Have the Public Servants won the dispute?

celticbest · 01-12-2009 4:57pm

Riskymove wrote: »

none of that has anything to do with my question but please go on if you like

around half of earners dont pay income tax at all

of the revenue collected a significant amount is recouped from Public workers

in addition, a large element of our tax revenue over the recent years has been through stamp duty, VRT, etc

Now given how fabtabulously wealthy public sector workers are:pac:, its likely that a good proportion of that was from public workers

Yes and all of this revenue was originally from Private Sector PAYE, recycled into the Public sector pay.

Yes Public sector workers are paying VRT & Stamp Duty though money which originated in the Private Sector.

Please name something that the Private generates revenue through that is not a service & which could not be privatised in the morning for a fraction of the running costs??

Dr Galen · 01-12-2009 5:01pm

celticbest wrote: »

Yes and all of this revenue was originally from Private Sector PAYE, recycled into the Public sector pay.

Yes Public sector workers are paying VRT & Stamp Duty though money which originated in the Private Sector.

chicken....egg....related to OP how?

Please name something that the Private generates revenue through that is not a service & which could not be privatised in the morning for a fraction of the running costs??

I'm not sure i understand your question? The primary function of the PS is not to generate revenue, but provide services

Riskymove · 01-12-2009 5:01pm

celticbest wrote: »

Yes and all of this revenue was originally from Private Sector PAYE, recycled into the Public sector pay.

Yes Public sector workers are paying VRT & Stamp Duty though money which originated in the Private Sector.

you refuse to see my point now

off you go on another tangent, enjoy.....

Darragh29 · 01-12-2009 5:04pm

It amazes me how staff redundacies in the private sector do not impact on the service provided to the customer because those kept on have to just do more if the business is to survive, but strangely when the same is asked of the public sector worker, the warcry always is, "ah, services will be reduced then"... The idea of having to do more for the same renumeration is absolutely alien to them...

Count Dooku · 01-12-2009 5:09pm

Riskymove wrote: »

Now given how fabtabulously wealthy public sector workers are:pac:, its likely that a good proportion of that was from public workers

So government has to borrow 24 Bn in order to get 7Bn of taxes. If government will borrow half PS payroll bill, it will collect only 2.5 Bn, but will save 12 Bn, which is equal to 9 Bn of profit :rolleyes:

Riskymove · 01-12-2009 5:11pm

Count Dooku wrote: »

So government has to borrow 24 Bn in order to get 7Bn of taxes. If government will borrow half PS payroll bill, it will collect only 2.5 Bn, but will save 12 Bn, which is equal to 9 Bn of profit :rolleyes:

sorry thats gone past me!!

can you expand a bit

celticbest · 01-12-2009 5:16pm

Riskymove wrote: »

sorry thats gone past me!!

can you expand a bit

Yes it gone over my head a bit as well.

Riskymove wrote: »

you refuse to see my point now

off you go on another tangent, enjoy.....

I was only replying to your previous quote and trying to explain how all taxes are originally raised, I think you didn't understand my point.

Riskymove · 01-12-2009 5:19pm

celticbest wrote: »

Riskymove wrote: »

I was only replying to your previous quote and trying to explain how all taxes are originally raised, I think you didn't understand my point.

you said that "ALL" private workers paid the taxes to pay public sector

I dont agree, they don't all pay tax and others pay very little

I do understand that public service pay is paid out of taxation, however, many people overlook the fact that a large proportion of public sector pay bill is recycled back to excehquer

Euro_Kraut · 01-12-2009 5:24pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

It amazes me how staff redundacies in the private sector do not impact on the service provided to the customer ...

Nonsense. Plenty of companies have cut back on staff and consquently on customer servies. For example, Arnotts made a decision to open at 10am in the morning instead of 9am due to staff cutbacks.

Lets not glorify all business in the private sector.

dvpower · 01-12-2009 5:31pm

Riskymove wrote: »

how do you know?

articles i see say "up to 14 days"

True enough, I don't know for sure. Its all speculation for now.
I just can't see the junior staff (who normally man the barricades) being sent off on leave while the middle management pen pushers (who everyone, public sector staff included, complains about) stay at work.

celticbest · 01-12-2009 5:32pm

Riskymove wrote: »

celticbest wrote: »

you said that "ALL" private workers paid the taxes to pay public sector

I dont agree, they don't all pay tax and others pay very little

I do understand that public service pay is paid out of taxation, however, many people overlook the fact that a large proportion of public sector pay bill is recycled back to excehquer

Sorry for my slip of the tongue in saying all. I know the ones that don't pay tax as the seriously low earners.

Yes most public sector pay is recycled to the exchequer through both direct and indirect taxes all I was saying originally is Public Sector workers should stop there moaning and accept that times are changing and in the current economic environment there has to be a reduction across the board of which a large proportion of the Private Sector have already been forced to make.

I myself took a paycut, pay a larger percentage of my salary into my pension & got hit by the Income levy by the Government in the past year. All in all I'm down between 400 to 500 a month and I'm not a high earner. My salary has to look after my wife and 2 kids as well as myself, I've cut back on my spending over the past year as needs be.

The main thing I'm grateful for is that in taking the pay cut and giving a larger percentage of my salary towards my pension I still have a job to go to and it looks a lot more secure because of the allowances I have had to make.

unemployed · 01-12-2009 5:38pm

10 to 14 days a year should be no problem.

That's about the right amount of days they go on strike every year

Darragh29 · 01-12-2009 5:38pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Nonsense. Plenty of companies have cut back on staff and consquently on customer servies. For example, Arnotts made a decision to open at 10am in the morning instead of 9am due to staff cutbacks.

Lets not glorify all business in the private sector.

It's simply not open to most private sector businesses to deal with pay cuts and/or redundancies by way of calling union meetings and fighting the path of most resistance at every juncture while the business goes further down the tubes. People realise that they have to do more for the same renumeration or the business fails and their job is gone. It should be no different for the public sector. There should be no discussion about any of this down at government builidings, what is needed is a set of decisions and those decisions need to be committed to and then executed without delay. If people want to strike in the face of such a national crisis, then let them strike and dock their pay.

Bruce2008 · 01-12-2009 5:42pm

Dickerty wrote: »

Do these staff take their lunch and tea breaks? I bet they do. I don't, because I have a lot to work to do.

Don't want to shift from the discussion, but everybody is entitled to tea breaks and lunch breaks... it is your descision not to take them... just because you do does not mean anybody else should... anyone would be a fool to do this in the long term... it took long enough to get to these basic conditions for workers...:mad:

RedPlanet · 01-12-2009 5:43pm

Let them strike and see if we can't find some suitable newly unemployed persons from the private sector to take their places.

Euro_Kraut · 01-12-2009 5:43pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

It's simply not open to most private sector businesses to deal with pay cuts and/or redundancies by way of calling union meetings and fighting the path of most resistance at every juncture while the business goes further down the tubes. People realise that they have to do more for the same renumeration or the business fails and their job is gone. It should be no different for the public sector. There should be no discussion about any of this down at government builidings, what is needed is a set of decisions and those decisions need to be committed to and then executed without delay. If people want to strike in the face of such a national crisis, then let them strike and dock their pay.

Right....You didn't come near to addressing my point or acknowledging that you were wrong in saying the staff cut in the private sector has had no impact on customer services.

westtip · 01-12-2009 5:46pm

I think its tragic if they are not going on strike on Thursday - it would have saved the country a fortune.

Euro_Kraut · 01-12-2009 5:47pm

RedPlanet wrote: »

Let them strike and see if we can't find some suitable newly unemployed persons from the private sector to take their places.

Should be easy to find 20,000 or so Nurses overnight alright. 50,000 qualified teachers shouldn't be too hard too.

Seriously, it posts like yours that drag down debates on this topic. If you do not have anything sensbile to contribute its best to say nothing.

westtip · 01-12-2009 5:51pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Should be easy to find 20,000 or so Nurses overnight alright. 50,000 qualified teachers shouldn't be too hard too.

Seriously, it posts like yours that drag down debates on this topic. If you do not have anything sensbile to contribute its best to say nothing.

Its not the teachers and nurses thats the big moral issue but the fat cats at the top management levels in the civil service who need to be clipped back seriously. Teachers are overpaid but the big cuts need to come at the top management levels in the PS and in the political classes.

Everyone is just sick of them. County managers on 250k a year, etc total joke.

celticbest · 01-12-2009 5:55pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Should be easy to find 20,000 or so Nurses overnight alright. 50,000 qualified teachers shouldn't be too hard too.

Seriously, it posts like yours that drag down debates on this topic. If you do not have anything sensbile to contribute its best to say nothing.

You would not have to find 20,000 nurses overnight as the majority would be back at work after a week or two as there bills would start to mount up and require payment which requires an income which is something not forthcoming when you are on strike, a few quid from the Union won't cover everything.

As for teachers there are plenty of Third level graduates whom are currently not working + you will have the third level graduates from this year whom I sure would only be to glad to take up these positions. As far as I'm aware you can work as an unqualified teacher once you have a third level degree, ( this is open to correction if I'm wrong).

The main point is money talks, and the bottom line is if you don't have any you can't live.

PS. Don't forget everyone is replacable in this world.

Darragh29 · 01-12-2009 5:58pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Right....You didn't come near to addressing my point or acknowledging that you were wrong in saying the staff cut in the private sector has had no impact on customer services.

You don't get how simple this is, it's as simple as A B C. There are A activities that have to be collectively carried out in a particular day by staff to provide a level of customer service that keeps the business coming into your business and not going to your competitor, which is measured in C which is called revenue. There is an amount B called renumeration, that can be paid to provide those services.

Either A gets done collectively for the cost of B which generates C which keeps the business open for another day, or else A doesn't get done, so C doesn't get generated so B can't be paid...

This is how it works in the private sector, a union might protect your pay, they cannot protect your job if it is gone.

EDIT: http://www.insolvencyjournal.ie/index.aspx

dvpower · 01-12-2009 6:02pm

westtip wrote: »

I think its tragic if they are not going on strike on Thursday - it would have saved the country a fortune.

They are going on strike on Thursday, aren't they? Was it called off?

Count Dooku · 01-12-2009 6:03pm

Riskymove wrote: »

celticbest wrote: »

you said that "ALL" private workers paid the taxes to pay public sector

I dont agree, they don't all pay tax and others pay very little

I do understand that public service pay is paid out of taxation, however, many people overlook the fact that a large proportion of public sector pay bill is recycled back to excehquer

i.e. all net pay for PS workers paid by private sector

Dr Galen · 01-12-2009 6:07pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

You don't get how simple this is, it's as simple as A B C. There are A activities that have to be collectively carried out in a particular day by staff to provide a level of customer service that keeps the business coming into your business and not going to your competitor, which is measured in C which is called revenue. There is an amount B called renumeration, that can be paid to provide those services.

Either A gets done collectively for the cost of B which generates C which keeps the business open for another day, or else A doesn't get done, so C doesn't get generated so B can't be paid...

This is how it works in the private sector, a union might protect your pay, they cannot protect your job if it is gone.

EDIT: http://www.insolvencyjournal.ie/index.aspx

your post, while technically not incorrect, assumes that everyone working in the private sector has the in-built want to do this. I know plenty of people in the private sector who i would call lazy..The common good that your speaking of only really exists in textbooks. It seems that the mantra of private sector good, public sector bad, has really taken hold in your head.

dogeyknees · 01-12-2009 6:12pm

I think this is another cop out by Cowen and his cronies and another instance of the unions bullying to get their way. Bottom line is that the government need to drastically rethink they way the Public Sector is run and treat each entity like an individual company with budgets and targets. If the budget is strained or cut or targets are not met, they will need to shed jobs or hours like any trading company has to. The way the public sector is run is completely out of date and the unions are allowed to throw their weight around in order to keep it that way. I agree with the principals of unions but their power in this country has to be curbed.

Bottom line, this country is in the ****, The private sector is being massacared - i have had to take a 37% worth of paycuts and im working circa 50 hours a week to try and help the company i work for out, im sure im not alone either. in order to maintain balance, the Public Sector needs to fall in line. The cost of living will not go down whilst there is a huge disparity in wages.

Something has to be done, and once again out great leader has preformed like a 90 year old at an orgie without his blue pills.

stainluss · 01-12-2009 6:14pm

The cost of living has gone down this year.

Is it not only reasonable that they take a paycut?
I know if the cost of living went up they would be marching for more € lol

I agree that they shouldnt neccesarily cut all the public servants at the same rate. They should chip a bit more off the top level management in things such as county councils. Maybe even delayer the civil structure, they get little done anyways

The reason this is taking so long is because its being over complicated by the people in power. ffs we need some decisive people in power:rolleyes:

Darragh29 · 01-12-2009 6:18pm

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

your post, while technically not incorrect, assumes that everyone working in the private sector has the in-built want to do this. I know plenty of people in the private sector who i would call lazy..The common good that your speaking of only really exists in textbooks. It seems that the mantra of private sector good, public sector bad, has really taken hold in your head.

I doubt anyone who knows that their employer is struggling to keep the doors open would agree with your thoughts above. Nobody wants to have to do more for the same (or less) pay, but there is an inconvenient truth here called SURVIVAL that makes people step up to the line in order to keep the ship afloat. Unfortunately the word "survival", is a new word for the public sector, the meaning of which has still to sink in. When you are borrowing half a billion a fortnight as a country just to turn the lights on, then you are in the survival game, known in the private sector as, "being in the manure business"...

Dr Galen · 01-12-2009 6:29pm

Darragh29 wrote: »

I doubt anyone who knows that their employer is struggling to keep the doors open would agree with your thoughts above. Nobody wants to have to do more for the same (or less) pay, but there is an inconvenient truth here called SURVIVAL that makes people step up to the line in order to keep the ship afloat. Unfortunately the word "survival", is a new word for the public sector, the meaning of which has still to sink in. When you are borrowing half a billion a fortnight as a country just to turn the lights on, then you are in the survival game, known in the private sector as, "being in the manure business"...

Speaking on a personal level, I'm, like you, one of those people that would,( and have) stepped up to the survival game plate. Thats while working in both the public and private sectors.

But, I have also seen it, that some people, no matter where they work or what they do, really don't give a crap. To pontificate here, that everyone in the private sector shares, your and my attitudes, is just not true.

What I also have no time for, is the constant tarring of all sides with one brush. Not every one in the private sector works a million hours a week for 3 cent and a bottle of coke, not every private sector worker creamed it during the boom years. Not every Public sector worker is on a permanent and pensionable job, or earning multiples of what they earn in Norway.

All this gets away from the real point imho. If this enforced unpaid leave nonsense gets passed, then it shows me that the government and the unions were engaged in nothing more than shadow puppetry for the last number of weeks. It shows that we really have the lunatics running the asylum and instead of fighting among ourselves, our anger should rightfully be directed at those in power.

griffzino · 01-12-2009 6:30pm

Yep.. keep cutting Cowen and Lenihan. This is sure fire way to further DEFLATE our economy. We have a €11.7 Billion deficit on our current account of which €1.2 Billion is our contribution to the EU budget. Sure we need operational effiencies, but not savage widespread cuts. Lets rebalance our tax net. That is requried after years of relying on CGT, Stamp, VRT, Etc. We now need to get more from PAYE workers and other sources.

We keep cutting and business keeps suffering. Our GDP is north of €170B. Our national debt is still under 50% of that. What about stimulating our way out of this as EVERY other country has done. We are doing the opposite. Lets cut social welfare by 5% as a start, but cut VAT temporarily to 17.5% to mitigate the impact on those on welfare. Lets face it.. their money is spent every week. They will benefit from VAT and lose little purchasing power. It will, however stimulate spending in all sections of society.

Talk of cutting pay over €35K for example. Even a 10% cut is only a 5% cut in real terms when you take into account 41% PAYE and 8% PRSI + Levies. What about the further pension levy on PS workers. Most of the net pay at this level is spent so less VAT, Excise, VRT, and so on.

As for for you cut public sector mob. I'm a teacher. Yes we have great holidays, but I'm a first class degree holder and was attracted into teaching by pay and holidays. For my first 6 years teaching I was on 60-75% of a teachers salary due to part-time hours (most young teachers are in this stage). Even now I am slightly above the average INDUSTRIAL wage. What about the opportunity cost of spending 5 years in tertiary education??? I could have worked for those 5 years at the average indsutrial wage. Yep.. I started teaching at minus €175K because i chose to get educated rather than work!! Am i not entitled to superior wages to make up this gap over the course of a working lifetime. Do we not need oustanding graduates in teaching to educate the Irish people of tomorrow.

As for attacking our penions. Lets remember we pay PRSI and dont get state pension like everyone else. That is our PRSI payment for no €250 a week. So again our pensions have to take into account the opportunity cost of not gettign a state pension. So if we have a pension at retirment of €480 a week, then it is only €230 a week taking the above into account. We dont get that for free. We pay a % of salary to get that. It is of an aaporximate amount that you would need to pay into a private pension arrangement. Their is no incremental benefit in OUR pensions!.

I dont agree with striking, and I feel our unionised systems are embarrasing to some extent, but I am sick of every Joe soap attacking a well respected profession like mine. We have paid already with a 7.5% cut before the impact of levies. Most of my friends are still in work in the private sector and some have double my wages for many years. Some are out or work now, but coined it over the last 10 years. Carpenters, plumber, Sparkies that were makign nearly 100K a year. Were they the guys who worked in school?? No. I dont remember it that way. The solicitors are out of work now too, but again they enjoyed the good times more than most. Their time will come again soon.

I am really angry with you public sector bashers.
Surely we all can pay through a reform of the tax system and getting rid of excess in public sector likfe excessive pay for middle and upper mangement. Dont keep goin to the well to pickpocket the rank and file low-to-middle income workers. Some of us worked hard to get here and deserve our pay and conditions.

dogeyknees · 01-12-2009 6:38pm

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

Speaking on a personal level, I'm, like you, one of those people that would,( and have) stepped up to the survival game plate. Thats while working in both the public and private sectors.

But, I have also seen it, that some people, no matter where they work or what they do, really don't give a crap. To pontificate here, that everyone in the private sector shares, your and my attitudes, is just not true.

What I also have no time for, is the constant tarring of all sides with one brush. Not every one in the private sector works a million hours a week for 3 cent and a bottle of coke, not every private sector worker creamed it during the boom years. Not every Public sector worker is on a permanent and pensionable job, or earning multiples of what they earn in Norway.

All this gets away from the real point imho. If this enforced unpaid leave nonsense gets passed, then it shows me that the government and the unions were engaged in nothing more than shadow puppetry for the last number of weeks. It shows that we really have the lunatics running the asylum and instead of fighting among ourselves, our anger should rightfully be directed at those in power.

I completely agree that you cant tar everyone with the same brush, my mother is a part-time VTOS teacher who had to take the 10% pension levy even though she is not actually entitled to a pension. I do think that of the public sector workers i know (and thats quite a few), the level of pay is way out of kilter and there are definitely too many chiefs. There could be a lot of jobs cuts and the Public Sector could be easily streamlined with no reprecussions to outlay but the unions won't allow this - the bottom line is that the Public Sector is too top heavy and rather than trimming the fat, the unions once again want to inflict the pain on everyone.

Have the Public Servants won the dispute?

Comments