December Budget 09 details

Flamed Diving

If you want social justice from this recent crisis, which generation do you think should get hit?

1) The OAP's who worked their whole lives, shrewdly saved and never over-reached with bank loans?

2) Or the generation who amassed the largest private debt-to-gdp ratio in the world? Who never saved, and took out loans they could never afford, to buy things they never needed and to own "portfolios" of property they didn't even work for? Feck it, the very generation who created the mess?

And you want to hit column 1? When they did nothing to cause this crisis?

Get lost.

amacachi

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If pensioners are NOT in debt, then there's a damn good reason for it: they haven't been greedy and they have been wise with their money. Why should they pay for some greedy ****wit's mistakes?

By that logic why should I pay for their healthcare?

The only debt I have is from paying college fees. Collective responsibility and consequences is a feature of living in an organised state.

Duiske

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Much more lenient than I expected tbh.
As of tomorrow, we owe 75 Bill

More lenient ? What exactly did you want ? The Government want 4 Billion in cuts, and thats what they are going to get. Did you want more cuts ?

Don't forget. They are going to have to do the same next year, and the year after.

maryjane007

lads the pensioners arent a problem .if the social welfare got out and caught the ones who have made a fortune out of the state. the 'supposedly' lone parents. i know people who used it save for their weddings, the amount of peope claiming lone parents, doing ce schemes and have a fella living with them whos working is an absolute disgrace to this country.

Dr Galen

while i agree that there appears, even anecdotally, to be quite a bit of welfare fraud going on, it's not going to fix the issue at hand. Even if we had zero welfare fraud going on, we'd save very little out of the total welfare bill and big cuts would still need to be made

maryjane007

i know but its a start. a lone parent with 2 children would get roughly 250 a week and back to school of just over 800 a year, take away their medical card and should be at least 15 grand a year saved for one family and i can think of 3 people out of the 20 houses on my road who are illegaly claiming it so i can imagine what the figures are like nationwide.

heavyballs

maryjane007 wrote: »

lads the pensioners arent a problem .if the social welfare got out and caught the ones who have made a fortune out of the state. the 'supposedly' lone parents. i know people who used it save for their weddings, the amount of peope claiming lone parents, doing ce schemes and have a fella living with them whos working is an absolute disgrace to this country.

totally agree with ya,i have a 'lone parent' 2 doors down in a new estate, i bought my house 2 years ago ,needless to say i have a huge mortgage but that' was my choice so i'm not giving out,however,the sight of her bf's souped up Impreza outside the house makes me sick,where do i report this?

Dr Galen

well all i can say is that if you know of such fraud going on, then report it. I'd imagine the dept would be very interested in it.

Maryjane, i don't disagree with your thoughts. Welfare fraud needs to reported and tackled. Its a drop in the ocean though in the scheme of things, more moeny needs to be found.

amacachi

heavyballs wrote: »

totally agree with ya,i have a 'lone parent' 2 doors down in a new estate, i bought my house 2 years ago ,needless to say i have a huge mortgage but that' was my choice so i'm not giving out,however,the sight of her bf's souped up Impreza outside the house makes me sick,where do i report this?

Fairly sure that's fine once he's not claiming the dole. It's a daft system which they're meant to be getting rid of.
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2009/Pages/pr210109.aspx has info at the bottom for reporting suspect claims.

maryjane007

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

Maryjane, i don't disagree with your thoughts. Welfare fraud needs to reported and tackled. Its a drop in the ocean though in the scheme of things, more moeny needs to be found.

yeah true, anyway my point was why try take a few bob off pensioners when you can take it off these crooks.

amacachi

maryjane007 wrote: »

yeah true, anyway my point was why try take a few bob off pensioners when you can take it off these crooks.

Both should be done, trouble is that investigating isn't all that easy, and a lot of people still won't report it.

old boy

thatsa spicy wrote: »

People having emotional attacks at people who even suggest a cut in the living standards of those on the OAP should get real. Do they expect that we should leave them alone and even further increase the tax burden on everybody else?

Nobody is going to starve...they just won't be able to put money away for inheritences. And yes, really, nobody is going to starve. On 232 a week? They should have their mortgage paid off by now and bills for one or two people don't come to that much.

pensioners spend more on heating than young people, every job requiring doing has to be paid for, most young people can diy. quite a few pensioners do not recieve 232 pw, i recieve 204 for instance, their houses are older, colder, costs more to maintain, every little thing has to be paid for, also please remember people of our generation have very little saved, because if you look back on wages they were never that high in our working life, we had unreal tax rates, unbelivable interest rates, if we have anything it is towards our funerals, that is the way we were reared and trained, and for quite a long time in our lives just existed.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

amacachi wrote: »

By that logic why should I pay for their healthcare?

The only debt I have is from paying college fees. Collective responsibility and consequences is a feature of living in an organised state.

Are you a bank manager or a Fianna Fail politician? "Collective responsibility" my arse!

The_Honeybadger

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If pensioners are NOT in debt, then there's a damn good reason for it: they haven't been greedy and they have been wise with their money. Why should they pay for some greedy ****wit's mistakes?

Fair play to you agree 100%

Dannyboy83

Duiske wrote: »

More lenient ? What exactly did you want ? The Government want 4 Billion in cuts, and thats what they are going to get. Did you want more cuts ?

Don't forget. They are going to have to do the same next year, and the year after.

Thats precisely my point.
Think of it in basic cumulative terms.

For every 1 billion they don't save now, that they must continue to borrow, thats ((1billion) + (risk*interest)).

The McCarthy report recommended in the range of €5.3 billion.
There seems to have been little point in commissioning the report.

Also, they reducing Capital spending by 1 billion..........in a recession......

We are supposed to be having pain.
Most of the supposed pain here will probably be offset by deflation.
Yet out debt spirals into ever more insane territory.

I can't help but get the feeling that this is tied into NAMA.
More deflation = more losses against the NAMA balance sheet.

jackofalltrades

Flamed Diving wrote:

If you want social justice from this recent crisis, which generation do you think should get hit?

1) The OAP's who worked their whole lives, shrewdly saved and never over-reached with bank loans?

2) Or the generation who amassed the largest private debt-to-gdp ratio in the world? Who never saved, and took out loans they could never afford, to buy things they never needed and to own "portfolios" of property they didn't even work for? Feck it, the very generation who created the mess?

And you want to hit column 1? When they did nothing to cause this crisis?

The spending splurge of the second group, created the temporary tax revenue that was used to increase the pension of the first group.

Now that the temporary spending has stopped that the unsustainable spending has to stop too.

Its not about justice or who's fault it is, the money just isn't there anymore.

Social welfare cuts should be should be applied across the board to make them fair. No group should be untouchable, just beacuse they vote in large numbers.

LaLucy

Jesus will everyone calm down. I definitely agree OAP's should be left alone for the love of god I was so glad to see that. People are very ignorant of the elderly. You know there are actually old people who smoke so have to feed that habit every week? They have been smoking so long they can't give up now. Leave them out of it I say. They have the right to just relax for the rest of their lives and have a warm home and the basic necessities. I do think they should crack down on one parent allowance fraud because I know plenty of people who have been doing that for years and it is sort of annoying. On top of this they over indulge on fast foods and unhealthy living which is not good for any kid. I think you should have the right to the dole and the right to live in your own place meeting basic needs but you should not pretend to be single parent when you're not

DO'Carlo/Wex

Re: Welfare Fraud:
A Prime Time Investigates Special will air this Monday 7th December @ 21.35 on RTE One.

There are different types of fraud from the Lone Parents being claimed for when in reality the LP is co-habiting to JB or JA whilst working in the Black Economy to claiming while living abroad (I.E., Flying back in Once a Month to Sign On whilst each week getting paid electronically) etc.
You'd want to be fair sure the person you're assuming & accusing of committing fraud actually is.
You could end-up with egg on your' face even if it is anonymous & if you're genuinely wrong, guilt.
I know of at least one person who's a Social Welfare Tourist on JA since April 2008 & flying in & out since August 2008 iirc but as issue is too close to home (he Irish btw not foreign as the red-tops were losing the rag over last year iirc) I'm in a Catch 22 Situation regarding reporting.
If it were anybody else I'd be e-mailing Central.Control@Welfare.ie

I'm on JB myself since February 2009 & last day I signed on I was given a form to bring back in Janyury for transfering over to JA as my year is up Febyuary 11th 2010.
Now when I was working, I saved like a Billy Goat & when I were laid-off, I still did because I moved home (at 31!) so didn't have overhead of rent.
I've amassed a considerable sum but feel I'll be effectively punished for having good-sense to save for rainy day.
I think there is a threshold below which you're SW Payment Amount won't be touched/altered but I'd imagine I'm above that by 15K Approx. (my GUESS is threshold is E20K but I'm very new to SW so could be wrong!) between Bank & CU Account.
Any sudgestions?
I have to be honest when I fill out form & declare all my accounts.

I fully expect the 5% sudgested in OPs TV3 Report to mean as of December 9th my JB will be E194.30 if my Math is right?

I'd also be suprised if Rent Allowance Contribution (& thresholds around the country) aren't reduced by State & increased for Tenant.
For E.G.
In S.E.Ireland a One Bed Apartament is paid out on up to E108/Week or E468/Month.
State Pays E84 & Tenant E24.
I expect the State Threshold to be reduced possibly by E3 to E105 or maybe by E8 to E100.
I expect State Contribution to be reduced by E4 to E80 & Tenant Contribution to be INCREASED by E6 to E30.

That could be a double-whammy for people & indeed as I'm isolated in a fairly rural parish was thinking of moving out again to give myself a better chance of training & employment.
Now, I'm having 2d thoughts & definitely won't be doing anything this side of 2010 I'd say.
Possibly even wait til JA situation is dealt with.

green123

carlo,

here is a link to how the means test works :

http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcontent/en/irish-social-welfare-system/means-test-for-social-welfare-payments/means-test-for-jobseekers-allowance/



Capital Weekly means assessed
First €20,000 Nil
Next €10,000 €1 per €1,000
Next €10,000 €2 per €1,000
Balance (€40,000 ) €4 per €1,000


For example

If you have €55,000 savings:

The first €20,000 is assessed as nil, €20,000 to €30,000 is assessed as €10, €30,000 to €40,000 is assessed as €20, €40,000 and €55,000 is assessed as €60.

€10 €20 €60 = €90

Savings of €55,000 gives a means of €90 per week.

so your payment in this case is reduced by €90 per week

gurramok

Yeh, the prudent are penalised for been prudent. Carlo, you should of spent or hid your money via cash under the mattress or something to get what you were entitled to.

If you recklessly spent your savings on lets say a state of the art BMW or got a huge mortgage, you'd get full welfare entitlements.

Rockshamrover

We could save a small fortune on pensions by ensuring that TDs and ministers only take up their pensions at 65. Also that they can only take up one pension and not combined pensions.

Nody

amacachi wrote: »

People on the dole with kids will get extra from the dole to make up for the loss in children's allowance. That's the impression I'm getting anyway.

Because people did not put into practice to live on dole and have children; no sir never happened at all!

When will a government with some brains/balls come in and say; anyone on dole for more then say 5 years lose 50% of all benefits or similar to actully go after the long term dole users?

Dickerty

Nody wrote: »

When will a government with some brains/balls come in and say; anyone on dole for more then say 5 years lose 50% of all benefits or similar to actully go after the long term dole users?

And what is that person is long term unemployed because they are unskilled, maybe problems with the basics (reading, maths), and there are not enough courses to get them into a suitable job?

You cannot tar eneryone with the same brush. The people in the dole offices need to make that call - if you are not attempting to get work, then you lose.

Also, there should be a benefit limit for EVERYONE. If you are long term sick and with kids and unmarried, chances are you are getting a house and about 2 grand a month, on top of the free house. That is FAR more than is needed for their circumstances. Give them fuel allowance and similar, but not the cash.

mathie

irish_bob wrote: »

you must live in the city , any old person i know saves like a squirrell , old people tend to be very stingy with money

And therein lies the rub.

You see old people as stingy.
Well maybe being stingy equals saving.

Young people are the total opposite right?
They spend all their money.

Do you have any idea what got us into this mess?

Clue : Spending money we did not have in the first place and not saving for a rainy day.

DO'Carlo/Wex

green123 wrote: »

carlo,

here is a link to how the means test works :

http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcontent/en/irish-social-welfare-system/means-test-for-social-welfare-payments/means-test-for-jobseekers-allowance/



Capital Weekly means assessed
First €20,000 Nil
Next €10,000 €1 per €1,000
Next €10,000 €2 per €1,000
Balance (€40,000 ) €4 per €1,000


For example

If you have €55,000 savings:

The first €20,000 is assessed as nil, €20,000 to €30,000 is assessed as €10, €30,000 to €40,000 is assessed as €20, €40,000 and €55,000 is assessed as €60.

€10 €20 €60 = €90

Savings of €55,000 gives a means of €90 per week.

so your payment in this case is reduced by €90 per week

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Genuinely thinking of transferring the excess out of my account bit by bit between now & January or February to get it down to E20K.
Offshore, under the mattress, into a Daz Washing Powder Box, burying it in a Biscuit Tin down the garden or under a tree. Anywhere!
Put it back in once my claim is finalised in Febuary/March.
Flipped if I'm to suffer for doing what the whole country should've been doing over the years.
Lived within my means.
Any cash-work I did (security for work, being on-call, locking up etc. which was extra to my through the books ordinary work day-job) was lodged at end of each year when brown envelope came around.
Set up DDs of £25/Week to Start-Off with & Upped it to E50.Something when Euro came in in 2002 & I started coining it in with O-T etc.
Form (Application for JA Means Test) Up 1-B is to be given in on my next day in January but my actual 12 Month isn't up until February 11th.

Currently going on above calculations, my payment will be E194.08 (That's in turn, based on Ursula Halligans' prediction of a 5% Cut from E204.30)Less E90 = E104.08! :mad::eek:

That'd put a stop to saving on a weekly-basis that's for sure.
Plus I'd be back relying on the State for Healthcare in Hospitals should I get sick as stuck with the VHI @ E18/Week in case ever have to be admitted to hospital. Another daft idea possibly on my part?

Ursula Halligan also suggests on Ireland AM Today that JB/JA for U-23s' (commonly assumed to be living at home & therefore to be getting given free B&B with Washing done etc.!) will be cut down by 20%.
So reducing E204.30 by 20% leaves you with E163.44.

Imagine if I was ALSO U-23? Living on E73.44 a Week!:eek:

I have NO problem taking a "pay-cut" in the Budget of the predicted 5% but that coupled with a E90 Reduction would demoralise, demotivate (to a certain extent although I'd redouble my efforts to get a job) & effectively cripple me.

I moved home when I was laid-off but am anxious due to my isolation to move back into an urban area where employment & access to courses would be easier to access.
Should this transpire, Rent Allowance would be sought.
Will this alter the issue?
Could I appeal if this doesn't transpire until after my JA has been decided?

Back On Topic, do ye expect Packs of 20 to incur more tax as part of a revenue generator as well as a disincentive to smoke (especially amongst the young)?
What about duty on Spirits, Beer, Cider, Lager etc.?
Personally I think gargle will remain the same as VFI Lobby are particularly voiciferous & with rural pubs remaining shut until 5, 6 or 7 during the week, the smoking ban, reduction in drink-driving limit on its' way, I don't think Govt.'d touch an increase with a bargepole.

ixoy

gurramok wrote: »

Yeh, the prudent are penalised for been prudent. Carlo, you should of spent or hid your money via cash under the mattress or something to get what you were entitled to.

If you recklessly spent your savings on lets say a state of the art BMW or got a huge mortgage, you'd get full welfare entitlements.

Yep, that bit galls me. I've been saving away with a view to - when it makes sense - getting a mortgage.

If I were to lose my job, I'd be expected to live off my savings because I was cautious. If I spent it all before then, I'd expect to get to live off other people's savings because I wasn't cautious. Something ain't right there.

JP Liz

child benefit should be means tested

crossmolinalad

green123 wrote: »

carlo,

here is a link to how the means test works :

http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcontent/en/irish-social-welfare-system/means-test-for-social-welfare-payments/means-test-for-jobseekers-allowance/



Capital Weekly means assessed
First €20,000 Nil
Next €10,000 €1 per €1,000
Next €10,000 €2 per €1,000
Balance (€40,000 ) €4 per €1,000


For example

If you have €55,000 savings:

The first €20,000 is assessed as nil, €20,000 to €30,000 is assessed as €10, €30,000 to €40,000 is assessed as €20, €40,000 and €55,000 is assessed as €60.

€10 €20 €60 = €90

Savings of €55,000 gives a means of €90 per week.

so your payment in this case is reduced by €90 per week

they have to do the same as in holland.
if u have savings of a 50.000 u have to eat it down to a max of 15;000 before u get a jsa
i thought that if u have a house on your name you have to sell it to before u get any jsa overthere

its complete stupid if u have so much savings that u get any benefits from the state

gurramok

crossmolinalad wrote: »

they have to do the same as in holland.
if u have savings of a 50.000 u have to eat it down to a max of 15;000 before u get a jsa
i thought that if u have a house on your name you have to sell it to before u get any jsa overthere

its complete stupid if u have so much savings that u get any benefits from the state

You see, most young people who did save and were prudent have those savings for a deposit on their first home. When they buy a home, they'll have feck all savings.

Carlo, you have the jist of what to do regarding your own cash! No trace is the prudent way.

You need to be living outside your parents house for a minimum of 6 mths to qualify for RA and the same means test is applied to this as to JA.

On booze, it has the highest excise and probably taxes in the EU so hiking it is an own goal due to the downturn in drinking and after all, thank god for that border

Qs

murphaph wrote: »

Why are they more vulnerable?

My mother sticks her pension in the bank. She still works fulltime yet receives this 204 quid a week and does nothing with it. She can't be alone.

Shes not alone, my grandfather works and claims his pension too. The thing is he had to go back to work because his and my Grandmothers pensions weren't enough to live on.

The pension should be means tested though. I know plenty of very wealthy people who don't need it and wouldn't complain if they didn't have it.