Have the Public Servants won the dispute?

Darragh29

And so commences the great big fudge...

I think this is the best thing that can happen now, give them loads of holidays, it will subsequently emerge that around 80% of them will have several days paid leave left to take anyway that will carry into next year or that some higher civil servants will be found to have built up a substantial holiday bank of paid holiday entitlement, and all of this will have the effect of offsetting any loss in income (and any saving in the public sector pay bill) because when it comes to taking this "unpaid leave", low and behold, you'll find that a load of these folks will have the same amount of "paid leave" entitlement... I worked in a company before where this was tried and everyone saw it coming and started harvesting their paid leave entitlement to offset the loss expected and it worked a dream for the workers, they actually profitted from the arrangement as there was substantial overtime available because such a balls was made of the plan by management across different shifts, huge gaps in cover, etc...

I'm delighted at hearing that this issue is going to be fudged, I'm going to buy a bottle of Champagne this evening to welcome in the IMF when they arrive next Easter...

Sizzler

Heard this morning that this brainless idea of unpaid leave is only going to generate €300m in savings :eek:

If this is all that comes out of this then we might as well pack up and emigrate, the place is rotten. Jack O'Connor and Begg will be ordering a new cuban and swirling a few brandy's later on :rolleyes:

dan_d

Band aid on a hole in a dam solution.
Otherwise known as pure crap.
Ironically (and I'm a big supporter of teachers), education WOULD be the easiest dept to work that in. How on earth you'd work it anywhere else though, is a mystery.
Why don't they just accept the inevitable?

hem

I wish I was offered unpaid leave (I even suggested it in company wide memo when we were asked for ideas on how to save the company money). What we got instead was a 20% pay cut. So now I work the same number of hours for less pay- Or as I explained it to my boss- He gets one day free out of me for every week.

dearg lady

it's kind of funny that on one side you have people saying, oh the sneaky govt, they got one over on the unions with this, and the other side people saying the unions still rule, and this won't save the govt money. Hmm which is it??!

I have to say I don't understand peoples logic when saying it would be better to lay people off, surely it would be better if everyone still had a job, albeit working shorter hours and for less pay.

ssaye

Info it it goes ahead
Additional 20 days unpaid, privilege days probably will go...most CS

Someone on 20 annual leave days a year, no flexitime now on 40 days off a year + 2 privilege days
Someone on 30 days a year no flexitime now on 50 days off a year + 2 privilege days
Someone on 30 days a year with flexi (max flexi time 2 days a month) now 74 days off a year

Just the facts

dearg lady

ssaye wrote: »

Info it it goes ahead
Additional 20 days unpaid, privilege days probably will go...most CS

Someone on 20 annual leave days a year, no flexitime now on 40 days off a year + 2 privilege days
Someone on 30 days a year no flexitime now on 50 days off a year + 2 privilege days
Someone on 30 days a year with flexi (max flexi time 2 days a month) now 74 days off a year

Just the facts

sorry, where did you get this info from, it doesn't seem to make much sense

Riskymove

ssaye wrote: »

Just the facts

just your guess you mean

there is no detail yet and lets not forget that the unpaid leave is only one part of an overall agreement

if everyone works a month less then they will probably lose some annual leave entitlement pro-rata

the privilege days were also speculated to be gotten rid of as part of this deal

several days paid leave left to take anyway that will carry into next year or that some higher civil servants will be found to have built up a substantial holiday bank of paid holiday entitlement

under the leave system you can carryover unused leave in certain circumstances and for only a certain timeframe and getting paid for them is a very difficult thing to get

I'd imagine it will be clamped down on under this new arrangemnt, if it comes in

ssaye

dearg lady wrote: »

sorry, where did you get this info from, it doesn't seem to make much sense

atm, staff in CS,PS can have 20 to 30 days annual leave a year. Some take an additional 14 days a year flexi time. If 20 days unpaid leave is brought it in it will be added to this annual leave. People will still get paid there annual leave entitlements and flexi time entitlements

Riskymove

ssaye wrote: »

atm, staff in CS,PS can have 20 to 30 days annual leave a year. Some take an additional 14 days a year flexi time. If 20 days unpaid leave is brought it in it will be added to this annual leave. People will still get paid there annual leave entitlements and flexi time entitlements

so? whats the point here?

if it was a straight pay cut people would still get their leave entitlements too

Liam79

12 days unpaid leave is bareable and would be accepted.
20 is practically a months wages and would certainly be rejected by frontline and on the shop floor lower paid workers in the PS

And for anyone here to tell me this isnt a paycut!!!! just get your heads out of your arses!!!!

dearg lady

ssaye wrote: »

atm, staff in CS,PS can have 20 to 30 days annual leave a year. Some take an additional 14 days a year flexi time. If 20 days unpaid leave is brought it in it will be added to this annual leave. People will still get paid there annual leave entitlements and flexi time entitlements

So as Riskymove put it....

Riskymove wrote: »

just your guess you mean

There's a lot of variations in annual leave and flexi arrangements within the overall public sector, you haven't even begun to cover it. Anyway, speculation on the finer details is probably a bit pointless at this time

westtip

Well if the lunchtime news is to be believed it is looking like the bearded gentlemen have once again hoodwinked the government of inaction to do what they are best at - Taking no serious action

When will Cowen and Co realise we are broke - the time for negotiating with the bearded gentlemen is over.

When will they get spines and stand and say Sorry guys but the fact your pay is linked to senior civil service pay is a joke.

Sorry guys but this time we are not even inviting you in for discussions in fact please have a few more days of action cos we need to save more money then I suggest the army goes on "manoeuvres" with 5 or 6 very slow moving wide vehicles moving north from say Drogheda on the day of action to stop the day of shopping.

The time has come to govern. they are going to be annihilated at the next election so govern, they have no money to buy votes this time, so govern.

Dr Galen

exactly, speculation is fairly pointless until we get some reputable sources.

Even if this leads to the calling off of Thursdays action, it will still have to be voted on by the union members. It will take some job by the head honchos to get it past the membership

Scofflaw

Please don't create new threads every time there's a new development.

moderately,
Scofflaw

tunney

Its a pay cut.
But its also a cut in services and its not enough to satisfy the markets in my view.

This is all for nothing IMHO.

dvpower

dearg lady wrote: »

I have to say I don't understand peoples logic when saying it would be better to lay people off, surely it would be better if everyone still had a job, albeit working shorter hours and for less pay.

It would be better (for public services anyway), if people worked the same hours for less pay. (Obviously it would be best of all if no one had to work for less pay, but that's not on the cards)

I could see how short time working might work in some areas, but this seems like a one size fits all solution that will just end up in resentment amongst public sector workers (low paid against high paid because the proposal isn't progressive, frontline against backoffice because it will not be practical for frontline workers to take leave).

Roll on threads here complaining that the government are trying to split the public service workers.

dearg lady

dvpower wrote: »

It would be better (for public services anyway), if people worked the same hours for less pay. (Obviously it would be best of all if no one had to work for less pay, but that's not on the cards)

I can understand this, but that's not what I was confused by. There's quite a few people advocating redundancies over shorter working hours, which I think is sheer madness!

dvpower wrote: »

I could see how short time working might work in some areas, but this seems like a one size fits all solution that will just end up in resentment amongst public sector workers (low paid against high paid because the proposal isn't progressive, frontline against backoffice because it will not be practical for frontline workers to take leave).

Roll on threads here complaining that the government are trying to split the public service workers.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see how it's supposed to be implemented (fairly??)!!

Riskymove

dvpower wrote: »

(low paid against high paid because the proposal isn't progressive, ).

how do you know?

articles i see say "up to 14 days"

celticbest

The bottom line with the Public Sector is that they have had it to easy for too long !!

Most people in the Private Sector have had to make major sacrifices with regard to both there pay and conditions since the recession started & this is just to ensure they keep there jobs & even then these are the lucky ones whom still have a job.

How many of the redundancies in the past 12 months have been from the Public sector???

In the education sector why should people be paid for the 2/3 months summer holidays they get and this is on top of Easter, Xmas & mid-term breaks during the school year. Surely some of these people could be used for cover in other Public sectors were the government is looking for 14 days unpaid leave to be taken.

At this stage people in the private sector are just sick of listening to the moaning and groaning of Public servants they should just be happy to still have a job. I know I am.

Josey Wales

celticbest wrote: »

At this stage people in the private sector are just sick of listening to the moaning and groaning of Public servants they should just be happy to still have a job. I know I am.

Funny I was just thinking how tired I am of private sector workers complaining about the public sector all the time.

I am happy to have a job but at this rate it won't be worth my while having it.

Rodgeb

Could this work?

It is the first 10-14 days holiday that are not paid for.
No carry over of holidays is allowed from one year to the next (this happens in all private companies I have worked for).
If you do not use your holidays you lose them.

That way the provision of services is not affected any more than it is due to holidays every other year and the financial savings are still made.
Employees get to choose the days they will not be paid for as per the standard procedure for booking holidays with management.

TGPS

celticbest wrote: »

The bottom line with the Public Sector is that they have had it to easy for too long !!

Most people in the Private Sector have had to make major sacrifices with regard to both there pay and conditions since the recession started & this is just to ensure they keep there jobs & even then these are the lucky ones whom still have a job.

How many of the redundancies in the past 12 months have been from the Public sector???

In the education sector why should people be paid for the 2/3 months summer holidays they get and this is on top of Easter, Xmas & mid-term breaks during the school year. Surely some of these people could be used for cover in other Public sectors were the government is looking for 14 days unpaid leave to be taken.

At this stage people in the private sector are just sick of listening to the moaning and groaning of Public servants they should just be happy to still have a job. I know I am.

I can only speak for my own little corner of the public service, but by the time next April rolls around we will have made 25% of our staff "redundant." No one is getting redundancy notices - they're just not having their contracts renewed. Neither are they getting a pay-off.

So there are redundancies in the public service, despite what the media would have you believe.

Also, before any arguments develop that this is not redundancy - try and place yourself in the position of someone who has been finished - it may not sound like redundancy, but I bet to them it feels like it.

My own view is serious redundancies are needed - we have too staff in the wrong positions doing the wrong jobs.

Also it's not a case of redundancies OR reductions in salary - both are needed.

And the final "R" needs to be rammed through as well - reform - but that's not as important on the short-term as the first two.

celticbest

Josey Wales wrote: »

Funny I was just thinking how tired I am of private sector workers complaining about the public sector all the time.

I am happy to have a job but at this rate it won't be worth my while having it.

I think Private Sector workers have far more of a right to complain then Public sector workers as all Private sector workers pay for the Public sector through taxes.

If there was no one working in the Private sector then were would the money to pay the Public sector come from??? Or could we just privatize all Public sector department were possible.

Riskymove

celticbest wrote: »

I think Private Sector wokers have far more of a right to complain then Public sector wokers as all Private sector workers pay for the Public sector through taxes.

ALL pay the taxes????:rolleyes:

TGPS

Rodgeb wrote: »

Could this work?

It is the first 10-14 days holiday that are not paid for.
No carry over of holidays is allowed from one year to the next (this happens in all private companies I have worked for).
If you do not use your holidays you lose them.

That way the provision of services is not affected any more than it is due to holidays every other year and the financial savings are still made.
Employees get to choose the days they will not be paid for as per the standard procedure for booking holidays with management.

No is the short answer. Tax rebates will be due for the weeks not worked - that will eat into the savings. And my reading of it so far is that the 2 weeks will not be compulsory for everyone - probably teachers, Guards, nurses, and a few other categories will be exempt - as will those deemed "essential" (usual code for HR!) - it just buys some time for Cowen and Lenihan to grow a pair.

celticbest wrote: »

I think Private Sector wokers have far more of a right to complain then Public sector wokers as all Private sector workers pay for the Public sector through taxes.

If there was no one working in the Private sector then were would the money to pay the Public sector come from??? Or could we just privatize all Public sector department were possible.

......and if a bull had tits it would be a cow:) Nobody has a "rght" to complain - plus what's the point? We all got ourselves into this mess, we'll all have to get ourselves out - arguing about who is more to blame is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog!

MaceFace

TGPS wrote: »

I can only speak for my own little corner of the public service, but by the time next April rolls around we will have made 25% of our staff "redundant." No one is getting redundancy notices - they're just not having their contracts renewed. Neither are they getting a pay-off.

So there are redundancies in the public service, despite what the media would have you believe.

Also, before any arguments develop that this is not redundancy - try and place yourself in the position of someone who has been finished - it may not sound like redundancy, but I bet to them it feels like it.

My own view is serious redundancies are needed - we have too staff in the wrong positions doing the wrong jobs.

Also it's not a case of redundancies OR reductions in salary - both are needed.

And the final "R" needs to be rammed through as well - reform - but that's not as important on the short-term as the first two.

You are right in that people are losing their jobs but I don't count these as redundancies in the same way as contractors in the private sector who don't have their contracts renewed as redundancies.

While I am not really in favour of redundancies I do think that the admin side in the PS is massively bloated which results in many people with little work.
I would love these people to be reassigned but the fact is that there is not that much work available to keep this amount of people employed and productive (I am basing this on a conversation I had with a front line PS employee who gave me examples of people he knows and what they have
said).
These people who are not on contracts but are protected need to lose that protection, be made redundant and with the savings we could look at hiring more essential people into the PS.

celticbest

Riskymove wrote: »

ALL pay the taxes????:rolleyes:

Were does Public sector pay come from??? The Private sector through taxes.

All Public sector taxes only go back to the place they came from in the first place, the government. Where did the government get the money to pay the Public sector??? .........The Private Sector.

So who's really on the end of this vicious circle?? The Private sector worker who has to worry if there job will still be there next week.

celticbest

TGPS wrote: »

......and if bull had tits it would be a cow:) Nobody has a "rght" to complain - plus what's the point? We all got ourselves into this mess, we'll all have to get ourselves out - arguing about who is more to blame is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog!

I would agree with you if I didn't have to listen to this Public sector dispute today and then this one tomorrow and so on....

We all just have to make the most of what we have, don't forget in the long run if people have less money to spend then the prices in shops will fall & this in turn will lead to peoples living standards not dropping as dramatically as would be envisioned by most people currently.

Riskymove

celticbest wrote: »

Were does Public sector pay come from??? The Private sector through taxes.

All Public sector taxes only go back to the place they came from in the first place, the government. Where did the government get the money to pay the Public sector??? .........The Private Sector.

So who's really on the end of this vicious circle?? The Private sector worker who has to worry if there job will still be there next week.

none of that has anything to do with my question but please go on if you like


around half of earners dont pay income tax at all

of the revenue collected a significant amount is recouped from Public workers

in addition, a large element of our tax revenue over the recent years has been through stamp duty, VRT, etc

Now given how fabtabulously wealthy public sector workers are:pac:, its likely that a good proportion of that was from public workers