PS Pay Deal - Teachers staggering days off!!

bladespin

super_furry wrote: »

Teachers don't get paid during the summer.....

No they get paid for it during the working year, pretty good deal if you ask anyone else who works.

Stark

muboop1 wrote: »

15 an hour for bottom rung in his first year isn't bad. My problem is the bonus!

You're begrudging someone on €30k for being paid a performance bonus? The other side of the coin is that if he doesn't perform, he gets paid no bonus and no salary increase. Whereas the public sector worker will get paid their salary increment regardless.

muboop1

johnp23 wrote: »

Does this friend of yours get a 3 month Paid holiday ...........................


Didnt think so. Teachers just like all public sector and private sector workers need to cope on The good times are over everyone needs to pull up there socks and be counted and pay for there piece of the pie it doesnt mattter if you ate if or not. The first thing should be the Public sector pension that should be gone completely if you want a pension pay for it yourself. I didnt buy a house during the boom i didnt buy a fancy car in good times i just pottered on rented and that was that. Now i have to pay and income levy to pay for some private sector banker to stay in his job or for some public sector pen pusher to sit behind a desk and do SFA.


PS all unions and there so called boards should be disbanded. Just my tupence worth

Mate that is a ridiculous statement. The thing is, if the education system got an over haul and they got less holidays I'm sure they would accept it! That the education system allows them this is another issue.

As for the public sector pension, most teachers would gladly lose that pension if they got an option to pay into their own along with the state pension like everyone else.

As for the rest of your self serving rant... well done???

The_Honeybadger

muboop1 wrote: »

Mate that is a ridiculous statement. The thing is, if the education system got an over haul and they got less holidays I'm sure they would accept it! That the education system allows them this is another issue.

As for the public sector pension, most teachers would gladly lose that pension if they got an option to pay into their own along with the state pension like everyone else.

As for the rest of your self serving rant... well done???

Sorry but I have to disagree, if you tried to take any holidays off teachers there would be absolute murder and strikes. Same goes for their pensions.

littlebsci

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

I would be as smug as to say your putting your own financial gain over the welfare and future of the kids you claim to love teaching!!

If you read my reply, you'd see I've clearly stated that taking a pay cut is something I've accepted we are going to have to do. All I would prefer is that the powers that be would just come out and say "right we're cutting you pay by X%" and let that be the end of it. These unpaid days are going to cause even more bad blood between private and public sectors.

Dr. Greenthumb

muboop1 wrote: »

I agree that is ridiculous. But thats not what my point was at all.
15 an hour for bottom rung in his first year isn't bad. My problem is the bonus!

It's not all the banks fault, they are regulated by the Financial Regulator (Public Service Body), just like the developers couldn't build without planning or paying local authority fees.

angeldelight

But of course they would take the days during the school year. The idea is to have unpaid leave - all the other public servants would get an extra 2 weeks off work.. so teachers should get the same. Otherwise it's the same holidays but less money so it's a pay cut for teachers only while the rest of the public service get holidays.

I'm not a teacher by the way, I don't work in the public sector at all.

My OH works in the private sector and he had to take unpaid leave to correspond to a 10% reduction in salary. The whole point was that it wasn't a pay cut - he was getting the time off to make up for it. This is the same thing... if the teachers don't get the extra holidays at a time they wouldn't be off already it's unfair. It shouldn't matter how many days holidays any public servant has to start with - this is extra time off to compensate for a drop in earnings

muboop1

Stark wrote: »

You're begrudging someone on €30k for being paid a performance bonus? The other side of the coin is that if he doesn't perform, he gets paid no bonus and no salary increase. Whereas the public sector worker will get paid their salary increment regardless.

Ah yeh but with no qualifications, first year working 30*0.08=2.4k,
So he gets 32.4k a year approx. For his first year in a job, totally unqualified.
He has pleanty of room to be promoted...
He says this himself.

Granted at least his salary increase will be performance based.
But the potential for it is still there. As for if he doesnt perform, his words were he has to get it according to his contract.
I do not know teachers starting salary, 36 or so probably? can't remember im sure someone here knows. But im damn sure within the next 4 years he will up his salary by that much. So by that logic after 4 years he will have at least the same wage a new qualified teacher has. Except the new qualified teacher wasn't earning the whole way along.

The fecking gap isn't as big as everyone assumes. Not for all cases.

johnp23

You seem to say the teachers will glady do this and do that . Why dont you do it then???. Practise what you preach to the students to be pro-active in life. Teachers are comfortable now and in all fairness have no interest and changing anything

Darragh29

littlebsci wrote: »

If you read my reply, you'd see I've clearly stated that taking a pay cut is something I've accepted we are going to have to do. All I would prefer is that the powers that be would just come out and say "right we're cutting you pay by X%" and let that be the end of it. These unpaid days are going to cause even more bad blood between private and public sectors.

I can tell you one thing, if this government was running a private sector business, it would have been long since put into liquidation if it even got up and running in the first place...

All that is required here is a decision and then a commitment to execute the decision without fear or favour. The worst thing that can happen, is what is happening here, dithering and procrastinating and sending out mixed signals all over the place.

Just make a f*cking decision for once and IMPLEMENT IT!!! Cut pay, everyone over 40K is taking a pay cut, keep it simple and stop fannying around with stupid ideas like unpaid leave and such sh*te which are completely unworkable.

There is only one thing worse than a bad decision and that is NO DECISION...

muboop1

mickeyk wrote: »

Sorry but I have to disagree, if you tried to take any holidays off teachers there would be absolute murder and strikes. Same goes for their pensions.

Can you back up the pension thing do really?

If they got their money for whatever as put in to date, and changed existing contracts for same deals bar they do their pension themselves most wouldn't have a problem. I know this from talking to my dad and his mates.

If you made their holidays shorter, end of day thats tuff. If education system got an overhaul many would be ok with it i'm sure, once it was structured with a significant improvement.

johnp23

muboop1 wrote: »

Can you back up the pension thing do really?

If they got their money for whatever as put in to date, and changed existing contracts for same deals bar they do their pension themselves most wouldn't have a problem. I know this from talking to my dad and his mates.

If you made their holidays shorter, end of day thats tuff. If education system got an overhaul many would be ok with it i'm sure, once it was structured with a significant improvement.

Then why didnt the teachers suggest these cost cutting mesaures they can jump up and down when someone suggests something else but keep there mouths shut when there asked to speak. Teachers can say we would give up this we would give up that . All i would say it do it lead by example your the educators of this country lead by example and stop hiding behind your big brother(the Unions)

MI5

Darragh29 wrote: »

I can tell you one thing, if this government was running a private sector business, it would have been long since put into liquidation if it even got up and running in the first place...

All that is required here is a decision and then a commitment to execute the decision without fear or favour. The worst thing that can happen, is what is happening here, dithering and procrastinating and sending out mixed signals all over the place.

Just make a f*cking decision for once and IMPLEMENT IT!!! Cut pay, everyone over 40K is taking a pay cut, keep it simple and stop fannying around with stupid ideas like unpaid leave and such sh*te which are completely unworkable.

There is only one thing worse than a bad decision and that is NO DECISION...

Bang on. In fact if the ministers in this government were company directors, they could be charged with reckless trading, with all the legal ramifications which follow. Example, barred for 5 years from acting as a director .
Shame, we can't fire the whole lot of them except Lehihan. I think he actually is taking his responsibilities seriously.

muboop1

johnp23 wrote: »

You seem to say the teachers will glady do this and do that . Why dont you do it then???. Practise what you preach to the students to be pro-active in life. Teachers are comfortable now and in all fairness have no interest and changing anything

Typical rubbish point of view, begrudging public sector worker.
People will always strike when given a pay cut. Accept it.
Im not a teacher so doesn't apply to me anyway.

Practice what you preach to the students??? care to elaborate? in any context regarding this thread makes no sense.

Teachers have no interest in changing anything? well done for having an opinion. Go do a survey get some concrete facts and come back. Then claim its a fact... else your just producing word vomit.

Fact is most teachers would be ok with change, but nobody in the world is ok with a pay cut...

muboop1

johnp23 wrote: »

Then why didnt the teachers suggest these cost cutting mesaures they can jump up and down when someone suggests something else but keep there mouths shut when there asked to speak. Teachers can say we would give up this we would give up that . All i would say it do it lead by example your the educators of this country lead by example and stop hiding behind your big brother(the Unions)

Pointless post. You really need to elaborate your point, give an example or two please. Else you aren't making sense!

The_Honeybadger

muboop1 wrote: »

Can you back up the pension thing do really?

If they got their money for whatever as put in to date, and changed existing contracts for same deals bar they do their pension themselves most wouldn't have a problem. I know this from talking to my dad and his mates.

If you made their holidays shorter, end of day thats tuff. If education system got an overhaul many would be ok with it i'm sure, once it was structured with a significant improvement.

We are both only expressing opinions, I don't think talking to your dad and his mates counts as backing anything up quite frankly. Teachers have a very poor record in being co-operative in any type of reform so it is naive in the extreme to think most would be ok with reduced holidays, they would look for extra pay at least and would go on strike at worst IMO.

Their pensions are linked to their final salary and many get promotions before they retire, they would be crazy to enter a private defined benefit scheme, again IMO.

NOGMaxpower

littlebsci wrote: »

Yes I am a teacher and quite frankly I'd prefer if we just had to take a pay cut as it might (only might though!!!) get some of the people baying for our blood off our backs.

Also as a teacher it is such a pain in the ass to have to take personal days at all that I don't fancy the hassle of being forced to take unpaid leave during the year. In my opinion, what will more than likely happen is that many (many) teachers won't bother taking the days allocated and will just take the hit on the salary.

Don't take that to mean though that I feel we should be forced to take them during the summer. That is simply a pay cut and should be declared as such!

Don't be so smug as to suggest that we would be "patting ourselves on the back" about any of this. The majority of us realise we are probably going to have to take a hit. Naturally we don't want to. How many people ever want to take a pay cut, lose jobs etc??? But I know I've just accepted it. (I think my parents are going to have to too.....they'll probably get stuck with me at home for even longer than anticipated now) :rolleyes:

welcome to the reality us in the private sector had to face earlier in the year.

Stark

muboop1 wrote: »

I do not know teachers starting salary, 36 or so probably? can't remember im sure someone here knows. But im damn sure within the next 4 years he will up his salary by that much. So by that logic after 4 years he will have at least the same wage a new qualified teacher has. Except the new qualified teacher wasn't earning the whole way along.

A teacher with a Hdip will start on €40k for 9 months work (which works out to about €53k if you take it pro-rata).

LoLth

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Where does he work?
I got an Xmas bonus once in the last 6 years (it was worth €39.99)

I don't know one single person getting bonuses (outside of a Sales role)

I've worked for 4 companies over 10 years and I've gotten a Christmas bonus every year, even the year where the company announced "no christmas bonus" I was one of five employees elected by the board of directors to receive a bonus! €600 , not to be sneezed at either (though I felt bad as I went shopping for Christmans presents, that others in the company werent getting anything).

Diarmuid

muboop1 wrote: »

My dads a teacher and he's pissed.

Well you should tell him to cop the f on. He's earning 26% more than his private sector equivalent, not to mention his pension.

johnp23

muboop1 wrote: »

Typical rubbish point of view, begrudging public sector worker.
People will always strike when given a pay cut. Accept it.
Im not a teacher so doesn't apply to me anyway.

Practice what you preach to the students??? care to elaborate? in any context regarding this thread makes no sense.

Teachers have no interest in changing anything? well done for having an opinion. Go do a survey get some concrete facts and come back. Then claim its a fact... else your just producing word vomit.

Fact is most teachers would be ok with change, but nobody in the world is ok with a pay cut...

First look at my previous post that you called rubbish aswell im starting to see a trend. Public and private are to blame we established that part.

well done for having an opinion. Go do a survey get some concrete facts and come back. if i remember rightly the teachers went on strike last week because the suggestion of CHANGES. I think that is sufficent evidence . If most teachers are ok with changes why did they go on strike for no changes.

Of course noone is ok with a pay cut but incase you didnt notice alot of private sector employees where told paycuts or say good bye to your job. Last time i checked that didnt happens to the public sector

Darragh29

Diarmuid wrote: »

Well you should tell him to cop the f on. He's earning 26% more than his private sector equivalent, not to mention his pension.

This is the thing, he doesn't have a "private sector equivilent"!!!!!!!!!!! Who in the private sector gets 3 months paid holidays during the summer, 1-2 weeks off at Halloween, 2 weeks off at Easter, finishes their working day at 4PM at the latest, has a guaranteed pension, guaranteed salary increments, no performance reviews???

The WHOLE THING STINKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RedPlanet

All lot of folks begrudge the fact that teachers "have the summers off", but that is not within the teachers remit to determine.

If the political will exists, we could have schools running all year long.
We don't.
I'm not sure the reasons why.

But because of this, we still expect to have a teaching profession that makes enough money to support themselves while schools are shut.
We could try to stop paying them over the summers, but then that reduces that profession to seasonal employment. And i suspect society won't like the results of that as who do you expect would persue such a career?

RedPlanet

Darragh29 wrote: »

This is the thing, he doesn't have a "private sector equivilent"!!!!!!!!!!! Who in the private sector gets 3 months paid holidays during the summer, 1-2 weeks off at Halloween, 2 weeks off at Easter, finishes their working day at 4PM at the latest, has a guaranteed pension, guaranteed salary increments, no performance reviews???

The WHOLE THING STINKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So are you arguing that our schools should remain in business for the full year?
Or do you prefer to have teaching as seasonal employment.

NOGMaxpower

everyone knows teaching is a thankless job especially in secondary schools. people also know its a cushy number if you compare annual leave with a standard 9-5 job.

Having said that you couldn't pay me enough money to look after a bunch of spotty teenagers or screaming lil kids. What teachers have to put up with goes way beyond acceptable working conditions. Over crowding, under funded schemes, poor facilities and unabareable administration/unions.

Now praise a side, I've always wondered why teachers work 8 months of the year. Surely 3 months of that time should be dedicated to a summer school. The governement have let this slide for generations. Summer schools would mean they're working and are bing productive. Summer schools could be used for assisting students for leaving and junior certs while also looking career options for older students.

For me this is a far better use of their time.

Unfortunately that suggestion is no where near reality. Teachers feel hard done by and rightfully so however they need to cop on and realise the world has changed. Traditionally they'd strike if facilities changed the toilet paper but come off it we're in a recession YOU like everyone else in Ireland is living beyond their means. Take the cut, dont support your unions wasting time and causing roadblocks to recovery.

The Unions are at fault here people, they are not representing the long term interests of the people. They are only looking after their own Union jobs by using the recession as a platform for self justification.

Darragh29

RedPlanet wrote: »

All lot of folks begrudge the fact that teachers "have the summers off", but that is not within the teachers remit to determine.

If the political will exists, we could have schools running all year long.
We don't.
I'm not sure the reasons why.

But because of this, we still expect to have a teaching profession that makes enough money to support themselves while schools are shut.
We could try to stop paying them over the summers, but then that reduces that profession to seasonal employment. And i suspect society won't like the results of that as who do you expect would persue such a career?

How about doing the one logical and rational thing and paying them less because they have a clear benefit here in terms of the time off that they enjoy??? No need to cut pay during the summer or ask people to suffer income gaps, just go back to the drawing board and took at the whole package in its totality and put a fair and reasonable level of renumeration on it, taking into account all of the following facts:

(1) The holiday entitlements are several multiples of the statutory leave entitlements that private sector workers have to make do with.

(2) Salary increments are automatic and are based on time served, no performance reviews, no having to push for your increment, it lands automatically.

(3) The working day is shorter than anything you will find in the private sector.

How come these BENEFITS were not taken into account during benchmarking???

The whole things STINKS to the high heavens, I'm so sick of listening to it...

The_Honeybadger

RedPlanet wrote: »

So are you arguing that our schools should remain in business for the full year?
Or do you prefer to have teaching as seasonal employment.

I certainly dont care what holidays they have, but they are paid a handsome salary from the public purse and we are entitled to question whether we are getting value for money as taxpayers. 60k is point 13 on the scale which many teachers are on, the average industrial wage is between 32-38k and falling. It is too much money for working 7 and a half months of the year. Nobody is going to tell me 60k will only keep food on the table, it is a fine wage for somebody with a BA and a HDip and one which very few teachers would achieve outside of the sector,

Stark

RedPlanet wrote: »

So are you arguing that our schools should remain in business for the full year?
Or do you prefer to have teaching as seasonal employment.

For a start, supervising of exams for junior teachers and correcting of exams for senior teachers during the summer should be considered part of their duties and not as a means of getting even more cash. Why are we paying a senior teacher >60k if they have no associated increase in duties and responsibilities?

RedPlanet

mickeyk wrote: »

I certainly dont care what holidays they have, but they are paid a handsome salary from the public purse and we are entitled to question whether we are getting value for money as taxpayers. 60k is point 13 on the scale which many teachers are on, the average industrial wage is between 32-38k and falling. It is too much money for working 7 and a half months of the year. Nobody is going to tell me 60k will only keep food on the table, it is a fine wage for somebody with a BA and a HDip and one which very few teachers would achieve outside of the sector,

I certainly agree. However I do not know of any teachers on that pay.
I for one, would welcome wholescale top-to-bottom reform of education.
But that's not going to happen.

It's a nice fiction to believe that teaching stops when teh final bell rings and everyone goes home.
But the reality is that those teachers have then to write up all the mis-behaving kids, prepare the next class lesson and lets not forget, meet with parents and school staff during some evenings, "volunteer" to coach fecking field hockey, the school musical/play or whatever else is going on.

In my opinion, as an observer, teaching is less a career and more a lifestyle.

danman

RedPlanet wrote: »

I certainly agree. However I do not know of any teachers on that pay.
I for one, would welcome wholescale top-to-bottom reform of education.
But that's not going to happen.

It's a nice fiction to believe that teaching stops when teh final bell rings and everyone goes home.
But the reality is that those teachers have then to write up all the mis-behaving kids, prepare the next class lesson and lets not forget, meet with parents and school staff during some evenings, "volunteer" to coach fecking field hockey, the school musical/play or whatever else is going on.

In my opinion, as an observer, teaching is less a career and more a lifestyle.

That's all very true, but they only have 22 hours teaching each week. Any additional activities still brings their average hourly week to less than the average in all other sectors.