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Have the Public Servants won the dispute?
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As a mortgage broker, even in the best times & as easy as it was to get a mortgage, you would not of gotten a mortgage that costs you €1000 per month on a net salary of €370 x 4 . .
Im sorry but your figures simply do not add up. That of course assumes that you speak as a single applicant or took out a mortgage with a partner/parent .
And paycuts have brought your salary down by 19% ?
Then you mentioned your salary going from €300 down to €250 ? Thats a 17% paycut . .
So you are saying you will be taking a 29% paycut ? ?
Overall, your maths SOUNDS like its simply madeup as it doesnt make any sense . . . I will stand corrected , if you can explain exactly how your dramatically high paycut was not reported anywhere, and if you can elaborate on the mortgage you got . .
I was talking about pay into pay hand. What I come out with is €301 p/w. What it was previously as far as I recall was €370. I should have added that I took out one of these "cycle to work" scheme bikes and that costs me €6.50 p/w from what I end up with.
What do you want to know about the mortgage? I got a loan from my folks that I was able to put towards it. I have to pay it back at some stage, but there is no rush in that.
And when I said €300 to €250, that's me guessing what I will lose when the budget comes in. It could be more, it could be less, it's a guess.
I was specifically talking about what I get into my hand. And when I originally got the mortgage, I was able to do overtime and that was factored in by the mortgage broker. I don't get any overtime now, because there isn't anyway.0 -
celticbhoy27 wrote: »
guards have always gotten special treatment when it comes to the retail sector or any other , when they go to buy a car , they can expect a discount the rest of us could only dream of , i have an aunt who is married to a guards , an inspector , sound man and the kind of guy who was born to be a policeman , he recently built on an extension to his house , he is extremley good with his hands hand done everything himself , his costs were significantly reduced by the fact that the local hire centre owner didnt charge him for a cement mixer , a con saw or a power float , being a guard provides you with many perks , official and UNOFFICIAL
I'm only going by what my brother says, and he does not get any discounts of any kind as a result of his occupation. Discounts for buying cars? I've never heard of such a thing. Ridiculous.0 -
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Name Changed wrote: »I was talking about pay into pay hand. What I come out with is €301 p/w. What it was previously as far as I recall was €370. I should have added that I took out one of these "cycle to work" scheme bikes and that costs me €6.50 p/w from what I end up with.
What do you want to know about the mortgage? I got a loan from my folks that I was able to put towards it. I have to pay it back at some stage, but there is no rush in that.
And when I said €300 to €250, that's me guessing what I will lose when the budget comes in. It could be more, it could be less, it's a guess.
I was specifically talking about what I get into my hand. And when I originally got the mortgage, I was able to do overtime and that was factored in by the mortgage broker. I don't get any overtime now, because there isn't anyway.
Im not calling you a liar, I am simply saying I just believe your figures appear to be missing something . .
Take an example of somebody on €30,000 per annum. Their monthly takehome is roughly €2077 net . . Thats €479 per week .. .
Lets be generous and say that a single income person is somehow given 8 x Salary from a mortgage lender, that would be a mortgage of roughly 240k (lets assume 100% mortgage). Over 35years, on an interest rate of 4% (should be less, but again being conservative ), that would cost €1060 per month. That doesnt even factor in Mortgage interest relief . .
Now, you have said at your peak salary (with unguaranteed overtime) you were on nearly 25% less then the person in my example, yet you say that your mortgage is costing you €1000 per month in a time when interest rates are at an all time high ? ?
By the way . . I feel sorry for anybody struggling to keep up the repayments of their mortgage and struggling to make ends meat . .0 -
What a crock . . You dont get any sympathy because you ignore the most basic questions as to why you are "feeling the pain" anymore then the average joe in any job . . And its this attitude that "we dont get sympathy" and "we have already taken pain" that gets up most private sector employees wick more then anything. Its as if the rest of us are laughing and living it up at the expense of the public service. Your ill educated, ill informed opinions simply mirror that or a militant union that PUBLICALLY doesn awknowledge the fact that the WHOLE COUNTRY is feeling the pain . . Privately they know damn well that they are out of order, but are just trying to justify their existance . .
And when you post figures without qualifying or explaining how they worked them out (without qualifying their post), then you cant expect people to just accept what you say as the truth . . Yeh, I work in the financial services industry and get mortgages for people, but what do I know . . .
At the end of the day, from what I have read from you in particular (not every public servant is this way), you are come across as deluded and self centred and don't want to hear anybody elses view if it in anyway takes away from your own self serving arguement on public service paycuts. All you are looking for is pity and people to agree with your own one sided view of things . . .
Im not going to go into it in detail as in one post, you refused to answer half my questions because they highlighted the hypocracy and downright ignorance of certain stances taken that the public service wants "shared pain". . All I say to anybody reading this is simply look up some of your replies in the last day or so to see how "balanced" your views are . .
Drumpot did you not imply that that guy was a liar. I think you did, i don't give a rats behind if i get no sympathy, i'm not after any. I'm just pointing out that this guy got anything but sympathy for telling his situation... called a liar by you for his troubles.0 -
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And when you post figures without qualifying or explaining how they worked them out (without qualifying their post), then you cant expect people to just accept what you say as the truth
What figures are you refering to. The 150K, you read my point wrong and asked me a question based on your incorrect reading of my point.All you are looking for is pity and people to agree with your own one sided view of things ..
I've never been looking for sympathy only fairness.All you are looking for is pity and people to agree with your own one sided view of things ..
In terms of onesided arguments, just take a look through some of the threads over the last few months its overwhelmingly onesided against the PS.0 -
... In terms of onesided arguments, just take a look through some of the threads over the last few months its overwhelmingly onesided against the PS.
There are a handful of very energetic posters who seem to me to be generally anti-PS; many of them dispense with any need for fairness in argument. There is a larger number of usually less energetic posters who seem to believe that the PS payroll should be reduced, but who are not otherwise particularly anti-PS; sometimes they get things wrong, but it is possible to discuss their errors with them in a reasonable way (I'm not saying that everything they say is wrong).
On the other hand, a number of those who purport to defend the PS have made some preposterous arguments. Frequently they ignore or deny things that should, by any reasonable standard, be accepted as fact. Some of the pro-PS posts are provocative.
[I write as someone who spent most of his career in the PS, and now has a PS pension.]0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »There are a handful of very energetic posters who seem to me to be generally anti-PS; many of them dispense with any need for fairness in argument. There is a larger number of usually less energetic posters who seem to believe that the PS payroll should be reduced, but who are not otherwise particularly anti-PS; sometimes they get things wrong, but it is possible to discuss their errors with them in a reasonable way (I'm not saying that everything they say is wrong).
On the other hand, a number of those who purport to defend the PS have made some preposterous arguments. Frequently they ignore or deny things that should, by any reasonable standard, be accepted as fact. Some of the pro-PS posts are provocative.
[I write as someone who spent most of his career in the PS, and now has a PS pension.]
P. Breathnach, you are correct in that breakdown.
I will add though that any PS poster who makes anything resembling a preposterous argument in favour of PS will be pulled up on it very very quickly, it is not always the case on the other side of the fence.0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »There are a handful of very energetic posters who seem to me to be generally anti-PS; many of them dispense with any need for fairness in argument. There is a larger number of usually less energetic posters who seem to believe that the PS payroll should be reduced, but who are not otherwise particularly anti-PS; sometimes they get things wrong, but it is possible to discuss their errors with them in a reasonable way (I'm not saying that everything they say is wrong).
On the other hand, a number of those who purport to defend the PS have made some preposterous arguments. Frequently they ignore or deny things that should, by any reasonable standard, be accepted as fact. Some of the pro-PS posts are provocative.
[I write as someone who spent most of his career in the PS, and now has a PS pension.]
Thats pretty much how it is alright. The amount of old yarn spinned about public sector workers is pretty crazy.
Of all the things that get my goat though are pro public sector posts that pretty much ignore the whole situation , its such a contrast to so many people I have spoken to in the last year, some have taken paycuts and are working in tough conditions, but are still happy simply because they have a job, not to mention all the building workers I have met who have lost there jobs and are in a dire situation now.
Would I want my pay cut if I was in the public sector ? No way, but I would expect it in the current condition.0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »There are a handful of very energetic posters who seem to me to be generally anti-PS; many of them dispense with any need for fairness in argument. There is a larger number of usually less energetic posters who seem to believe that the PS payroll should be reduced, but who are not otherwise particularly anti-PS; sometimes they get things wrong, but it is possible to discuss their errors with them in a reasonable way (I'm not saying that everything they say is wrong).
On the other hand, a number of those who purport to defend the PS have made some preposterous arguments. Frequently they ignore or deny things that should, by any reasonable standard, be accepted as fact. Some of the pro-PS posts are provocative.
[I write as someone who spent most of his career in the PS, and now has a PS pension.]
So basically you think that the more animated and convincing the poster, the more the need to dispense with the notion of fairness. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Nobody here is "anti-PS" as you put it. People rightly have a lot to say about a massive imbalance that now exists in relation to workers rights in this state. People in the public sector will not cooperate with reforms and improvements unless they are paid for it, this is UNFAIR on taxpayers. If you want to talk about fairness, we'll talk about fairness and in that context, what have you got to say about the fact that you got and still get automatic pay increments every year??? I've a friend who works for Dell and got a promotion well over a year ago from a technician position to an engineer position. He is still waiting for the pay increase for the promoton because he has to prove himself in the job and then wait for his review to come around again before he gets a pay increase. The pay increment that you get automatically, he has to fight for it and make a case for it, what's fair about that???
He has to do two performance reviews a year and everything he does is taken into account, everything including sick leave and his actual ability to do his job, he has to get peer feedback as part of his review, whereas you probably didn't have a single real performance review (one that determines your pay increase), in your entire career, what's fair about that???0 -
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Name Changed wrote: »I wasn't been paid just 300 quid at the time. Cuts have brought me down from about 370. It was too easy to get a mortgage, I agree. I shouldn't have got one. But when I got the mortgage originally, I never thought for one second that I was going to be hit with a big pay cut, as I have been with the cut itself and the levy. And then there is another one to come. I got the mortgage based on the premise that I would be earning a certain amount, although small enough, but enough to live on. I never thought for a second that my pay would be reduced.
You should never have been given a mortgage of that magnitude with that little take home, even when you were on 370. What was your gross and what are you taking off it to get at your take home amount? I have a great deal of sympathy for anyone trying to pay off 1K a month on a weekly income of 300 odd but really banks weren't giving out mortgages of that size to people earning that little even during the worst of the boom!0 -
P. Breathnach, you are correct in that breakdown.
I will add though that any PS poster who makes anything resembling a preposterous argument in favour of PS will be pulled up on it very very quickly, it is not always the case on the other side of the fence.
OK . . .
Here you go . . I will keep this simple . .
I will answer the reasons why I believe you (and others in the public service) dont get the sympathy or understanding they feel that their feelings deserve . . Then you can post a reply to my questions (and comment on my answer if you like). .
1. Is it public service bashing if I disagree with the reasons that you are making and reply to them with Private sector alternatives or rebutes ?
My Answer: This is the way people like yourself are coming across. I dont agree with most of what you say because I believe you sidestep the main issues and make it out that anybody disagreeing with you is automatically attacking the public service.
2. Do you feel that the public service is being unfairly targeted ? If yes, do you feel that the private sector has gotten off lightly . .
My Answer: I feel we are ALL feeling the pain and most of us do not have a choice but to get our heads down and work hard for less. I dont believe a 12.5 % paycut is "being targeted" as if you are being individually singled out, as child benefit and social welfare is also being cut. Thats not even mentioning the pain people in the private sector have already had to adapt to.
3. Why did you mention private sector employees on 150K ?
My Answer: This suggests you feel that you think they represent a majority of people in the private sector and will only make you look bitter and somebody who sidesteps the real issues with union like stats . .
4. Do you think that the issue of Job Security and guaranteed pensions are unfair points to bring up when discussing cuts in public spending ?
My Answer: I simply believe that when you take something for granted, you dont value it unless it is taken away. I believe that this in particular has been one of the biggest topics that unions have conveniently sidestepped. They wont actually debate this topic and its ONLY because it doesnt further their points of view . .
5. What do you think is "fair" about a recession ?
My Answer: I believe we are all getting hammered, left right and centre . I also believe that the public service are the only section of society that are having their voices heard in anyway and as such many of them feel that what they are hearing from their representatives are a fair reflection of society.
6. There are over 450,000 people unemployed. There are many more hundreds of thousand worried about their job, have lost half the value of their pension, are on shorttime or whom have taken a paycut . Why do you feel they generally dont support the claims from the unions that make it out like public servants have taken enough pain ?
My Answer: You said yourself that you didnt want to discuss this kind of reality . . It only serves more to make you appear to be self interested, ignorant and deluded .
Whether you started out trying to be reasonable in these forums, the posts I have seen from you all appear to be Public Service Union orientated reasoning and points. . Some of your comments (and some of your avoiding of specific fair points) have made you come across as basically somebody who is only prepared to reason with people who agree with their view.
I agree that we need to protect those on lower incomes, not just in the public service, but in all jobs . . . But you have to understand that the economics behind juggling public finances is not as simple as you make out (like your 1.3 billion statement). You also have to understand that people on the higher tax band in salaries over 100k, may pay over 56% tax rate in some cases (I will stand corrected on that). We need and want foreign and national investment and entrepeneurs in this country. . If we keep taxing the higher earners, the incentive to setup industry and invest in Ireland is reduced. Its simply a harsh reality of an open international market.
I personally empathise with ANYBODY struggling to meet their bills and anybody that's worried about their financial future. However, I don't believe we have the luxury of providing and looking after the personal needs of certain sections of society . . This is being clearly highlighted by the fact that Social Welfare and Child Benefits are being cut, surely you must see that even the most vulnerable in society are feeling the pain.
This should hopefully clarify to some people who feel the public service has been taking a bashing. It may not necessarily be that people don't agree with bits of your arguments, its that you come across like a vested interest group that has only time for itself and wont even awknowledge the harsh reality that a MAJORITY of the people in the country are facing.0 -
OK . . .
Here you go . . I will keep this simple . .
I will answer the reasons why I believe you (and others in the public service) dont get the sympathy or understanding they feel that their feelings deserve . . Then you can post a reply to my questions (and comment on my answer if you like). .
1. Is it public service bashing if I disagree with the reasons that you are making and reply to them with Private sector alternatives or rebutes ?
My Answer: This is the way people like yourself are coming across. I dont agree with most of what you say because I believe you sidestep the main issues and make it out that anybody disagreeing with you is automatically attacking the public service.
2. Do you feel that the public service is being unfairly targeted ? If yes, do you feel that the private sector has gotten off lightly . .
My Answer: I feel we are ALL feeling the pain and most of us do not have a choice but to get our heads down and work hard for less. I dont believe a 12.5 % paycut is "being targeted" as if you are being individually singled out, as child benefit and social welfare is also being cut. Thats not even mentioning the pain people in the private sector have already had to adapt to.
3. Why did you mention private sector employees on 150K ?
My Answer: This suggests you feel that you think they represent a majority of people in the private sector and will only make you look bitter and somebody who sidesteps the real issues with union like stats . .
4. Do you think that the issue of Job Security and guaranteed pensions are unfair points to bring up when discussing cuts in public spending ?
My Answer: I simply believe that when you take something for granted, you dont value it unless it is taken away. I believe that this in particular has been one of the biggest topics that unions have conveniently sidestepped. They wont actually debate this topic and its ONLY because it doesnt further their points of view . .
5. What do you think is "fair" about a recession ?
My Answer: I believe we are all getting hammered, left right and centre . I also believe that the public service are the only section of society that are having their voices heard in anyway and as such many of them feel that what they are hearing from their representatives are a fair reflection of society.
6. There are over 450,000 people unemployed. There are many more hundreds of thousand worried about their job, have lost half the value of their pension, are on shorttime or whom have taken a paycut . Why do you feel they generally dont support the claims from the unions that make it out like public servants have taken enough pain ?
My Answer: You said yourself that you didnt want to discuss this kind of reality . . It only serves more to make you appear to be self interested, ignorant and deluded .
Whether you started out trying to be reasonable in these forums, the posts I have seen from you all appear to be Public Service Union orientated reasoning and points. . Some of your comments (and some of your avoiding of specific fair points) have made you come across as basically somebody who is only prepared to reason with people who agree with their view.
I agree that we need to protect those on lower incomes, not just in the public service, but in all jobs . . . But you have to understand that the economics behind juggling public finances is not as simple as you make out (like your 1.3 billion statement). You also have to understand that people on the higher tax band in salaries over 100k, may pay over 56% tax rate in some cases (I will stand corrected on that). We need and want foreign and national investment and entrepeneurs in this country. . If we keep taxing the higher earners, the incentive to setup industry and invest in Ireland is reduced. Its simply a harsh reality of an open international market.
I personally empathise with ANYBODY struggling to meet their bills and anybody that's worried about their financial future. However, I don't believe we have the luxury of providing and looking after the personal needs of certain sections of society . . This is being clearly highlighted by the fact that Social Welfare and Child Benefits are being cut, surely you must see that even the most vulnerable in society are feeling the pain.
This should hopefully clarify to some people who feel the public service has been taking a bashing. It may not necessarily be that people don't agree with bits of your arguments, its that you come across like a vested interest group that has only time for itself and wont even awknowledge the harsh reality that a MAJORITY of the people in the country are facing.
1. I couldn't really accuse you of PS bashing overall because I'm not overly familiar with your posts.
2. I feel that we in the PS are being lumped together as one when we are clearly not. There are many different jobs and massively different salary scales just like the private sector.
I certainly do not think that sections of the private sector have got of lightly but as with the public servor they are not one group. Some have suffered greatly and some have not - some are even getting payrises.
3. Because I believe at this level of pay there should be a 3rd rate of tax for both private and public sector earners.
4. I believe that at the higher pay grades in the PS pensions are very generous but not at my level.
On the subject of job security I think the PS would be a better place to work if under performers could be let go. But i don't think it should be used as a reason to cut pay.
5. Very little is fair about a ressession but i would expect a government to act in as fair a way as possible when dealing with it.
NB Read the papers tomorrow drumpot and you will not see to many pro PS articles. The main voice will be in favour of the private sector.
6. I can't speak for the unions, but i notice you have used question number 6 to take your 3rd personal swipe at me now.0 -
My Answer: You said yourself that you didnt want to discuss this kind of reality . . It only serves more to make you appear to be self interested, ignorant and deluded .
Drumpot you are sailing extremely close to the line with this comment, I advise you to word your statements more carefully in future, I can see what you're trying to say but what you said could very easily be interpreted as an insult.0 -
Name Changed wrote: »celticbhoy27 wrote: »
I think this is ridiculous. My brother is a Guard in the city center.
I showed him this post and asked him about it.
No way is that lad of 80k per year. 80k? Are you absolutely crazy? Plus, there is no way he is getting free breakfast, lunch and dinner anywhere. That might happen in some obscure place down in the country, but the Gards in the likes of the big city center stations do not get free breakfast lunch or dinner.
So either he was lying to you or you just completely made it up.
And, according to my brother, there is no overtime in Store St and Pearse St. The only overtime you can get is if you go to court apparently, and that is usually arranged that it's on your working day anyway.
80k and free food is pure waffle.
1. I did not make this up it's fact!
2. Overtime was by way of extra work at GAA, soccer and other related sporting events. Free entry into clubs, cinema, golf clubs etc.
3. Your brother must be a bit wet around the ears if he hasn't gone looking for all the freebies that the Guards offer.
80k was back then, it has probably gone up since. This was a Guard with 7 years work experience, who was promoted to an office position in Store street. I'm sure your brother will want to enquire about that now!
On another point, yes the breakfast, lunch and dinner was free. Fact!0
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