Have the Public Servants won the dispute?

Scofflaw

Darragh29 wrote: »

I doubt anyone who knows that their employer is struggling to keep the doors open would agree with your thoughts above. Nobody wants to have to do more for the same (or less) pay, but there is an inconvenient truth here called SURVIVAL that makes people step up to the line in order to keep the ship afloat. Unfortunately the word "survival", is a new word for the public sector, the meaning of which has still to sink in. When you are borrowing half a billion a fortnight as a country just to turn the lights on, then you are in the survival game, known in the private sector as, "being in the manure business"...

That's not actually true - workers in private sector businesses can easily be so reluctant to take a pay cut personally that together they sink the business. It tends to get worse with collective discussions, in my experience, because it only takes one person in such discussions saying that they won't take a pay cut to bring the whole negotiation to a juddering halt as everyone else says "well, I won't either then".

Public sector workers aren't a different sort of people, you know. Well, apart from sharing more of their genes with crabs, obviously.

cordially,
Scofflaw

griffzino

RedPlanet wrote: »

Let them strike and see if we can't find some suitable newly unemployed persons from the private sector to take their places.

ya. throw in some chippies, blockies, sparkies and labourers.. (who coined it the last 10 years) to teach my business/economics & accounting classes.. Nice one..

We have 12% unempoyment.. 4.5% is a natural level of unemployment in Ireland during the good times.. so a 7.5% effective rate. 8 people in effect out of 95 are unemployed. Lets face it most of these are from the secondary sector (construction and manufacturing). What we need to do is retrain these people and efforts like halving welfare for under 23/25 unless in full-time training course is about the only good idea i've heard coming out of Lenihan.

Darragh29

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

Speaking on a personal level, I'm, like you, one of those people that would,( and have) stepped up to the survival game plate. Thats while working in both the public and private sectors.

But, I have also seen it, that some people, no matter where they work or what they do, really don't give a crap. To pontificate here, that everyone in the private sector shares, your and my attitudes, is just not true.

What I also have no time for, is the constant tarring of all sides with one brush. Not every one in the private sector works a million hours a week for 3 cent and a bottle of coke, not every private sector worker creamed it during the boom years. Not every Public sector worker is on a permanent and pensionable job, or earning multiples of what they earn in Norway.

All this gets away from the real point imho. If this enforced unpaid leave nonsense gets passed, then it shows me that the government and the unions were engaged in nothing more than shadow puppetry for the last number of weeks. It shows that we really have the lunatics running the asylum and instead of fighting among ourselves, our anger should rightfully be directed at those in power.

There is an indifference and a blindness within the public sector that I just don't see in the private sector. I've a mate who lost his job 2 months ago and he has been dealing with the Dept. of Social Welfare for the last two months to get the dole, they can't take phone calls claiming that the phone system is "broken" in the whole building, he goes down every day looking for someone to call him back regarding his application, he never gets a call, just blind indifference and a casual disregard for his situation.

I've had dealings with the County Enterprise Board recently, an organisation that is so utterly useless and obstructive and incompetent, that it is nothing less than a crime that it still gets taxpayers funds.

What seems to be driving this unquestionable contempt for the public user of such services, the smugness and the notion of entrenchment, entitlement and automatic consultation and the right to veto and obstruct everything that happens in your workplace, is the fact that you cannot be dismissed from your position and you have a union that calls the shots and that dictates ancient working practices that belong back in the 18th century, when phones were not used in offices, where people sit back smugly and decide to basically be unproductive, in some kind of f*cked up attempt to retaliate against a government that has cut and will continue to cut the pay of public sector workers.

A private sector business that operates like this simply ends up shut due to lack of trade, because the market will sort out a business like this. Look at the likes of SR Technics, Waterford Crystal, Packard Bell, Aer Lingus, all highly unionised workplaces opposed to change, all are now shut with the exception of Aer Lingus, which right now would lose money at a lesser rate if it bought a furnace and tried to set fire to its capital.

I've never been more convinced since last weeks strike, that what we need now is the privatisation of as many public services in Ireland as soon as possible.

Rookster

It sounds like the Government does not have the balls to face down the unions. It probably just means that the IMF will arrive here faster.

Darragh29

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's not actually true - workers in private sector businesses can easily be so reluctant to take a pay cut personally that together they sink the business. It tends to get worse with collective discussions, in my experience, because it only takes one person in such discussions saying that they won't take a pay cut to bring the whole negotiation to a juddering halt as everyone else says "well, I won't either then".

Public sector workers aren't a different sort of people, you know. Well, apart from sharing more of their genes with crabs, obviously.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I'm not saying that everyone embraces a pay cut or changed terms & conditions that mean more work for the same renumeration. What I'm saying is that in the private sector, leaving out the highly unionised end of the private sector, people typically don't have a choice, as I said it, A B C, it's either express your disagreement and get on with it or else we pull down the shutters.

In the public sector, we've seen at least six months of political DITHERING, while we continue to borrow half a billion a fortnight, as I said, what is needed now is less talking and a simple set of harsh decisions and a commitment to those decisions and an execution of the plan.

Darragh29

Rookster wrote: »

It sounds like the Government does not have the balls to face down the unions. It probably just means that the IMF will arrive here faster.

Just heard on the Six One News that Thirsday's strike has been called off. I'm so glad that the government has bottled it now. This means we will default on our debt and these lads will be up against the real deal come next Easter I imagine at the latest...

Dr Galen

Darragh29 wrote: »

as I said, what is needed now is less talking and a simple set of harsh decisions and a commitment to those decisions and an execution of the plan.

so a dictatorship in essence?

Darragh29

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

so a dictatorship in essence?

No, a realignment of rights with a view to restoring the national interest again. Unions have several roles to play in society, but setting/forcing and sustaining bad policy decisions of the last government is not one of them...

ixoy

I'll be very curious to see how this unpaid leave will work - not all departments can spare people in the same way. Some could probably easily spare 100% of their staff 100% of the time, whereas others barely a person.

Did unions consult with the different branches? I can imagine different views from various Asst. Sec in each department about capacity (for example). How will it be organised? Do PS workers even want that? Will they be prepared to pick up the slack raised by people not being there?

RTE News also reports that the talks have failed to produce a modernisation agenda - why? It's core to what they need to do.

There's also no figures about the savings received - if the government haven't got their €1.3bn where will the shortfall be made up? Taxes up somewhere else? More borrowing?

miju

well looks like this is gonna be a deal. TBH it's a very good deal that the unions have hammered out on a couple of levels:

1: rather than a flat out pay cut at least we're getting something for it (few days off). As less face it we were getting a pay cut one way or another.

2: 16 days unpaid leave equates to about a 5% cut in everyones pay when you factor in increments which are going to be left alone this only equates to a 2-3% pay cut give or take. Something I can well live with.

3: Private sector get their blood but also get a reduction in services by the sounds of things which to be quite frank given the complete and utter tosh some of the private sector reps have been coming out with despite figures to the contrary is deserved.

4: Gubberment can claim €850m of pay bill savings when in reality from what I've heard when the frontline services are excluded (which seems to be the plan) the savings will only be about €300m

Anyways, if the unions pull of this deal and the gubberment bottle it then fair do's

WRENALDO

No initial pay cuts for the Public Service . I myself have taken 33% pay cut in the private sector whilst working more hours and ditto some friends of mine whilst these pricks are arguing having to work after 600pm .This is disgraceful . If the government doesn't show backbone here this week it's all out war. !

hawker

Darragh29 wrote: »

Just heard on the Six One News that Thirsday's strike has been called off. I'm so glad that the government has bottled it now. This means we will default on our debt and these lads will be up against the real deal come next Easter I imagine at the latest...

Ever think of working for The National Enquirer?

Sensationalism at it's best!! The mother of all sorrows.

P. Breathnach

WRENALDO wrote: »

... If the government doesn't show backbone here this week it's all out war. !

And what does that mean?

GoldenTickets

WRENALDO wrote: »

No initial pay cuts for the Public Service . I myself have taken 33% pay cut in the private sector whilst working more hours and ditto some friends of mine whilst these pricks are arguing having to work after 600pm .This is disgraceful . If the government doesn't show backbone here this week it's all out war. !

LOL!

miju

WRENALDO wrote: »

No initial pay cuts for the Public Service . I myself have taken 33% pay cut in the private sector whilst working more hours and ditto some friends of mine whilst these pricks are arguing having to work after 600pm .This is disgraceful . If the government doesn't show backbone here this week it's all out war. !

well then you should have joined the public sector to be quite honest so why didnt you? I'll hazard a guess that the crap lower level pay made you choose the more rewarding private sector.

either way your post is a classic rant LOL

Jamie-b

Don't see how unpaid leave will work. I work in the public sector and since the recruitment freeze we have lost a lot of staff (fixed term contracts). Not only that, since it's education we are busier than ever with people returning to study. It doesn't seem possible to force everyone to take 2 weeks unpaid leave when there are staff shortages everywhere

jprender

Jamie-b wrote: »

Don't see how unpaid leave will work. I work in the public sector and since the recruitment freeze we have lost a lot of staff (fixed term contracts). Not only that, since it's education we are busier than ever with people returning to study. It doesn't seem possible to force everyone to take 2 weeks unpaid leave when there are staff shortages everywhere

It just means that you will have to work harder for the time that you are in work.

snaps

Im really pleased the public sector still have their jobs. Im earning 10k less than last year and at the moment im lucky if im working 4 days a week (On a good week) and im in a sort of recesion free industry (Catering).

What with price increases, lower limits in drink drive limits the catering/hospitality industry will be in a worse position next year.

miju

Jamie-b wrote: »

It doesn't seem possible to force everyone to take 2 weeks unpaid leave when there are staff shortages everywhere

it's not to be honest so in essence we will be back to the bad old days of massive backlogs for all sorts of services in no time.

jprender wrote: »

It just means that you will have to work harder for the time that you are in work.

Now I'm not trolling here but do you really think a generally demotivated staff will work harder or just say **** it cos I have my job anyways. Believe it or not ALOT of things in the public service can't actually be done any faster do to legal / procedural issues.

I could think of 10 examples off the top of my head where things physically cant be done any faster. suppose we could always get the teachers to teach the syllabus faster but don't think that would help our supposed "knowledge economy".

hawker

miju wrote: »

well looks like this is gonna be a deal. TBH it's a very good deal that the unions have hammered out on a couple of levels:

1: rather than a flat out pay cut at least we're getting something for it (few days off). As less face it we were getting a pay cut one way or another.

2: 16 days unpaid leave equates to about a 5% cut in everyones pay when you factor in increments which are going to be left alone this only equates to a 2-3% pay cut give or take. Something I can well live with.

3: Private sector get their blood but also get a reduction in services by the sounds of things which to be quite frank given the complete and utter tosh some of the private sector reps have been coming out with despite figures to the contrary is deserved.

4: Gubberment can claim €850m of pay bill savings when in reality from what I've heard when the frontline services are excluded (which seems to be the plan) the savings will only be about €300m

Anyways, if the unions pull of this deal and the gubberment bottle it then fair do's

Do you honestly think that someof the Private Sector posters will think they've got their blood?

They'll never be happy, no matter what.

Jamie-b

It just means that you will have to work harder for the time that you are in work.

It's not a case of working harder each day as such. It's a case of working longer hours. Services will be limited. If everyone has to take 2 weeks extra off offices etc will close. Unless they shut the whole place down for two weeks, (probably most reasonable idea) it's not workable

Lawros Tache

WRENALDO wrote: »

No initial pay cuts for the Public Service . I myself have taken 33% pay cut in the private sector whilst working more hours and ditto some friends of mine whilst these pricks are arguing having to work after 600pm .This is disgraceful . If the government doesn't show backbone here this week it's all out war. !

:rolleyes:

That_Guy

Thank fcuk this is called off..... No queues in Newry for me.

Drumpot

The most frightening thing about these kind of debates is the lack of knowledge by so many posters . . .

I will try another approach as the most logical of debates turn into "I bet you wouldnt join the public service during celtic tiger years" or some sort of union rhetoric like that . .

. . . . . . . .

Me me me me me me me . .

Im the ONLY person in this recession . . I have taken more pain then anybody . . Im more important then you and do a more important job . .

Enough is enough . .

Why dont people feel sorry for me ? Sure all those in the private sector took their chances with their jobs and their pension. Dont throw job security and pension guarantee in my face, its all their own fault. But why dont they understand my pain ?

Despite the fact the majority in the private sector are on a wage below 30k (that pittance figure thrown out by unions like its piss!), they all laughed at those in the public service during the boom years.

Despite the fact that there were (at any given times) up to 60,000 jobs available in all sectors, its only worth pointing out that EVERYBODY in the private sector turned down public service jobs (dont want to discuss the fact that there are only so many public service jobs).

Why do they keep going on about 450k unemployed. Sure there are 300 people laid off in the public service every month. Ok they are people who choose to leave service themselves, but none the less it shows how difficult it is for us . .

And one of those banks gave their employees a payrise. We all know that this represents the whole private sector . . they are all at it ! !

In summary . . I have sympathy for those who have lost their jobs or who are worried about losing them, but its nowhere near as upsetting as the potential to lose up to 15% of your wage in the space of a year ! they dont know what recession is ! !

miju

hawker wrote: »

Do you honestly think that someof the Private Sector posters will think they've got their blood?

They'll never be happy, no matter what.

Oh I know that most private sectors workers wont rest till all public sector workers are on a slaves wage or put out of a job you can clearly see that by some of the hysterical posts above. Which is why I've started to really not be bothered by what private sector say these days and a fair few colleagues are of the same mind.

erictheviking

:rolleyes:

stainluss wrote: »

The cost of living has gone down this year.

:D:DMaybe if you are a student or layabout the cost of living has come down

The cost of living has gone up! These are facts!
My car insurance UP 25% this year
My home insurance UP 20% this year
Health insurance UP
Petrol UP around 15c/litre since the start of the year
Car Tax UP
VAT went UP this year, On top of the taxes I pay already I'm now paying a health levy and an income levy. When my kids are in my ear for money I've noticed the things they want have NOT dropped in price. When I go for a hard earned (Very hard earned) pint maybe once a week I've noticed that has NOT dropped in price. My friends who smoke pay MORE this year (i'm not in the mood for anti-smoking bull****, the fact is the price has gone up so try telling someone addicted to nicotine he doesn't need to smoke:rolleyes:) I have noticed the price of food has dropped but I can assure you the overall cost of living has gone UP

stainluss wrote: »

Is it not only reasonable that they take a paycut?
I know if the cost of living went up they would be marching for more € lol

No It is Not reasonable to ask people to take a pay cut! Before the PS bashers and keyboard warriors hop on this with their usual 'Flies around ****e!' impression I am not PS. Oh No! Are you all disappointed now.?
...
I don't think any PAYE employee should take a paycut. End of! PAYE workers whether PS or private sector work hard, They pay their FULL dues and have no choice in the matter as taxes etc. are taken straight from their wages (unlike some of my self employed buddies who keep a little bit of their income to one side to pay for their gargles don't tell me it doesn't happen, I've spent years slaving on building sites watching it happen! ;) ) You all know this happens and if you argue against it you are just proving how out of touch you are!
If my multi millionaire boss came over and told me to take a pay cut as 'times were hard' after I've spent 20 years making the c*** rich I would rip his f***ing head off! Where the f*** do the internet warriors get off telling people they should take pay cuts and then like it:rolleyes::rolleyes:
These are people who by the sounds of some of them are self employed who have spent the last 20 years fleecing everyone and now things have gone pear shaped they expect the working man and his family to take the hit! Then their are posters who are quite obviously students who have never done a days graft in their lives and are getting a free 3rd level education at the expense of the people who are taking the hit for this recession. Unbelievable!:rolleyes:

miju

Drumpot wrote: »

The most frightening thing about these kind of debates is the lack of knowledge by so many posters . . .

I will try another approach as the most logical of debates turn into "I bet you wouldnt join the public service during celtic tiger years" or some sort of union rhetoric like that . .

. . . . . . . .

Me me me me me me me . .

Im the ONLY person in this recession . . I have taken more pain then anybody . .

Enough is enough . .

Why dont people feel sorry for me ? Sure all those in the private sector took their chances with their jobs and their pension. Dont throw job security and pension guarantee in my face, its all their own fault. But why dont they understand my pain ?

Feck those in the private sector. Despite the fact the majority are on a wage below 30k (that pittance figure thrown out by unions like its piss!), they all laughed at those in the public service during the boom years.

Despite the fact that there were (at any given times) up to 60,000 jobs available in all sectors, its only worth pointing out that EVERYBODY in the private sector turned down public service jobs (dont want to discuss the fact that there are only so many public service jobs).

Why do they keep going on about 450k unemployed. Sure there are 300 people laid off in the public service every month. Ok they are people who choose to leave service themselves, but none the less it shows how difficult it is for us . .

And one of those banks gave their employees a payrise. We all know that this represents the whole private sector . . they are all at it ! !

In summary . . I have sympathy for those who have lost their jobs or who are worried about losing them, but its nowhere near as upsetting as the potential to lose up to 15% of your wage in the space of a year ! they dont know what recession is ! !

ya see it's not about me, me, me attitude it's about sharing the pain EVENLY and FAIRLY which is not happening in the main. CSO reports on private sector pay very clearly showed up that a couple of weeks ago.

There are more job losses in the public sector than you think and not through "natural wastage" pretty much 100% of temporary contracts are not being renewed and these workers are haemmoraging from the public sector as well well as "natural" wastage staff but don't let that get in the way of your rant.

I think most public sector employees me included are in agreement that the public wage bill has to fall the question is how do you do it fairly and equitably as at the moment it's not been done fairly. Theres not even a big appetite for strikes in the public sector either and the unions know this which is why they used their March ballot to justify last weeks strike rather than ballot again. Even me on my meagre 26k wage is willing to take a further cut but other people are very clearly not taking their fair share of the pain.

omahaid

miju wrote: »

ya see it's not about me, me, me attitude it's about sharing the pain EVENLY and FAIRLY which is not happening in the main. CSO reports on private sector pay very clearly showed up that a couple of weeks ago.

There are more job losses in the public sector than you think and not through "natural wastage" pretty much 100% of temporary contracts are not being renewed and these workers are haemmoraging from the public sector as well well as "natural" wastage staff but don't let that get in the way of your rant.

How can it be a job loss if the people are on temporary contracts ? Surely they are temporary?

Jamie-b

There are more job losses in the public sector than you think and not through "natural wastage" pretty much 100% of temporary contracts are not being renewed and these workers are haemmoraging from the public sector

How can it be a job loss if the people are on temporary contracts ? Surely they are temporary?

Not really, I've been in my job over three years and due to the nature of fixed term contracts I'm out the window in a few months.
It annoys me when people talk about the job security we all have when in reality a sizable portion of the public sector don't have any

seangal

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think the idea won't run, especially in health and education, which are two of the biggest components of the public service.

It might be used in a few areas as a contribution to reducing public sector pay, but as a relatively small one.

I think it will not happen and the government will just go with the pay cut
They were talking about the pension levy the same way and then at 4am they imposed it
If it did go ahead I believe it will not save the 850 million as a lot of public sector were all ready taking unpaid parental leave and they will stop taking this and take the unpaid leave