What about forcing all government meetings to be held in public?

hatrickpatrick

No cabinet decisions to be made behind closed doors, all minutes to be made public, etc etc etc = no more shenanigans or deception by the government? Thoughts?

Biggins

When it comes to state security, they would have to operate behind close doors at least some of the time.

RedPlanet

Dunno, yes i suppose in the interests of accountability and transparency. But i think there should be (free) Freedom of Information Requests to acquire the minutes of those meetings at least.

hatrickpatrick

Biggins wrote: »

When it comes to state security, they would have to operate behind close doors at least some of the time.

That makes sense in the same way that keeping court proceedings and identities behind closed doors until a verdict has been announced in order to protect reputations and avoid biasing the jury does. But I also believe that there should be a definite limit to this, to avoid for example allowing rendition flights to be covered up. The public has a right to know about such things. The specifics of security policy would have to be kept under wraps for obvious reasons.

Hellm0

Biggins wrote: »

When it comes to state security, they would have to operate behind close doors at least some of the time.

Why, may I ask? In the case of larger countries with standing armies, security related secrecy has proven itself a useful cloak for the corrupt and the downright evil. Dick Cheney's roaming band of blackwater kidnappers should be proof enough of that.

Dr Galen

how about we just elect people that we know we can trust to do things right and with a bit of integrity?

Hellm0

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

how about we just elect people that we know we can trust to do things right and with a bit of integrity?

A trustworthy, responsible politician with integrity? Good luck. Mayor Bloomberg just spent $102 million dollars to get elected here in the states. I don't care how honest you are, how rational or upstanding, if you can't afford to run you won't get elected in most situations.

Scofflaw

Interesting in theory, but it means that Cabinet meetings would then be dominated by the same electoral grandstanding that characterises the Dáil, while the real discussions took place somewhere else.

cordially,
Scofflaw

bmaxi

What makes you think that a populace, which hasn't even the fortitude to insist on high standards in public office, could force any government to do anything?

Biggins

Hellm0 wrote: »

Why, may I ask? In the case of larger countries with standing armies, security related secrecy has proven itself a useful cloak for the corrupt and the downright evil. Dick Cheney's roaming band of blackwater kidnappers should be proof enough of that.

Supposing an organisation was discussing how to find the evidence they need to bring someone to court or how to get the information to capture someone!
* "O' yes, lets put it on public record what exactly we are going to be looking for in order to catch him (the culprit could then ensure to cover his tracks/methods more?)".
* Lets announce to the world who undercover is telling us the vital information we use to stop bombings or killings of real innocent people!"
(Would you care to guess of the sudden death toll numbers of undercover agents and informers? I couldn't begin to imagine...)

..and thats just two simple examples. You want everything exposed? Madness!!!

Security secrecy SOMETIMES has proven itself BY SOME a useful cloak for the corrupt and the downright evil - but lets not rush to tar all with the one brush.

Hellm0

Biggins wrote: »

Supposing an organisation was discussing how to find the evidence they need to bring someone to court or how to get the information to capture someone!
* "O' yes, lets put it on public record what exactly we are going to be looking for in order to catch him (the culprit could then ensure to cover his tracks/methods more?)".
* Lets announce to the world who undercover is telling us the vital information we use to stop bombings or killings of real innocent people!"
(Would you care to guess of the sudden death toll numbers of undercover agents and informers? I couldn't begin to imagine...)

..and thats just two simple examples. You want everything exposed? Madness!!!

Security secrecy SOMETIMES has proven itself BY SOME a useful cloak for the corrupt and the downright evil - but lets not rush to tar all with the one brush.

That depends on whether you believe them when they say there are people trying to bomb us. If you cannot trust a government to go to war for REAL reasons (IE weapons of mass destruction), how can you trust them on anything? Without transparency, that is what we end up with.

Biggins

Hellm0 wrote: »

That depends on whether you believe them when they say there are people trying to bomb us. If you cannot trust a government to go to war for REAL reasons (IE weapons of mass destruction), how can you trust them on anything? Without transparency, that is what we end up with.

I've been pushing for more transparency for years but even this old fogie has to acknowledge that sometimes there has to be a balance struck.
If we like it or not, some state procedures have to operate sometimes "in the dark".
We might not agree with it nor trust those that oversee's them - at times all we can do is hope for the best that they are not all possessed of an evil and/or greedy streak.

dan719

Hellm0 wrote: »

That depends on whether you believe them when they say there are people trying to bomb us. If you cannot trust a government to go to war for REAL reasons (IE weapons of mass destruction), how can you trust them on anything? Without transparency, that is what we end up with.

Eh are we not talking about the irish government? Anyway, in terms of the states, the terrorist attacks on 9/11 are pretty good evidence people wish to attack the country. :rolleyes:

Hellm0

dan719 wrote: »

Eh are we not talking about the irish government?

I was referring to the US government, if only to highlight the topic. There are however plenty of examples of Irish governmental corruption and secrecy, as you should be aware.

dan719 wrote: »

Anyway, in terms of the states, the terrorist attacks on 9/11 are pretty good evidence people wish to attack the country. :rolleyes:

I am sure the German people saw the Gleiwitz incident in much the same light.

Dannyboy83

I would like them to give up Irish sovereignty and hand the controls over to Europe. We could be a project state, so they'd be sure to do a good job.
I don't see how they could do a worse job than what we've got over the last 12 years, and they are the only thing keeping this country afloat right now anyway.

Who knows?
With a bit of infrastructure, a few flood barriers, criminal prosecution of paedophiles, the ability to buy a house on an average wage and domestic investment, maybe we wouldn't need that 12.5% corpo tax rate after all.

dan719

Hellm0 wrote: »

I was referring to the US government, if only to highlight the topic. There are however plenty of examples of Irish governmental corruption and secrecy, as you should be aware.



I am sure the German people saw the Gleiwitz incident in much the same light.

So the 9/11 attacks were staged by the US government? :rolleyes:

Every government has engaged in secrecy and corruption, but that doesn't mean it isn't sometimes necessary (secrecy that is and hell maybe even corruption), especially in the area of national security.

Hellm0

dan719 wrote: »

So the 9/11 attacks were staged by the US government? :rolleyes:

I can't say, much of the intelligence related to that event is still inaccessible to the public. What I can say however is that the thousands of civilian victims of the Afghan and Iraqi genocides had less to do with 9/11 than the united states government did.

dan719 wrote: »

Every government has engaged in secrecy and corruption, but that doesn't mean it isn't sometimes necessary (secrecy that is and hell maybe even corruption), especially in the area of national security.

What a wonderfully democratic outlook. I can imagine it now...somewhere in the third world, a real life Jack Bauer is saving us all from shadowy terrorists by water boarding and electrocuting some local peasants, all in our name but at the orders of a benevolent rich white guy back in Washington.

SeanW

Hellm0 wrote: »

I am sure the German people saw the Gleiwitz incident in much the same light.

So all of the terrorist atrocities that have been perpetrated against the peoples of the world by the Islamists, have all REALLY been false flag operations by national governments ...

that's good to know. I assume you have evidence to back this up?

Hellm0

SeanW wrote: »

So all of the terrorist atrocities that have been perpetrated against the peoples of the world by the Islamists, have all REALLY been false flag operations by national governments ...

that's good to know. I assume you have evidence to back this up?

I do not remember making any claims to that effect.

My main point however is that without full disclosure and open government, how can we ever know? With technology today we have the ability to establish true, open democracy. So long as government has the ability to make information disappear, to lie and to get away with it, what does it matter? Every terrorist attack, every war, every health care debate, every economic crisis. It's all accepted on faith.

dan719

Hellm0 wrote: »

What a wonderfully democratic outlook. I can imagine it now...somewhere in the third world, a real life Jack Bauer is saving us all from shadowy terrorists by water boarding and electrocuting some local peasants, all in our name but at the orders of a benevolent rich white guy back in Washington.

Jack Bauer? Scoff, James Bond is WAAAAAY cooler. Let's have an example of advantages of corruption/secrecy benefitting a society. Using a completely illegal and unknown to the public slush fund the US buys off Iranian scientists involved in the development of the nuclear programme. They know exactly what stage it is at, whether or not it is viable, and can act accordingly. There are a million more such examples.

Hellm0

dan719 wrote: »

Jack Bauer? Scoff, James Bond is WAAAAAY cooler. Let's have an example of advantages of corruption/secrecy benefitting a society. Using a completely illegal and unknown to the public slush fund the US buys off Iranian scientists involved in the development of the nuclear programme. They know exactly what stage it is at, whether or not it is viable, and can act accordingly. There are a million more such examples.

I wonder where they got the money in this slush fund? I also like how they support good science! Lets never forget though, the ends justify the means (more means)

dan719

Hellm0 wrote: »

I wonder where they got the money in this slush fund? I also like how they support good science! Lets never forget though, the ends justify the means (more means)

So what. Honestly, why should I care? America does things that are unpalatable. The UK does things that are unpalatable. The Japanese do things that many people dislike too. Major countries often don't play by the 'rules'. Simply because they make the rules.

At the end of the day I'd rather live in the west than some sh*thole elsewhere on the planet, and if that means not knowing everything that the government gets up to, especially since that secrecy is usually for my safety from lunatic terrorist groups, then so be it.

starbelgrade

Oireachtas Report would have to be extended to 2 hours. If that's not a good enough argument against it...

SeanW

Hellm0 wrote: »

So long as government has the ability to make information disappear, to lie and to get away with it, what does it matter? Every terrorist attack, every war, every health care debate, every economic crisis. It's all accepted on faith.

Yes, all of these are potential problems. But if there's a team of people trying to intercept terror attacks and in particular spy double agents trying to infiltrate terrorist groups, don't you think it's a good idea to protect their identity?

starbelgrade

SeanW wrote: »

Yes, all of these are potential problems. But if there's a team of people trying to intercept terror attacks and in particular spy double agents trying to infiltrate terrorist groups, don't you think it's a good idea to protect their identity?

Are we still talking about the Irish government?

Hellm0

SeanW wrote: »

Yes, all of these are potential problems. But if there's a team of people trying to intercept terror attacks and in particular spy double agents trying to infiltrate terrorist groups, don't you think it's a good idea to protect their identity?

Seeing as terror groups would have no support base were there no double agents, spies and unfair economic/geo-political practices, I see no justification for their existence nor the protection of their identities in a society where everyone is equally informed. Would 9/11 have happened if the US never funded the Taliban? Would the middle east be a more stable region if the united states stopped funding and supporting Israels apartheid regime? Would Iran still despise the US if the CIA hadn't helped the Shah?

Scofflaw

If this thread turns into a discussion of conspiracy theories, then it has a natural home elsewhere.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Hellm0

Scofflaw wrote: »

If this thread turns into a discussion of conspiracy theories, then it has a natural home elsewhere.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Lizard people have no place in politics, and certainly none in open government.