is the taxation different???? and ehh not all on large salaries and huge pensions!!! Dont paint them all with the same brush or they'll paint you with the same brush used on bank managers, lawyers, solicitors etc... with all their wages and benefits!!!

PS dont contribute to the tax take that the government use to pay the PS, private sector do. Any tax on the PS is just a wage decrease.

So, public sector wont take a cut even though theyre way too expensive so we in the private sector have to contribute instead, nice.

This painting with the same brush nonsense is getting a bit much, there are only a handful of bankers/directors that get those insane bonuses, its the same for the developers. Not only that, its a free market, capitalism, if you dont want that then vote for a commie government. The PS is not a capitalist workforce and therefore should never ever recieve the same terms in terms of salary( job for life and all that crap ).

kippy

lmimmfn wrote: »

PS dont contribute to the tax take that the government use to pay the PS, private sector do. Any tax on the PS is just a wage decrease.

So, public sector wont take a cut even though theyre way too expensive so we in the private sector have to contribute instead, nice.

This painting with the same brush nonsense is getting a bit much, there are only a handful of bankers/directors that get those insane bonuses, its the same for the developers. Not only that, its a free market, capitalism, if you dont want that then vote for a commie government. The PS is not a capitalist workforce and therefore should never ever recieve the same terms in terms of salary( job for life and all that crap ).

Commies, capitalists, I am grossly confused.

Flex

lmimmfn wrote: »

PS dont contribute to the tax take that the government use to pay the PS, private sector do. Any tax on the PS is just a wage decrease.

So, public sector wont take a cut even though theyre way too expensive so we in the private sector have to contribute instead, nice.

No, but you see theres brilliant logic behind that attitude;

1) When the public sector get a pay increase they dont turn around to the government throwing a hissy fit and saying "NO NO NO! This is national money we're dealing with here, therefore its only fair that instead of giving just us a pay increase, you should lower everyones taxes. That way the whole country gets to share in this national money."

but...

2) When the public sector get a pay decrease they turn around to the government throwing a hissy fit and saying "NO NO NO! This is national money we're dealing with here, therefore its only fair that instead of giving just us a pay decrease, you should increase everyones taxes. That way the whole country gets to share in this national money."

Totally flawless

Rookster

Ireland has been unfortunate in that it has been run by corrupt, incompetent and weak leaders over the decades. The PS have to get real. Instead of getting paid 25% more than the private sector they should be getting at least 25% less than the private sector as they have guaranteed jobs and pensions. This way you might end up with people who were public spirited rather than that greedy rabble we saw marching last week.

bbam

lmimmfn wrote: »

PS dont contribute to the tax take that the government use to pay the PS, private sector do. Any tax on the PS is just a wage decrease.

I think that's not true or fair... PS pay their taxes, income levi etc

bbam

Rookster wrote: »

Ireland has been unfortunate in that it has been run by corrupt, incompetent and weak leaders over the decades. The PS have to get real. Instead of getting paid 25% more than the private sector they should be getting at least 25% less than the private sector as they have guaranteed jobs and pensions. This way you might end up with people who were public spirited rather than that greedy rabble we saw marching last week.

We can't just pick random numbers...
There is a system for ensuring public and private sector wages are comparable and it was agreed by unions and government.. Its called Benchmarking, I don't remember it being advertised as a one way system.. It should be rolled out again to level the playing field.

Kensington

bbam wrote: »

I think that's not true or fair... PS pay their taxes, income levi etc

It is true. Trace back where the PS wages from.

Public servant pays tax.
That tax is a proportion from their wage.
Their wage comes from the exchequer.
Where is the exchequer funded from? Tax.

Now if public sector taxes are taken from a wage that originates from the exchequer to begin with, it simply isn't possible for your tax to fund it. Your taxes are basically like a partial refund of the money you would have been otherwise paid.

So then where can the funding ultimately come from? Private sector tax.

Private sector employee pays tax (just like the public servant).
That tax is a proportion from their wage (just like the public servant).
Their wage comes from a employer, completely external to the exchequer.
Their employer gets the wage from company turnover, again, completely external to the exchequer.
Furthermore, the company's profit each year is subsequently taxed (Corporation tax @ 12.5%) which feeds directly into the exchequer.
Everything the company sells is taxed (VAT @ 21.5%) which feeds directly into the exchequer.

waffleman

not sure if this has been posted yet:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/text/ireland/eymhgbidkfcw/

"We will not be going the route of (unpaid leave) right now to realise money. If it realises money in the future, fine, but not right now."

sounds like the unpaid leave deal has been "parked" and all savings required will come from wage cuts - took them long enough to figure it out!!

bbam

Kensington wrote: »

It is true. Trace back where the PS wages from.

Public servant pays tax.
That tax is a proportion from their wage.
Their wage comes from the exchequer.
Where is the exchequer funded from? Tax.

Now if public sector taxes are taken from a wage that originates from the exchequer to begin with, it simply isn't possible for your tax to fund it. Your taxes are basically like a partial refund of the money you would have been otherwise paid.
.

Would you feel better if the ful ammount was taken from the exchequer, distributed to the four corners of the PS and then returned in seperate payments for the relavent departments...

Then you'd be on moaning about rediculous red tape that is waisting exchequer funds to administer..

Tax is deducted from their payslip same as private sector payslips.

To say they don't pay tax or contribute to the exchequer demeans you're argument as it shows a lack of understanding of how things work.

Are you suggesting they don't pay VAT on the goods and services they purchsae ?? That also contributes to the excheuqer...

irish_bob

bbam wrote: »

We can't just pick random numbers...
There is a system for ensuring public and private sector wages are comparable and it was agreed by unions and government.. Its called Benchmarking, I don't remember it being advertised as a one way system.. It should be rolled out again to level the playing field.

this presumes the system used was fair and balanced , the unions are hardly neutral observers and the goverment under bertie was the gift that kept on giving when it came to union negotiations

Kensington

bbam wrote: »

Would you feel better if the ful ammount was taken from the exchequer, distributed to the four corners of the PS and then returned in seperate payments for the relavent departments...

Then you'd be on moaning about rediculous red tape that is waisting exchequer funds to administer..

I'm sorry, what are you on about.

bbam wrote: »

Tax is deducted from their payslip same as private sector payslips.

Correct. I didn't dispute that?

bbam wrote: »

To say they don't pay tax or contribute to the exchequer demeans you're argument as it shows a lack of understanding of how things work.

Are you suggesting they don't pay VAT on the goods and services they purvhsae ?? That also contributes to the excheuqer...

I didn't say they don't pay tax? Yes, they pay VAT and duty. But PRSI, PAYE, Pension Levy and Income Levy deductions do not directly contribute anything to the exchequer.

CityCentreMan

The original question in this thread is whether or not the PS have won the dispute. In my view they havent.

With 85% voting against (the 12 days for Christmas proposal ) on yesterdays poll of 11,000 respondents to the text poll on the joe duffy show it is clear that the overwhelming majority in this country are firmly against bowing down again to the PS Unions.

On this occasion our spineless politicians are going to do the right thing for a change - not because its the right thing to do but because they are afraid to do otherwise.

The ordinary people of this country are starting to fight back and I think that its wonderful!

I believe that this will be the first victory of the silent majority for a long time!

Cuchulain

CityCentreMan wrote: »

The original question in this thread is whether or not the PS have won the dispute. In my view they havent.

With 85% voting against (the 12 days for Christmas proposal ) on yesterdays poll of 11,000 respondents to the text poll on the joe duffy show it is clear that the overwhelming majority in this country are firmly against bowing down again to the PS Unions.

On this occasion our spineless politicians are going to do the right thing for a change - not because its the right thing to do but because they are afraid to do otherwise.

The ordinary people of this country are starting to fight back and I think that its wonderful!

I believe that this will be the first victory of the silent majority for a long time!

Oh my dear god. The "ordinary people of this country"? Public servants are also the ordinary people of this country too.

destroyer

Cuchulain wrote: »

Oh my dear god. The "ordinary people of this country"? Public servants are also the ordinary people of this country too.

Yes, but their union leaders aren,t.

rkeane

I think our dear Taoiseach was on the verge of allowing the unions another victory, that was until he heard the reaction of his backbenchers....and most importantly the voting public. He knows that the next election is non-winnable, but he doesn't want to put the final nail into FF's future.

People facing cuts in their Disability payments, Carer's and OAP'S will not allow the government to cave in on this very important issue.

ardmacha

Well on Joe Duffy today people were saying that Bertie should not be allowed gallivant around in a State Merc publicising his book. I'd say you'd get 90% against that, do you suppose that Cowan and co will be paying equal attention to this issue?

To The North

destroyer wrote: »

Yes, but their union leaders aren,t.

yes but the union leaders are only the representatives of the ordinary people of this country, don't wish ill will on the whole of the public sector just because you dislike the union leaders.

rkeane

ardmacha wrote: »

Well on Joe Duffy today people were saying that Bertie should not be allowed gallivant around in a State Merc publicising his book. I'd say you'd get 90% against that, do you suppose that Cowan and co will be paying equal attention to this issue?

Listen, we need 1.3 billion out of the PS Pay Bill...this has to be achieved. The vast majority of the electorate will not accept another climb down to the unions. It's time to cut public sector pay! I,m sorry but this idea of day's off is a joke.

CityCentreMan

Yes, the PS are ordinary people, but thru the excessive power exercised by their unions acting collectively, they have negotiated themselves into an unfair position with wages, pensions, working conditions etc which are better than the rest of society.

With spineless politicians afraid to stand up to the unions, the level of unfairness has got steadily worse and normal ordinary people who either depend on the services provided of the PS or thru excessive taxes, pay for them have got more and more disenchanted.

The unions have got used to the politicians continually backing down and they cant be blamed for their excellent representation of their members.

However, neither can they expect to be able to continue to fool all of the people all of the time. At long last the anger that has been silently felt by most people is now coming out, and coming out loudly.

The tide is turning and the our politicians are beginning to realise that the rest of society will no longer accept the bullying practices of the unions. We want them to stand up to the unions and we are prepared to accept the consequences.

The worm has turned....power to the people!!!

Cuchulain

destroyer wrote: »

Yes, but their union leaders aren,t.

He was referring the the public sector employees not the union leaders. I read some of these forums to make me feel better. The tripe written about the public sector is pure comedy. Generally they fall into these groups

1)People who have no idea what they are talking about
2)People who have been let off and want somebody to blame
3)People who wouldnt take public sector jobs when they were available because the pay was too low
4)People who feel sorry for themselves because they cant live the high life they had in the recession.

Get on with your lives and stop worrying about other people. Get yourself some education, both formal and informal. Dont all be such a big bunch of moaners.

ardmacha

Get yourself some education, both formal and informal. Dont all be such a big bunch of moaners.

Preferably a private education, all the better not to have to deal with those public sector wasters.

Pharaoh1

Agree with citycentreman - more of the public are beginning to wake up.

Personally I'll be happy when the following happen

1. The ESRI (or preferably some independent international body) issue a report saying that pay in private and public sectors are broadly in line. I accept that this is not an exact science

2. We have an end to the effective apartheid in the pension system in the country. Could you imagine the reaction if McCreevy had decreed that say only non govt employees could have accessed the SSIA scheme? Is confining the Superannuation/PS levy system to those on the state payroll that much different. To be fair I have heard David Begg mention the notion of a universal scheme but not lately.

3. We arrive at a situation where those employed by the govt who don't perform can be dismissed/let go. The unions keep telling us this does happen but what I hear from friends/relatives in the PS is that in most cases if someone is taken on who proves hopeless at the job (and there will always be a percentage - ask any HR person) is simply kept on and someone else is employed.

Won't be holding my breath though.

Cuchulain

ardmacha wrote: »

Preferably a private education, all the better not to have to deal with those public sector wasters.

I was really talking about third level education but each to their own I guess :rolleyes:

kippy

People have to realise that unions are made up of ordinary people, they are not some faceless entity.
Union members over the past ten years have voted for every part of benchmarking that came their way, doing absolutely nothing wrong in the process. I'd like to see any member of society turn down a pay deal that was offered to them.

The Union leaders however, who are well paid by their members to look out for them have failed their members and the country. They took the short term money for their members. As have the politicians who negotiated all these pay rises and increases in numbers over the past few years. No one stepped back and looked at the medium long term good for the country.

As I said countless times pay cuts are on the cards and possibly a bigger input into pensions, but lets be real here, its very hard to give up any level of pay or conditions for anyone and if people had the chance in the private sector to strike and use every means necessary to keep their pay and conditions they would, even if it is a futile effort.
Who knows some of this striking may bring down the very government that helped get us into this mess.

ardmacha

I,m sorry but this idea of day's off is a joke.

If there are people in the public sector who aren't busy, and the likes of the HSE administration seems to have such people, then these should be put on a 4 day week with appropriate renumeration reduction.

If there are people receiving ridiculous bonus payments, then these should be removed.

When this has been done, look at the sums, half of the required savings will have been achieved, so a smaller cut for everyone who is busy and who doesn't receive extra payments will do the trick.

irish_bob

Cuchulain wrote: »

Oh my dear god. The "ordinary people of this country"? Public servants are also the ordinary people of this country too.

thier insistance on being shielded from the rescession and having thier boom time wages maintained , suggests otherwise

Bruce2008

irish_bob wrote: »

thier insistance on being shielded from the rescession and having thier boom time wages maintained , suggests otherwise

This is a perfect example of the SH*TE that is being posted here...
Boom time wages my arse.. you'd swear all of them were earning 100,000euro a year!!!

RIGHT...LETS START THE BALL ROLLING!!!

Who do you personally know that works in the public service and what is their wage???... not someone who a friend of yours knows... who do YOU know???

Can you name them (not actual name) and shame them?

Bruce2008

Cuchulain wrote: »

He was referring the the public sector employees not the union leaders. I read some of these forums to make me feel better. The tripe written about the public sector is pure comedy. Generally they fall into these groups

1)People who have no idea what they are talking about
2)People who have been let off and want somebody to blame
3)People who wouldnt take public sector jobs when they were available because the pay was too low
4)People who feel sorry for themselves because they cant live the high life they had in the recession.

Get on with your lives and stop worrying about other people. Get yourself some education, both formal and informal. Dont all be such a big bunch of moaners.

Well done Cuchulain...

I totally agree with you on the 4 points...

Not to gone on the ould 'get yourself an education'... I'm sure there are plenty of educated people who fall into the 4 catagories above...

Apart from that little point... you have said it as it is...

To quote someone I would not normally quote (Liam Doran)

''people should back off and shut up and stopped throwing stones at a talks process they knew very little about"

Bruce2008

rkeane wrote: »

I,m sorry but this idea of day's off is a joke.

Its called short time/reduced working hours... not days off... which imply an extra PAID holiday...

By the way... just incase you are not aware of it... alot of places of employment are already on short time/reduced working hours... all part of their way of reducing wage bills!!! Is this also a joke???

How does the public sectors proposed short time/reduced hours differ from the norm???

Bruce2008

lmimmfn wrote: »

PS dont contribute to the tax take that the government use to pay the PS, private sector do.

Did you ever hear such sh*te... So where does all their tax go.... to the man in the moon... sorry to burst you balloon but tax go to the tax man....

lmimmfn wrote: »

This painting with the same brush nonsense is getting a bit much, there are only a handful of bankers/directors that get those insane bonuses, its the same for the developers. Not only that, its a free market, capitalism, if you dont want that then vote for a commie government. The PS is not a capitalist workforce and therefore should never ever recieve the same terms in terms of salary( job for life and all that crap ).

I repeat...

Did you ever hear such sh*te...

I'm sorry lmimmfn but what are you on about.... or maybe what are you on???