PS Pay Deal - Teachers staggering days off!!

The_Honeybadger

RedPlanet wrote: »

I certainly agree. However I do not know of any teachers on that pay.
I for one, would welcome wholescale top-to-bottom reform of education.
But that's not going to happen.

It's a nice fiction to believe that teaching stops when teh final bell rings and everyone goes home.
But the reality is that those teachers have then to write up all the mis-behaving kids, prepare the next class lesson and lets not forget, meet with parents and school staff during some evenings, "volunteer" to coach fecking field hockey, the school musical/play or whatever else is going on.

In my opinion, as an observer, teaching is less a career and more a lifestyle.

Any full time teacher after 15 or so years service I think will be on that salary. There are plenty of teachers with that length of service out there. Not to mention the tax free grinds many do to top up incomes as well as supervising exams and correcting etc. I know that they do alot of work outside the classroom but their holidays are holidays with no commitments whatsoever.

graduate

No need to cut pay during the summer or ask people to suffer income gaps, just go back to the drawing board and took at the whole package in its totality and put a fair and reasonable level of renumeration on it,

That's the whole point. There has been no attempt to look at the overall picture.

The PS pay bill has increased quite a bit over the last decade to a point where it cannot be afforded. Some sectors have increased disproportionally in rates and/or numbers , some have not. Some have wages that greatly exceed the private sector, some do not. Some have a great deal of work to do, and in some cases an increasing workload, others do not. Some get bonuses, extra payments and the like, others do not. A year and a half into the crisis there has been no attempt to look at these things or even to frame a fair basis for looking at this detail. Instead all you get are overall figures and across the board treatment so people who aren't busy get extra holidays and people who are busy get a straight pay cut, quite the opposite to what would be desirable.

Stark

RedPlanet wrote: »

It's a nice fiction to believe that teaching stops when teh final bell rings and everyone goes home.
But the reality is that those teachers have then to write up all the mis-behaving kids, prepare the next class lesson and lets not forget, meet with parents and school staff during some evenings, "volunteer" to coach fecking field hockey, the school musical/play or whatever else is going on.

In my opinion, as an observer, teaching is less a career and more a lifestyle.

They're only contracted for 22 hours of week of teaching classes. That's 17 hours left over for writing up naughty slips and preparing for lessons. In Ireland, parent/teacher meetings are done during school hours. And if a teacher does put in extra time and effort, then tough ****, the unions couldn't be having him/her rewarded more than the wasters who no doubt form the bulk of the turnout at the union meetings.

whatisayis

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

I've always wondered why teachers work 8 months of the year. Surely 3 months of that time should be dedicated to a summer school. The governement have let this slide for generations. Summer schools would mean they're working and are bing productive. Summer schools could be used for assisting students for leaving and junior certs while also looking career options for older students.

For me this is a far better use of their time.

Excellent point! Getting paid to sit at home for three months in the summer is simply unsustainable in the current financial climate.

Sin1981

I believe teaching can be a very demanding job if you're working in a rough area. I don't think I'd like to do it. Having said that, every job has its price, and all things considered I genuinely believe they earn too much given, their education and experience.

eg. my friend is a primary school teacher, in her 6th year of teaching. She's on 48K.
I have a PhD in engineering, I'm in my second year of work and I'm on 34K. (Yes, I know I have to gain experience to climb up the money ladder). However, if i were to work where I am and take the increases that this company currently gives on an annual basis, I'll be on 39K after 5 more increases. I'll still be way behind a PS sector salary.

Another example, my next door neighbour has recently graduated, and is subbing in the local high school. She is earning €40/ hour. yes, it's not full time, but that amounts to a lot of money that she is earning, and that the tax payer is paying, for very little work - ie. sitting and supervising a class for 1 hour.
Something needs to be done.

RedPlanet

Sin1981 wrote: »

I believe teaching can be a very demanding job if you're working in a rough area. I don't think I'd like to do it. Having said that, every job has its price, and all things considered I genuinely believe they earn too much given, their education and experience.

In fairness, i know a couple people that seem to spend most their lives collecting degrees in college. Going by your logic they should be earning 6 figures by now huh?

Sin1981

going by my logic, everyone, regardless of education etc have to accept a realistic salary at the moment, including people in PS.
benchmarking them to western European levels would seem the fairest option.

muboop1

Stark wrote: »

A teacher with a Hdip will start on €40k for 9 months work (which works out to about €53k if you take it pro-rata).

Yeh but another way to look at it is, 3 years degree and one year higher diploma i think it called?

Anyway my point on coming on here wasn't to say teachers deserve their pay ultimately. Many do not. Some do. You cannot blame them for their holidays though.

I'd say the reasons teachers are protesting against their holidays being taken out of the summer holidays is simple.

Most other public sector workers will get 12 or whatever EXTRA days off. Teachers won't. To them it's an essentially direct pay cut if they do not get the days off. Many would be happier if just told, hey guys, its a direct pay cut. It would be crap all the same but the honesty would go a long way!

This way it particularly targets them. Right or wrong they are going to feel hard done by and many will not take it lying down because due the difficulty in letting a teacher go they can.

Anybody in that position would do the same!

P. Breathnach

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

... Now praise a side, I've always wondered why teachers work 8 months of the year. Surely 3 months of that time should be dedicated to a summer school. The governement have let this slide for generations. Summer schools would mean they're working and are bing productive. Summer schools could be used for assisting students for leaving and junior certs while also looking career options for older students...

How would that differ from the Autumn, Winter, and Spring schools that students already attend?

RedPlanet

muboop1 wrote: »

Most other public sector workers will get 12 or whatever EXTRA days off. Teachers won't. To them it's an essentially direct pay cut if they do not get the days off. Many would be happier if just told, hey guys, its a direct pay cut. It would be crap all the same but the honesty would go a long way!

This way it particularly targets them. Right or wrong they are going to feel hard done by and many will not take it lying down because due the difficulty in letting a teacher go they can.

Anybody in that position would do the same!

I agree, they won't like being targetted and won't take it lying down.
We already see over-crowding in classes.
37 teenage kids to 1 teacher in a particular class, i've heard.
Which is already contrary to Dept of Education directives.

BTW, when did the idea of getting paid to correct exams occur anyway?
If it were mandatory "unpaid", then it's one of those things that would have to be spred evenly, otherwise the people that get stuck with it will have grounds for a gripe.

The_Honeybadger

muboop1 wrote: »

Most other public sector workers will get 12 or whatever EXTRA days off. Teachers won't. To them it's an essentially direct pay cut if they do not get the days off. Many would be happier if just told, hey guys, its a direct pay cut. It would be crap all the same but the honesty would go a long way!

This way it particularly targets them. Right or wrong they are going to feel hard done by and many will not take it lying down because due the difficulty in letting a teacher go they can.

Anybody in that position would do the same!

Didn't think anybody was suggesting they take them during existing hols. they will get these during school year but over the next few years to spread it out and not cause too much disruption next year, absolutely pointless as a substitute teacher will need to be hired for the day they miss at a greater cost than the teachers actual daily pay as subs are paid a higher hourly rate......... You couldn't make it up!

whatisayis

P. Breathnach wrote: »

How would that differ from the Autumn, Winter, and Spring schools that students already attend?

I would see it as being optional for the students to attend. Therefore if a student was weak in some area e.g. mathematics he/she could have one month intensive tutoring in that subject. It would be of benefit because the class size would probably be smaller and therefore each student would receive individual attention instead of being lost in a sea of 25-30 others. That is but one example.

P. Breathnach

graduate wrote: »

That's the whole point. There has been no attempt to look at the overall picture.

The PS pay bill has increased quite a bit over the last decade to a point where it cannot be afforded. Some sectors have increased disproportionally in rates and/or numbers , some have not. Some have wages that greatly exceed the private sector, some do not. Some have a great deal of work to do, and in some cases an increasing workload, others do not. Some get bonuses, extra payments and the like, others do not. A year and a half into the crisis there has been no attempt to look at these things or even to frame a fair basis for looking at this detail. Instead all you get are overall figures and across the board treatment so people who aren't busy get extra holidays and people who are busy get a straight pay cut, quite the opposite to what would be desirable.

So, in summary, you advocate a benchmarking exercise, combined with a structured exercise to assess what services we need? I'd go along with that.

P. Breathnach

whatisayis wrote: »

I would see it as being optional for the students to attend. Therefore if a student was weak in some area e.g. mathematics he/she could have one month intensive tutoring in that subject. It would be of benefit because the class size would probably be smaller and therefore each student would receive individual attention instead of being lost in a sea of 25-30 others. That is but one example.

I think you have an excessively optimistic view of human nature (and I say that as one of the more optimistic participants here). In general, those with most need of extra help would probably be the least likely to opt for it.

GalwayG

Am I correct in assuming that if the public sector take a pay cut then public sector pensions will have to take a cut. Therefore by forcing existing public sector workers to take days leave will not effect retired (public sector) peoples pensions?????

P. Breathnach

GalwayG wrote: »

Am I correct in assuming that if the public sector take a pay cut then public sector pensions will have to take a cut. Therefore by forcing existing public sector workers to take days leave will not effect retired (public sector) peoples pensions?????

That's how I read things.

danman

muboop1 wrote: »

Most other public sector workers will get 12 or whatever EXTRA days off. Teachers won't. To them it's an essentially direct pay cut if they do not get the days off. Many would be happier if just told, hey guys, its a direct pay cut. It would be crap all the same but the honesty would go a long way!

But the rest of the public sector doesn't have 3 months off per year. Perhaps the rest of the public sector should strike to get parity with teachers.

Honestly, you couldn't make it up. They get 3 months off per year, then complain that they might have to take unpaid leave while they're doing nothing.

"It's just not fair....."

Darragh29

Stoogies the lot of them, Mc Loone, O' Connor, the whole lot of them, stoogies that haven't created a single job in their entire careers...

Lemondrop kid

mickeyk wrote: »

You sound surprised? They obviously need these extra days off to get the most out of those apartments in Bulgaria and Spain and their holiday homes in the country. Apart from the few months in summer and mid-terms and xmas and easter they are lying empty.

That is completely unfounded slur
We RENT those apartments during the rest of the year - they are not left empty!

Darragh29 wrote: »

It gets worse... They get paid MORE MONEY during the summer for correcting state exam papers, 60 Euro per paper, IN ADDITION to getting paid their teachers salaries while they are on a 3 month holiday... There are not words in the English language to describe the selfishness and pure unbridled greed of the teachers in this country...

Have you considered using Gaeilge?
And it's 60 euro for agreeing to correct them (another 80 for doing so)

My mammy wanted me to go into banking -but i said no - teaching's where the moneys at. Phew, thank goodness i got it right.

dublin.caucus

danman wrote: »

But the rest of the public sector doesn't have 3 months off per year. Perhaps the rest of the public sector should strike to get parity with teachers.

Honestly, you couldn't make it up. They get 3 months off per year, then complain that they might have to take unpaid leave while they're doing nothing.

"It's just not fair....."

Now, when I left secondary school I knew more or less how much teachers earned, their hours and their holidays. I decided against that career. I'm guessing most people complaining about teachers here did the same. But that is an aside. With regard to your point about fairness, what is being proposed is patently un- fair.

In return for a reduction in pay, everyone else in the public sector are getting extra holidays.

Except teachers, who are getting nothing in such a scenario in return for a pay-cut. So in effect, they are being signalled out for a pay-cut. Which I think is a tad underhand.

There are other ways this could be worked in education - namely by productivity. For example, in return for keeping their current salaries, I would require secondary school teachers to correct a certain number of state exam papers and also engage in another hour of class supervision.

danman

But the point still stands.

It's grossly unfair to other members of the puplic sector, that one branch gets 3 months off, while the rest of them struggle on.

3 months off is plenty time to get rid of 12 days unpaid.

If teachers want parity, they should teach adult education during the summer. There's no point complaining about parity, when their sector has such an unequalled holiday entitlements.

angeldelight

danman wrote: »

But the rest of the public sector doesn't have 3 months off per year. Perhaps the rest of the public sector should strike to get parity with teachers.

Honestly, you couldn't make it up. They get 3 months off per year, then complain that they might have to take unpaid leave while they're doing nothing.

"It's just not fair....."

But it quite clearly isn't fair. As I said in an earlier post if the rest of the public service get an extra two weeks holidays to make up for a reduction in salary then the teachers should get it too. How many days holidays a teacher has is not relevant to this scenario at all - the point is it's unpaid leave not a pay cut. Therefore there has to be extra leave given.

I'm not in the public service

danman

I'd like to clarify, My "It's just not fair" statement was meant to represent the teachers attitude towards this.

By the way, I'm not public sector, but my wife is a teacher.

dublin.caucus

danman wrote: »

But the point still stands.

It's grossly unfair to other members of the puplic sector, that one branch gets 3 months off, while the rest of them struggle on.

In the same way, it is grossly unfair that some people get paid more than others, some people work in better offices, etc, etc. I think it is deeply unfair that a consultant gets paid at least 10 times what I earn. I'm sure that fire men think it unfair that they need to worry about about being burnt alive in their work, whilst civil servants don't, and Guards think it unfair they have to work at night. But those are the terms and conditions of the job when people sign up for them. If the holidays are so good, do the H Dip.


To single them out for a pay-cut with no accompanying leave is to unfairly target them. To talk of their pre-existing holidays is to engage in distraction.

Qs

dublin.caucus wrote: »

Now, when I left secondary school I knew more or less how much teachers earned, their hours and their holidays. I decided against that career. I'm guessing most people complaining about teachers here did the same. But that is an aside. With regard to your point about fairness, what is being proposed is patently un- fair.

Thats like saying when I left school I had a fair idea what architects earned and its now completely unfair that most of them are either earning alot less or completely out of work. Oh its unfair. Yeah, life iss unfair sometimes. Tough luck.

Anthony16

the teachers are a disgrace.Good wage,loads of days off,finish at 4 and a fine pension and yet they are complaining.A disaster for the irish tax payers.

danman

But to want parity with other workers in regard to unpaid holidays, while they enjoy disproportionate holidays doesn't show them in a very good light.

Like I've said, my wife is a teacher.
During the Summer, she suppliments her earnings with private work. she does it for the enjoyment of it and the money doesn't go amiss.

Most good teachers find it easy to get private work. Their reputation stands for them. My wife has said, she would be quite happy to take this unpaid leave during the holidays.

The point being, good teachers want to teach. They will not want to take this unpaid leave during school time. The fact that so many teachers are even complaining about this shows the attitude of those teachers.

Anthony16

dublin.caucus wrote: »

In the same way, it is grossly unfair that some people get paid more than others, some people work in better offices, etc, etc. I think it is deeply unfair that a consultant gets paid at least 10 times what I earn. I'm sure that fire men think it unfair that they need to worry about about being burnt alive in their work, whilst civil servants don't, and Guards think it unfair they have to work at night. But those are the terms and conditions of the job when people sign up for them. If the holidays are so good, do the H Dip.


To single them out for a pay-cut with no accompanying leave is to unfairly target them. To talk of their pre-existing holidays is to engage in distraction.

Consultants deserve the money they get.They have spend years and years training and everyone needs them as they do a great job

dublin.caucus

Qs wrote: »

Thats like saying when I left school I had a fair idea what architects earned and its now completely unfair that most of them are either earning alot less or completely out of work. Oh its unfair. Yeah, life iss unfair sometimes. Tough luck.

Yeah life is unfair. Well noted. Presuming you had your eyes open, you would also have known that architects generally work in the private sector and are subject to the market, while teachers are public sector workers with more or less a 100% job security.

I always wonder at the level of hostility to teachers out there. Sure, like all jobs, a fair whack of people doing it are crap, incompetent and don't really care. But why subject them to a pay cut and no-one else?

dublin.caucus

danman wrote: »

The point being, good teachers want to teach. They will not want to take this unpaid leave during school time. The fact that so many teachers are even complaining about this shows the attitude of those teachers.

I don't doubt you. However, why single them out for a pay-cut as you propose? And if we are going to single teachers out for a pay-cut, why not engage in the whole debate honestly, and negotiate some real reforms. Which is what is needed in the public sector - not this sticking plaster approach, because we are going to be in a worse position next year, looking for more public expenditure 'savings' and this will be up for renegotiation.