The "worst of all possible worlds": The deal between Government and the unions

P. Breathnach

woodseb wrote: »

... either way, i don't buy that reasoning, long term sick leave would be certified, the data for uncertified leave was pretty shocking if i remember

What data was that? The CAG reported on sick leave.

irish_bob

Fred83 wrote: »

fair play to mr bruton,he spoke for the ordinary man there

if he replaces kennny , his party will romp home ( without labour ) next election

fine gael have an open goal in front of them , thier opportunity is huge , providing they replace kenny who is a major turn off to a huge number of potential fine gael voters , they will win a landslide at the next election , the non fat cat private sector voter has no party to represent them now , thier is a sleeping giant ( private sector and unemployed former private sector ) out there wandering the land looking for a voice, will fine gael answer

97i9y3941

well kenny is bit of a hypro,he stays quiet about the teachers strikeing etc because he was one himself and still gets benefits *of course we brush that under the carpet...

irish_bob

Jip wrote: »

Listening to Joe Duffy, he done one of his polls in which about 11,000 people texted in either Yes or No on if they agree with the 12 days unpaid leave deal, it was 85% against and 15% for. It's a decent enough snap shot of what people are thinking.

was listening to liveline on my way to rosslare today , while the vast majority of callers were appalled at this plan , joe danced as fast as he could for the unions

jake59

GER12 wrote: »

T

Maybe, another thing that needs to be "negotiated" as part of budget proposals is "sick leave". Lets start paying public servants ONLY the minimum social welfare rates when they go on any certified sick leave. That level of income would definately cut the pay bill - like in the state lab where 67% of staff have taken sick leave!

In fairness there are different types of sick leave whether its due to an injury at work or otherwise. Although a lot of sick leave is genuine there are a huge amount of malingerers in the public service who are playing the system. I think what has to be remembered here is that the public service is a huge entity which encompasses many different areas and levels of expertise and education. I can't see how the garda or firefighter who are out there risking their lives can be put in the same basket as the hse office worker who is in an office with little to do (these are purely examples). There needs to be a streamling of the service as a whole which should include redundancies in my opinion. Its a pity we live in a country with "leaders" who are both spineless and clueless when it comes to planning for the future of our country. I'm a public servant and personally think this deal is definitely not the way to go..

Dr Galen

irish_bob wrote: »

if he replaces kennny , his party will romp home ( without labour ) next election

fine gael have an open goal in front of them , thier opportunity is huge , providing they replace kenny who is a major turn off to a huge number of potential fine gael voters , they will win a landslide at the next election , the non fat cat private sector voter has no party to represent them now , thier is a sleeping giant ( private sector and unemployed former private sector ) out there wandering the land looking for a voice, will fine gael answer

i think you'd be surprised at the amount of public sector workers who would also vote FG. I think your right in that, if FG can answer the call for even a bit of leadership right now, people will flock to them, regardless of where they do or don't work

Flex

irish_bob wrote: »

if he replaces kennny , his party will romp home ( without labour ) next election

fine gael have an open goal in front of them , thier opportunity is huge , providing they replace kenny who is a major turn off to a huge number of potential fine gael voters , they will win a landslide at the next election , the non fat cat private sector voter has no party to represent them now , thier is a sleeping giant ( private sector and unemployed former private sector ) out there wandering the land looking for a voice, will fine gael answer

Id glady vote for Fine Gael except for one major issue; they probably wouldnt win a strong enough share of seats and would end up bringing Labour into government...

westtip

Rb wrote: »

What will it take for the IMF to come in and take over?

Very disappointed at todays news.

I just wish they would come and get it over and done with, just when FF had one chance to gain some credibility and pull the rabbit out of the hat they have shown they are not fit to Govern.

Governing does not mean letting the beards run the country.

westtip

jake59 wrote: »

In fairness there are different types of sick leave ..

Too dam right there is:

There is public sector sick leave - "I am entitled to 16 days a sick leave a year and have a bit of a sniffly nose"

And there is Self employed sick leave - Self employed people are remarkably resilient and cannot afford to get sick

And you don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out why....

mikemac

I don't remember voting for David Begg and Congress.
I expect my country's leaders from whatever party to be strong and lead! Call the shots and do what you can in the national interest. I don't care if it's FF, I expect all parties to at least attempt this.

I don't see it happening. I expect the government in power to make mistakes, everyone makes mistakes.
But at least set a goal and face down anyone who stands in your way

FF set a goal and give the exact amount they wish to save. And now it won't be reached. Or not as they planned anyway

westtip

force eleven wrote: »

So - at the very best, 500 million will have to garnered from somewhere else. God help us. I hope the IMF come in very soon, how can you have public servants (government) dealing with public servants and expect a deal that the economy needs? They have fudged it and ultimately we all have to pay. :mad:

This is a great point - the beards who pay is linked to senior civil servants pay rates (where did that F**king piece of brilliant thinking come from) sit down to negotiate with the senior level overpaid CS of the central Government office.

Now what kind of result is that going to throw up (talking of which pass me the bucket) FFS!!!!

Sleepy

Maybe it's time for the Private Sector to strike?

How much damage would a general strike of the productive sector of the economy do to the exchequer?

Sometimes it's necessary to cut some healthy tissue out in order to remove the tumour.

lmimmfn

i thought it was an absolute disgrace and complete cop out when i heard this, not only that, the proposal is only for a year( from what i hear on todayfm news ), so we're back in the same $hit next year, except that spending has to be reduced again by another 4 billion, so we have that 4 and again the 800million from the PS being back to square one, on top of that the other 500million will of course be got via taxes on the private and public sector, ffs, so again us private sector will pay more for the public sector, arrrggghhhhh

Cowen and FF are an absolute joke

97i9y3941

next year difference is no job losses in the public sector,just more people joining the dole queue from the private sec..

Mr Goon

westtip wrote: »

Too dam right there is:

There is public sector sick leave - "I am entitled to 16 days a sick leave a year and have a bit of a sniffly nose"

And there is Self employed sick leave - Self employed people are remarkably resilient and cannot afford to get sick

And you don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out why....

Again, targeting everyone with the one brush. I'm in the public sector and in 6 years I have taken two sick days, one of which was spent in A & E. Yet because of my job you automatically assume I 'chuck sickies' on a regular basis.

This argument might go somewhere if people concentrated on the individuals causing the problem, rather than treating us all as one group. My argument wouldn't last one second if I assumed that ALL private sector workers are getting bonuses, on the basis that 2 of my mates are. Luckily, I can distinguish one private sector worker from another. Maybe if people could do the same with public sector workers, we might actually achieve something.

lmimmfn

Mr Goon wrote: »

Again, targeting everyone with the one brush. I'm in the public sector and in 6 years I have taken two sick days, one of which was spent in A & E. Yet because of my job you automatically assume I 'chuck sickies' on a regular basis.

This argument might go somewhere if people concentrated on the individuals causing the problem, rather than treating us all as one group. My argument wouldn't last one second if I assumed that ALL private sector workers are getting bonuses, on the basis that 2 of my mates are. Luckily, I can distinguish one private sector worker from another. Maybe if people could do the same with public sector workers, we might actually achieve something.

er its the group together which isint affordable, not yourself with your low amount of sick days or someone working on 25k a year.

Youre asking me to pay more tax because youre unwilling to accept that you're too expensive, cheers for that, why oh why are those of us in the private sector enraged?

BostonB

lmimmfn wrote: »

...why oh why are those of us in the private sector enraged?

Your bubble burst.

The Govt is inept. Unfortunately its doubtful the other parties would be any better. They need to tackle the unions not pander to them.

lmimmfn

BostonB wrote: »

Your bubble burst.

The Govt is inept. Unfortunately its doubtful the other parties would be any better.

dont know many in the private sector who had a bubble to burst,whens the PS gravey train bubble going to burst?

All current parties are a joke. The me fein attitude of this country is a joke.

If PS wages arent cut, along with social welfare and minimum wage cuts which will indirectly cut private sector pay, we will never ever get out of this.

silvervixen84

Mr Goon wrote: »

Again, targeting everyone with the one brush. I'm in the public sector and in 6 years I have taken two sick days, one of which was spent in A & E. Yet because of my job you automatically assume I 'chuck sickies' on a regular basis.

fair enough, but do you think that any public sector worker who is taking unfair advantage of the sick day allowance is going to admit it here and subject themselves to a roasting?

In both private and public sectors there are lazy workers who don't give a rats a55 about their fellow employees, team and department. The difference is, in the private sector, they eventually get caught out and reprimanded/fired for taking the mick.

Everyone is accountable if we're going to weather the storm of the recession, both private and public sector workers. People need to stop sniping about who's got it worse, it's not productive.

A general election needs to be called. Let the voters decide afresh who they want to sort out the problems, and let the chosen government get on with it. The unions should assist the chosen government, not block its proposals and plans.

lmimmfn

silvervixen84 wrote: »

Mr Goon wrote: »

Again, targeting everyone with the one brush. I'm in the public sector and in 6 years I have taken two sick days, one of which was spent in A & E. Yet because of my job you automatically assume I 'chuck sickies' on a regular basis.

fair enough, but do you think that any public sector worker who is taking unfair advantage of the sick day allowance is going to admit it here and subject themselves to a roasting?

In both private and public sectors there are lazy workers who don't give a rats a55 about their fellow employees, team and department. The difference is, in the private sector, they eventually get caught out and reprimanded/fired for taking the mick.

Everyone is accountable if we're going to weather the storm of the recession, both private and public sector workers. People need to stop sniping about who's got it worse, it's not productive.

A general election needs to be called. Let the voters decide afresh who they want to sort out the problems, and let the chosen government get on with it. The unions should assist the chosen government, not block its proposals and plans.

do you think anyone in the local councils planning departments will get a roasting for ok'ing property development on flood plains? i doubt it, no accountability=dont give a crap attitude=crap productivity.

BostonB

lmimmfn wrote: »

dont know many in the private sector who had a bubble to burst,whens the PS gravey train bubble going to burst?...

You must have missed the last 10yrs so...

Banks, developers, tradespeople, Car Dealers, rip off shops, easy credit, the list is endless etc.

BostonB

lmimmfn wrote: »

do you think anyone in the local councils planning departments will get a roasting for ok'ing property development on flood plains? i doubt it, no accountability=dont give a crap attitude=crap productivity.

Will the banks who gave the mortgages or the developer who built on it, or the estate agents who sold it etc.

lmimmfn

BostonB wrote: »

You must have missed the last 10yrs so...

Banks, developers, tradespeople, Car Dealers, rip off shops, easy credit, the list is endless etc.

fair enough, but out of that there's actually 1 which contributes to GNP, the rest being the gravey train internal money movement crap that we all delt with. Yes private sector 'services' were a rip off but theyre cheap now and PS services are a rip off.

Theres a difference in the private sector between those who contribute to GNP and those who just rip you off. In the past 10 years i shopped up north( for the stuff we were ripped off on down here, i can even list you the gorcery list lol - Tropicana 50% cheaper up north, Lynx 30% cheaper etc. ), i bought second hand cars( still expensive though ill admit ), never used rip off trades people, developers and well have to use banks unortunately.

Someone who is a banker in the private sector compared to someone who is working behind the counter in a shop is hardly the same thing, someone working for the Ambulance service compared to a clerical officer is very much the same iun most aspects = job for life, guaranteed pension and benchmarking to make sure you get paid better than your average private sector worker.

BostonB wrote: »

Will the banks who gave the mortgages or the developer who built on it, or the estate agents who sold it etc.

The buck stops at the person in the government who ok'd it. Capitalism means to do whatever it takes to make money, the government try and regulate this to ensure it doesnt get out of control. The guy in the PS in the council said it was ok. If my house was flooded regularly i would sue the council. There are estates in Athlone that are flooded every few years.

BostonB

lmimmfn wrote: »

...Theres a difference in the private sector between those who contribute to GNP and those who just rip you off.....

You'll have to explain that...I don't get it.

lmimmfn wrote: »

.
Someone who is a banker in the private sector compared to someone who is working behind the counter in a shop is hardly the same thing,
.....

How about someone who cleans the bank? The security guard, the teller? How abut the owner of the shop, the landlord of the shops, the owner of the chain of shops?

lmimmfn wrote: »

.
someone working for the Ambulance service compared to a clerical officer is very much the same iun most aspects = job for life, guaranteed pension and benchmarking to make sure you get paid better than your average private sector worker.

Thats the perk that gets people to work in jobs that otherwise people wouldn't want to do. Otherwise people would just work for those jobs that made the most money. If there was no pension, and the money was the same, would you work in a trendy bar or the unemployment office, or the tax office instead of selling holidays?

lmimmfn wrote: »

The buck stops at the person in the government who ok'd it. Capitalism means to do whatever it takes to make money, the government try and regulate this to ensure it doesnt get out of control. The guy in the PS in the council said it was ok. If my house was flooded regularly i would sue the council. There are estates in Athlone that are flooded every few years.

Why would you buy somewhere that flooded regularly?

lmimmfn

BostonB wrote: »

You'll have to explain that...I don't get it.

private sector services dont contribute to exports, they leech off the economy like the ......

BostonB wrote: »

How about someone who cleans the bank? The security guard, the teller? How abut the owner of the shop, the landlord of the shops, the owner of the chain of shops?

exactly, choice of jobs, cleaner in public or private?

BostonB wrote: »

Thats the perk that gets people to work in jobs that otherwise people wouldn't want to do. Otherwise people would just work for those jobs that made the most money. If there was no pension, and the money was the same, would you work in a trendy bar or the unemployment office, or the tax office instead of selling holidays?

Im in the private sector, i want to work where most of the money is, where can i sign up to be an ambulance driver? or work for the fire brigade?
so levaing out the pension we should pay people more in the public sector to do boring jobs than working in an 'exciting' private sector job?

I couldnt give a crap where i worked as long as i felt it was contributing and i got paid. I worked 60 hour weeks on building sites in scotland( with on average 24 hours travel time on top of that to get to sites ) to fund my education, siting in a welfare office dealing with the public and getting paid is no problem for me. Theres plenty with masters on the dole that would love to do that same job and would only ask for half 20-25k for it.

BostonB wrote: »

Why would you buy somewhere that flooded regularly?

I didnt, but best ask that question to those who bought an apartment or house somewhere where it was thrown up in a year and they didnt know any better.

Mr Goon

lmimmfn wrote: »

er its the group together which isint affordable, not yourself with your low amount of sick days or someone working on 25k a year.

Youre asking me to pay more tax because youre unwilling to accept that you're too expensive, cheers for that, why oh why are those of us in the private sector enraged?

If 'jumping to assumptions' was an Olympic sport we have the 2012 medals tied up! Please show me where I said you should pay more tax???

Cut out the 'fat' ie: wasters in the public sector rather than target those that do their job/are low paid. Also, increase tax on those over €100k (if you earn over €100k then, yes, I do think you should contribute). Any contribution then needed to be made to make up the €1.3bn can then be got from the Public Sector 'masses'. I never had a problem paying my share, its how the share is divided up I have the issue with.

By the way, I don't think I'm too expensive. My 5 mates in the private sector all earn more than me, with less qualifications. Fair play to them, I have no issue with anyone earning more than me, but we aren't all overpaid in the Public Sector you know. I will have to take a pay cut, and will do so, to try get the country out of a hole, not because I'm expensive, as I am not. Some are...they are the ones needing dealing with.

westtip

Mr Goon wrote: »

Again, targeting everyone with the one brush. I'm in the public sector and in 6 years I have taken two sick days, one of which was spent in A & E. Yet because of my job you automatically assume I 'chuck sickies' on a regular basis.

This argument might go somewhere if people concentrated on the individuals causing the problem, rather than treating us all as one group. My argument wouldn't last one second if I assumed that ALL private sector workers are getting bonuses, on the basis that 2 of my mates are. Luckily, I can distinguish one private sector worker from another. Maybe if people could do the same with public sector workers, we might actually achieve something.

I am sorry mate it was not meant as personal swipe it is just the perception we all have of the PS. Figures published recently (don't ask me to pull them out but we all know they were published) showed a massive discrepancy between average sick days taken in the PS v the Private S. What gets me in the Private sector if you were a serial sickie (and I am not talking of real long terms sickness or genuine cases) but a serial sickie taking days off for colds and minor ailments at the drop of a hat in a private company HR would pull you in and say whats the problem? and eventually you would be gotten rid of - cos the Small private sector companies simply cannot afford to carry passengers.

There would be no chance of getting rid of someone in the PS cos they pulled too many sickies. All this stuff is anecdotal but I have heard of people who have been told to take their full allocation of sick days?! Urban myth? maybe but you know its actually not hard to believe.

Its things like this that just p*ss us all off out here. WE are just fed up with paying for it.

The_Honeybadger

westtip wrote: »

I am sorry mate it was not meant as personal swipe it is just the perception we all have of the PS. Figures published recently (don't ask me to pull them out but we all know they were published) showed a massive discrepancy between average sick days taken in the PS v the Private S. What gets me in the Private sector if you were a serial sickie (and I am not talking of real long terms sickness or genuine cases) but a serial sickie taking days off for colds and minor ailments at the drop of a hat in a private company HR would pull you in and say whats the problem? and eventually you would be gotten rid of - cos the Small private sector companies simply cannot afford to carry passengers.

There would be no chance of getting rid of someone in the PS cos they pulled too many sickies. All this stuff is anecdotal but I have heard of people who have been told to take their full allocation of sick days?! Urban myth? maybe but you know its actually not hard to believe.

Its things like this that just p*ss us all off out here. WE are just fed up with paying for it.

I had an uncle who was a PO in the civil service, he retired a few years ago but when we used to visit him for summer hols he used to take hols at the same time, I often remember him discussing his hols and what he had left and as far as I could make out he counted sick days as part of his holidays i.e. he may have taken 3 days hols and 2 sick to make up a working week. That was in the 90's not sure if vit would be tolerated now and he was the boss of that entire department after all, but he saw them as an entitlement and sick days generally had nothing to do with being sick. Not saying that still goes on or anything but that was deemed acceptable at that time.

amacachi

mickeyk wrote: »

I had an uncle who was a PO in the civil service, he retired a few years ago but when we used to visit him for summer hols he used to take hols at the same time, I often remember him discussing his hols and what he had left and as far as I could make out he counted sick days as part of his holidays i.e. he may have taken 3 days hols and 2 sick to make up a working week. That was in the 90's not sure if vit would be tolerated now and he was the boss of that entire department after all, but he saw them as an entitlement and sick days generally had nothing to do with being sick. Not saying that still goes on or anything but that was deemed acceptable at that time.

It'll vary across departments and I doubt having sick days around leave days would be tolerated too much now. I know one department though that allows 2 days off sick without a doctor's note unless the days are either side of the weekend.

LoLth

mickeyk wrote: »

I had an uncle who was a PO in the civil service, he retired a few years ago but when we used to visit him for summer hols he used to take hols at the same time, I often remember him discussing his hols and what he had left and as far as I could make out he counted sick days as part of his holidays i.e. he may have taken 3 days hols and 2 sick to make up a working week. That was in the 90's not sure if vit would be tolerated now and he was the boss of that entire department after all, but he saw them as an entitlement and sick days generally had nothing to do with being sick. Not saying that still goes on or anything but that was deemed acceptable at that time.

Certainly I would agree that there are some that would abuse sick leave and treat it as additional holiday leave but that would occur in BOTH sectors. (I worked with one engineer that would take sick days to pad out trips abroad to allow him a few extra days stay for sightseeing, this was Private sector). Similarly, I know one receptionist who hasnt taken a sick day in 14 years (private sector) and an IT engineer (public sector) that has only taken 1 sick day in the last three years (he broke a bone in his wrist on a sunday and took the monday off because he wanted to rest it).

Anecdotal evidence by itself is almost useless (no offense to your post intended). The story you tell above says more about your uncle's work ethic than it does about the public sector in general and it would be unfair to characterise an entire sector by the example of one member.

using sick days as leave is , as far as I know, frowned upon and punishable by organisations in both sectors. I have never heard of an organisation that actually allowed such actions. Now, whether or not the manager turns a blind eye to this behaviour is another question altogether and those that do should be targetted as part of the reforms mentioned (just like any private sector profit making ocmpany would tackle a manager that allows this behaviour in an effort to protect its own profits).