The "worst of all possible worlds": The deal between Government and the unions

BlackNinja

Trankton wrote: »

I agree completely, how is it fair that those on 20k take the same cut as those on 60 - 100k. Ridiculous. It would appear that the unions have also made fools of their members as they only appear to be looking after those on the top rungs of the ladder.

If I was a member of the public service I would be quitting my union with immediate effect.

A lot of people where i am are wondering the same thing and if the reduction through extra leave is implemented withour tiering then the union fee every pay day will be money many will want back in their paycheck

gazzer

GSF wrote: »

Will this unpaid leave be on top of the 15 days paid sick leave?

15 days paid sick leave?? What are you on about. I work in the CS and I have taken one sick day this year.

ceret

gazzer wrote: »

15 days paid sick leave?? What are you on about. I work in the CS and I have taken one sick day this year.

The average public sector worker takes 11 days sick leave per year. Female public sector workers take on average 14 days per year. It's approximatly twice the private sector average.

Comptroller & Auditor General's Report -
Irish Times - Irish Independent

conorhal

With all that leave undoubtedly placing a strain on services, what is likely to happen is that public sector workers 'on leave' will be draughted on to address the shortfall, and get paid overtime for doing so, thus negating any likely benefit of this 'unpaid leave'.

This deal feels like the government kicking the ball to touch and leaving the mess for the next crowd to make all the hard (or actual) decisions.

Come the general election after next, no doubt FF will be sliming around the doorsteps of public sector employees saying "sure it wasn't us that cut yer pay now was it?"

Pathetic.

diverdriver

Well Cowen on the one o'clock news says no agreement has been reached. So it's still all to play for. The unions haven't won anything yet.

One quote from Cowen: 'The government doesn't have the money to pay the public service pay bill'

dan_d

We're all screwed. And chances of the cost of living dropping for the rest of us who actually HAD to take paycuts is now slim. So we all have to suffer on while nothing changes in the public service.

Btw did anybody else read this article in the Irish times yesterday? If the statistics in here are true, I'm speechless. Those numbers are a total disgrace, and only goes to reinforce my belief that members of our public services are being paid far more money than they'll ever need and also that it is totally overburdened with unecessary administration and management.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/1201/1224259785496.html

The sooner I can get out of this hell hole the better.

P. Breathnach

Maybe it's not going to happen. Brian Cowen seems now to be distancing himself from the idea that this is an agreed line (lunchtime news on RTE).

Edit: beaten to the punch by diverdriver!

Trankton

diverdriver wrote: »

Well Cowen on the one o'clock news says no agreement has been reached. So it's still all to play for. The unions haven't won anything yet.

One quote from Cowen: 'The government doesn't have the money to pay the public service pay bill'

Sweet lets just takes Cowens word for it, him being so honest and trustworthy and all....lol.

Idbatterim

Cowen was recently saying all this pessimism is only harming us! but the result of the pessimism now is the reality that those in Government are absolutely useless and cant govern and nothing will turn around until decisions and actions are taken! How can I be optimistic? all expenditure now was boom based, we all know that boom isnt coming back and either is the fairytale notion that Ireland is different! We are absolutely fu**ed! Whats being propsed is exactly the opposite of what is needed! I cant believe some in the PS only work 35 hour weeks and try to keep on getting more pay for less work! I dont believe any government here will ever sort out the mess of the PS and I dearly hope that someone slams on the brakes in relation to bailing us out for €500,000,000 every week and says enough is enough! We are not capable of getting anything right here ourselves! Its pathetic but we need outsiders to do it for us!

gazzer

ceret wrote: »

The average public sector worker takes 11 days sick leave per year. Female public sector workers take on average 14 days per year. It's approximatly twice the private sector average.

Comptroller & Auditor General's Report -
Irish Times - Irish Independent

Well I must be working in a totally different civil service. Where I work, apart from 2 people out on long term sick leave (out of an office of 50) there have been very few people out on sick leave here this year. Including me I would say about 10 people have taken a days sick leave this year with 3 of them taking 2 days.

Long Onion

Trampas wrote: »

I heard the school are going to remain open and the unpaid leave will happen during the summer.

Therefore I think the teachers are getting the short straw.

They are getting a pay cut since they don't have any extra days off.

Incorrect - the schools are staying open and the teachers will be forced to take unpaid leave but they will get these days off during term time over the next few years - this is the biggest joke of a proposal i have ever come across.

I am disgusted that the government have even considered this, if they can do without the entire sector for 3 weeks, why can't they just reduce the headcount?

NoSummer

Brian, I am appalled at the news coming in that you are giving Civil Service unpaid leave. Are you insane? This is a ridiculous deal that will leave this country the laughing stock of Europe. Please make the hard decisions and implement a pay cut which is what is needed. We are all hurting lets get this country back on its feet again. Make the hard decisions now so at least the future will be brighter. If you mess this up now all we can look forward to now is unrest and another budget where you will have to make more cuts.
So

P. Breathnach

Long Onion wrote: »

Incorrect - the schools are staying open and the teachers will be forced to take unpaid leave but they will get these days off during term time over the next few years - this is the biggest joke of a proposal i have ever come across.

I think that line of discussion has degenerated into silliness. It's not going to happen that way.

I am disgusted that the government have even considered this, if they can do without the entire sector for 3 weeks, why can't they just reduce the headcount?

Of course they can reduce the head count. And then people will complain about things not being done because there are not enough people to do it. People might think they don't want public servants, but they do want public services.

Riskymove

gazzer wrote: »

Well I must be working in a totally different civil service. Where I work, apart from 2 people out on long term sick leave (out of an office of 50) there have been very few people out on sick leave here this year. Including me I would say about 10 people have taken a days sick leave this year with 3 of them taking 2 days.

Don't worry about it gazzer, no matter how much its discussed, many people just frame "averages" to suit their own mindsets

the same statistical information satated that 41% of civil servants did not take any sick leave ans another chunk only took 3 or less

the average is obviously affected by long-term absentees on chronic illnesses

The_Honeybadger

dan_d wrote: »

We're all screwed. And chances of the cost of living dropping for the rest of us who actually HAD to take paycuts is now slim. So we all have to suffer on while nothing changes in the public service.

Btw did anybody else read this article in the Irish times yesterday? If the statistics in here are true, I'm speechless. Those numbers are a total disgrace, and only goes to reinforce my belief that members of our public services are being paid far more money than they'll ever need and also that it is totally overburdened with unecessary administration and management.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/1201/1224259785496.html

The sooner I can get out of this hell hole the better.

If these figures are correct then they are truly outrageous. I have long suspected that the health service workers are not as "stretched to the limit" as they claim but had no idea things were so out of control.

97i9y3941

looks like the unions are running the country...

GER12

This whole deal if true is unreal. The budget is next week - how is Lenihan going to square up the cuts that are necessary in the public sector pay bill? Unions will have to go to their members to get agreement - so when is that going to happen? What if public sector workers dont agree - what will the minister for finance do - a homer simpson job - duh! I suspect we may have a mini budget in 2010?

Now to the proposed 12-14 days unpaid leave. How exactly do these idiots think this is going to work? Are people really living in the land of reality if they think that taking these days off - grant it without pay - is not going to impact on delivery of public services?

The unions and Cowen and co are saying public servants can carry over their leave up to 2013 - are they saying that the unpaid leave and by inference the cut in the public sector pay bill wont apply to 2011 and so on?

Maybe, govt and unions need to start thinking of reality. We are borrowing 400 each week - to cover current expenditure. The country is broke - bankrupt! This doesnt even take account of how markets are going to view this idiotic deal! Is it any wonder the country is in the mess it is - when you have public servants negotiating these kind of deals - and government continuing to pander to unions rather than govern. They are still negotiating public sector reform - I thought reform was suppose to be part of benchmarking. Or is that just another thing that wasnt delivered.

Maybe, another thing that needs to be "negotiated" as part of budget proposals is "sick leave". Lets start paying public servants ONLY the minimum social welfare rates when they go on any certified sick leave. That level of income would definately cut the pay bill - like in the state lab where 67% of staff have taken sick leave!

The IMF will be in before long - and the harsh reality check will be borne by all public and private!

woodseb

Riskymove wrote: »

Don't worry about it gazzer, no matter how much its discussed, many people just frame "averages" to suit their own mindsets

the same statistical information satated that 41% of civil servants did not take any sick leave ans another chunk only took 3 or less

and gazzer is also framing his mindset on his representative sample of 50 people....

jetfiremuck

Lads time for a government change asap.

Riskymove

woodseb wrote: »

and gazzer is also framing his mindset on his representative sample of 50 people....

actually he is responding to a suggestion that this unpaid leave will be "on top of their 15 days paid sick leave"

noone says that there are not public servants out on sick leave but to suggest that we all have some sort of set amount each year is rubbish

Big Vern

Hi,
I work in the PS and think this deal is a complete joke..im at the lower level of the PS and this 12 days off will be about a 5% cut of my yearly pay...this will be the same cut for the higher paid manager etc...they get away with it yet again...(TD's will get away with having to take a pay cut, they should be cut by about 25%). Im sure with the Guards, Nurses etc this will be completely un-workable and later in the year they will just end up working the days and no savings will be made....services will be affected..
Ive been a union member/supporter for years, but I feel ive been sold out by them, just to look after people at a higher level making good money. Will prob leave my union...

People in the PS need to wake up and realise how much this country is in trouble..I was prepared to take a 2/3% pay reduction, higher percentages for the higher paid...as the numbers in the PS are reduced due to retirements etc this could be reviewed, im talking over a few years here....im also in favour of reforms in the PS, (bank time in this day n age is a complete joke n should be gone straight away) Sick leave also needs to be reviewed...and a complete review of what work people are actually doing, so staff can be placed where they are needed most...

Maybe im too honest to be working in the PS!!!

I also think the govt should be doing something about going after the people who caused this crisis and also where is the govt plans for job-creation??? Where is the leadership when we need it most...

Just my thoughts on the whole sorrry mess that this country is....

Jip

Listening to Joe Duffy, he done one of his polls in which about 11,000 people texted in either Yes or No on if they agree with the 12 days unpaid leave deal, it was 85% against and 15% for. It's a decent enough snap shot of what people are thinking.

cavedave

I have an idea. Lets all take the first two weeks of the year off.
Actually lets cancel the first two weeks of the year. The new 350 day year will result in more regular christmas' stimulating the economy. Also the seasons will gradually shift throughout the year. So we could finally have a warm christmas.

woodseb

Riskymove wrote: »

actually he is responding to a suggestion that this unpaid leave will be "on top of their 15 days paid sick leave"

noone says that there are not public servants out on sick leave but to suggest that we all have some sort of set amount each year is rubbish

no, he wasnt'

Originally Posted by ceret View Post
The average public sector worker takes 11 days sick leave per year. Female public sector workers take on average 14 days per year. It's approximatly twice the private sector average.

Comptroller & Auditor General's Report -
Irish Times - Irish Independent
Well I must be working in a totally different civil service. Where I work, apart from 2 people out on long term sick leave (out of an office of 50) there have been very few people out on sick leave here this year. Including me I would say about 10 people have taken a days sick leave this year with 3 of them taking 2 days.

BlackNinja

Big Vern wrote: »

Hi,
I work in the PS and think this deal is a complete joke..im at the lower level of the PS and this 12 days off will be about a 5% cut of my yearly pay...this will be the same cut for the higher paid manager etc...they get away with it yet again...(TD's will get away with having to take a pay cut, they should be cut by about 25%). Im sure with the Guards, Nurses etc this will be completely un-workable and later in the year they will just end up working the days and no savings will be made....services will be affected..
Ive been a union member/supporter for years, but I feel ive been sold out by them, just to look after people at a higher level making good money. Will prob leave my union...

People in the PS need to wake up and realise how much this country is in trouble..I was prepared to take a 2/3% pay reduction, higher percentages for the higher paid...as the numbers in the PS are reduced due to retirements etc this could be reviewed, im talking over a few years here....im also in favour of reforms in the PS, (bank time in this day n age is a complete joke n should be gone straight away) Sick leave also needs to be reviewed...and a complete review of what work people are actually doing, so staff can be placed where they are needed most...

Maybe im too honest to be working in the PS!!!

I also think the govt should be doing something about going after the people who caused this crisis and also where is the govt plans for job-creation??? Where is the leadership when we need it most...

Just my thoughts on the whole sorrry mess that this country is....

Would have to agree with you there Big Vern, its total crap altogether

Rb

Jip wrote: »

Listening to Joe Duffy, he done one of his polls in which about 11,000 people texted in either Yes or No on if they agree with the 12 days unpaid leave deal, it was 85% against and 15% for. It's a decent enough snap shot of what people are thinking.

And just over 18% make up the workforce here....fancy that.

Unfortunately I'm hoping a foreign element comes in and takes control. Fianna Fail can't guide this country through the good years and today they've shown that above everything else they've f*cked up, they can't even handle the most basic of things (sticking to your plan) during the bad years. The people, the very same people this Government is supposed to be representing, are saying to cut the Public Sector pay. The pay who the very same people are fronting the bill for, yet it is falling on deaf ears once again.

I've got more angry about this as the day has gone on, we literally have no option with the exception of violence at this stage. The Government won't go and unfortunately there are people retarded enough to give them votes still in the country. I suppose we can only hope that the EU steps in and takes over, at this stage I would love to see it, I would absolutely cherish the sight of it.

That or I would also enjoy the sight of our Government "representatives" being dragged from the Dail and hung in public and a new Government established. Unfortunately though, I can't see that ever happening.

Dubh Geannain

gazzer wrote: »

Well I must be working in a totally different civil service. Where I work, apart from 2 people out on long term sick leave (out of an office of 50) there have been very few people out on sick leave here this year. Including me I would say about 10 people have taken a days sick leave this year with 3 of them taking 2 days.

Counting your two colleagues on longterm sick leave. Assume 260 days a year, then: 260*2 + 10 + 3 = 533

533 / 50employees = 10.66 giving a PS average of 11 as quoted above

There's always one, or in this case two :pac: that spoil it for everyone

Edit: Just saw Riskymove's post. He hit the nail on the head. It is unfair tarring everyone with the same brush, but that's what happens. What's key here is the PS needs to lose the deadwood and I'm afraid take some pain in the form of pay cuts.

woodseb

Dubh Geannain wrote: »

Counting your two colleagues on longterm sick leave. Assume 260 days a year, then: 260*2 + 10 + 3 = 533

533 / 50employees = 10.66 giving a PS average of 11 as quoted above

There's always one, or in this case two :pac: that spoil it for everyone

Edit: Just saw Riskymove's post. He hit the nail on the head. It is unfair tarring everyone with the same brush, but that's what happens. What's key here is the PS needs to lose the deadwood

so if you take gazzers post as representative of the PS workforce, 4% of the workforce are on long term sickleave and are skewing the figures for the whole public sector???

either way, i don't buy that reasoning, long term sick leave would be certified, the data for uncertified leave was pretty shocking if i remember

strathspey

.

pat kenny

He has not done a walk around in some time.It is unlikely he will do one any time soon with his approval rating, he would just get heckled and abused.

But in essence Cowen has signed away his own political future,and that of his party with this decision,I don't believe he will even hold onto his own seat at the next election.
I am not sure what "sound minded" private sector worker will ever give FF a vote in the near future.