Over 250 NUIM Students DELIVER A Petition Against 'Professor' Ahern

LeixlipRed

The only think that matters here is that a man who I am entirely convinced used the office of the Taoiseach, office of Finance Minister and membership of Dail Eireann to do nothing but pocket backhanders and prolong the life of a right wing government. That same government when given the opportunity would see us all homeless for profits and extending their vice like grip on the idiots and apathetic fools that make up their voter base.

Fianna Fail represents none of us. Not one single one of us. If anyone cannot see why this man is not wanted here, or anywhere for that matter then they're just disagreeing for the sake of it. This rubbish about impacting on students education is a tenuous point at best. What has this man done for this country? Nothing. Not a single thing.

Joe1919

I am not criticizing free speech. But this was slightly different in that some of the petitioners came into the lecture room I was in to campaign and seek signatures. I don't think petitioners should be allowed campaign by entering lectures halls and interrupting lectures.(even if the lecture is only beginning) I have an objection to this.

The reference to the 'picket lines on the 24th' and that 'people can actually just support each other' (PE) seems to imply that some comparison can be made between these two actions. However, ICTU claims theirs to be an official action, which had some democratic mandate whereas yours was an unofficial action and had no democratic mandate.
Secondly, some of the earlier posters were claiming that 'an excellent day for student democracy' and I challenged this, in that there is a democratic system in the form of the students union in place and I suggested that this could have been used.

This particular board (forum) is public and if people want to congratulate themselves on a public notice board for a political action, then they should not object to getting a little criticism. That's free speech.
(However, the butting lectures halls while lectures are preceding is as different story. Are lecture hall public places?)

Finally, we have to have accountability with campaigners as well as politicians. If people are going to campaign, they have to be prepared to stand up and account for their actions. The onus is on them to explain their actions and defend their views, especially if the butt into my lecture and I have to listen to them.

PS I dont have a particular agena. I said my piece and will say no more(perhaps until the next time someone butts into a lecture I'm in.)

Kiwi_knock

Joe, you make valid points but I still do not agree with you. And for the butting in of lectures, most of them took place on lecturers requests, I had people talk in a few of my lectures but I know firsthand that they were invited there by the lecturers themselves because as you know there are quite a few lecturers protesting this appointment as well

Joe1919

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

....And for the butting in of lectures, most of them took place on lecturers requests, I had people talk in a few of my lectures but I know firsthand that they were invited there by the lecturers themselves because as you know there are quite a few lecturers protesting this appointment as well

Look, I need argue no further. You admit that that the students were (to some extent) manipulated by the lecturers.

irish_goat

LeixlipRed wrote: »

What has this man done for this country? Nothing. Not a single thing.

He brought the GFA and Nice Treaty in (those things he's here to lecture about).

Teabag!

irish_goat wrote: »

He brought the GFA and Nice Treaty in (those things he's here to lecture about).

Not by himself he didnt....

Gerry Adams, Martin Mcguinness, David Trimble, John Hume Tony Blair, all played significant parts in the GFA.

Nice- you said no so lets do it again...... (where have we seen this before):rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I reckon if bertie can solve the conlicts that he has created through his running of the country, then he should become a prof of conflict resolution, up until such time he should stay away......

irish_goat

Where did I say he did it by himself?

PrivateEye

Well it looks as if the academics got in well ahead with their petition. (June 12)

God, I told you in a post already we (FEE) were the first off the ball, I even posted up the paper. Heres a link:


http://www.dublinpeople.com/content/view/1816/57/

April (Before June)

a group such as yours

Great generalisation there. Everyone who marched must now pick a hat. You can have a FEE hat, a Labour Hat, a Socialist Party Hat....pick wisely.

I may as well just leak the whole membership list now, if you can spot them a mile off. Everyone who ever questioned Bertie Ahern, or even came along to observe other people hand in a petition, is actually a member of FEE *and* the Socialist Party *and* Labour Youth *and* The Anti-Bertie Bandwagon.

(those things he's here to lecture about).

he's here to recieve an Honorary Adjunct Professorship. He could give a guest talk on Northern Irelands peace process, and contribute to a working group, without the Honorary Adjunct Professorship. Maynooth staff don't seem to really want this gombeen Eff-Effer as a 'Collegue', even on paper.

You admit that that the students were (to some extent) manipulated by the lecturers.

Get over this, please. You read the Examiner. These were two seperate iniatives. Staff attended the student petition hand-over, but they weren't hiding invisible wires and moving our arms about.

---

Personally;

1) I still cant believe the media response to this. Even today I was taking calls from sources as diverse as national radio, Kildare FM, and DCU FM. A few emails to get back to, the aim should be to keep this going and get right back to them once Bertie DOES get his Professorship/ do his lecture with a statement.

2) I was out in UCD recently and it struck me that NUI Maynooth actually has NO Fianna Fail presence whatsoever. Whens the last time you seen a Fianna Fail Yoof poster up on campus? Bloody brilliant. One journo asked me of the phone if they exist in NUI Maynooth and what their stance is. They're alive in the way a 98 year old man in a coma is alive.

In other Universities people are normally quick enough to proclaim themselves Fianna Fail, in ours I can't even spot a noticeboard.

3) I refuse to go on the defensive on this one. Over 1,200 students and 40 members of academic staff (50 could be a better figurebetween the letter and the petition, we got a good few signatures from staff and while I haven't seen the original 36 list, I know for a fact some of ours are ne) have spoken, if you disagree- great, but not one of us have to explain ourselves.

---

Joe1919

PrivateEye wrote: »

Personally;

1) I still cant believe the media response to this. Even today I was taking calls from sources as diverse as national radio, Kildare FM, and DCU FM. A few emails to get back to, the aim should be to keep this going and get right back to them once Bertie DOES get his Professorship/ do his lecture with a statement.

2) I was out in UCD recently and it struck me that NUI Maynooth actually has NO Fianna Fail presence whatsoever. Whens the last time you seen a Fianna Fail Yoof poster up on campus? Bloody brilliant. One journo asked me of the phone if they exist in NUI Maynooth and what their stance is. They're alive in the way a 98 year old man in a coma is alive.

In other Universities people are normally quick enough to proclaim themselves Fianna Fail, in ours I can't even spot a noticeboard.

3) I refuse to go on the defensive on this one. Over 1,200 students and 40 members of academic staff (50 could be a better figurebetween the letter and the petition, we got a good few signatures from staff and while I haven't seen the original 36 list, I know for a fact some of ours are ne) have spoken, if you disagree- great, but not one of us have to explain ourselves.

---

I am frightened by you.

1) You are motivated and driven by the media.
2) You have no opposition
3) You have no need to explain yourself.

Your supporters acted like storm troopers taking over lecture halls.

God help Ireland.

PrivateEye

God help Ireland.

:rolleyes: Bit dramatic really.

You have no need to explain yourself.

We've made our case perfectly clear, as have the lecturers. People trying to put us on the defensive and claim we're undemocratic aren't listening. I won't go on the defensive over a campaign that, official or otherwise, has so far seen a large amount of Maynooth students voice their opinion on a matter like this on campus for the first time. Its been brilliant.

We've made our arguements, you're more than welcome to disagree,but insiting we were "manipulated" by staff is nonsense.

You have no opposition

I was observing that there's essentially no Fianna Fail in NUIM. Not my fault really. I'd argue that their senior party and its failure to govern properly/keep its hands out of the national biccie-jar are to blame here.

You are motivated and driven by the media.

Yeah, no. I've spent years of my life in grassroots politics and small campaigns because I love getting my face in the paper.

I'm not saying that - we would have delivered the petition in such a manner regardless. I merely said I am amazed at the media reaction- which I am. This offers good opportunities for the campaign.
If there are careerist types on campus motivated and driven by flashy cameras, I don't think they'd be hanging around the left

Your supporters acted like storm troopers taking over lecture halls.

I love this image, thanks.

I am frightened by you.

Ditto mate, ditto.

koHd

I vote Joe. Agree with everything this guy has said. Thank you for making my post much shorter than it would have been, Joe.

Joe1919

PrivateEye wrote: »

:rolleyes: Bit dramatic really.

If there are careerist types on campus motivated and driven by flashy cameras, I don't think they'd be hanging around the left

But your not left, are you? You are right, very far right.

PrivateEye

But your not left, are you? You are right, very far right.

Brilliant.



I also enjoyed your use of the word "tyrannical", and the part where you said our 'supporters' were like "stormtroopers"

Joe1919

PrivateEye wrote: »

Brilliant.

I also enjoyed your use of the word "tyrannical", and the part where you said our 'supporters' were like "stormtroopers"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant

But you are behaving like a tyrant. You have set yourself up in a position of power without any vote or qualification. You are trying to impose your political view on the whole university.

You have shown intolerance towards the former head of our country, who at least was elected, which you are not. You are also shown intolerance toward anyone who has respect for the democratic system and the leaders that we select. You have resorted to name calling, calling Bertie a 'gombeen Eff-Effer'. You have deliberately steered clear of any democratic means such as the students union.

Your supporters have behaved like storm-troopers in barging into a lecture (uninvited) that I was attending, catching the lecturer off guard.

TheeItcha

Joe1919 wrote: »

Since when was 1200 signatures out of 8000 a great day for democracy?

1200 signatures gathered in a relatively short space of time demonstrates a profound opposition to the honouring of Bertie Ahern by students attending NUIM. Democracy works as democracy does, and as Banquo pointed out it is almost equal to the amount of people who voted in the student elections, it knocked the figures for the first year rep out of the park, and is much larger than any society or political organisation on campus. And further on this, 1200 signatures attained from this years student body is much more democratic than sitting on Union Council Ex-Officio.

Joe1919 wrote: »

Guys, you're blowing your own trumpets. 1200 signatures out of 8,000 or so. 250 students in demo. About 3%. Pathetic. I was at a lecture today (yesterday) and some guys rudely came in and interrupted looking for signatures. They left a sheet. No one signed. I also believe the students union have nothing to do with this but you can please confirm.

First and foremost we are not blowing our own trumpets, we are simply remarking upon the importance of Maynooth students making their voices heard on such a controversial issue. 250 students voting with their feet is a significant number whatever way you want ot look at it. Your pathetic attempts to delegitimise the demonstration made by Maynooth students against the honouring of such a controversial character in their name do not hold any weight. As for the point of looking for signature within class, this was not done at random as you have presented, at any time that petitions have been passed around class halls have been at the permission of the lecturer.
As for the final part of that paragraph, snear if you wih, but a part of me feels that if a petition was passed around your class it was most definitly signed.

Joe1919 wrote: »

Is this a personal campaign? If it is, it a shame.
Whats the issue here? Be honest. If its cutbacks it should be directed at minister of education? Who do these self elected demostrators represent.? They dont have a majority. They dont represent me or many other students. I presume if this was a genuine protest about student cutbacks, the student union would be involved.
Let me know about this. Perhaps I am wrong.

Numerous inaacuracies here. First of all no this is not a personal campaign, this is a political and student campaign.
Second of all the issues here are many. First and foremost concerns the Tribunal and the serious unanswered questions hanging over the head of Bertie Ahern. Second of all the issues in opposition to cutbacks are most definitly relevent in regards to Ahern, as he is still implicit in a government that is forcing through vicious cutbacks upon education of all levels, particulary third level, while in the meantime raising the Student Levy.
Its a shame that the students union were not present at the demo, surely it makes no sense that when the student body have to a large degree rejected the honouring for so many reasons they should be representing their students interests.

Joe1919 wrote: »

The Irish Examiner has an interesting view on this.
I hope the students are not been used by well paid academics?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/ryle-dwyer/did-highly-paid-academics-object-because-bertie-would-do-it-for-free-106571.html

Lazy journalism with numerous inaccuracies, We responded to the paper by they obviously dont believe in the right to reply.

Joe1919 wrote: »

I am not criticizing free speech. But this was slightly different in that some of the petitioners came into the lecture room I was in to campaign and seek signatures. I don't think petitioners should be allowed campaign by entering lectures halls and interrupting lectures.(even if the lecture is only beginning) I have an objection to this.

The reference to the 'picket lines on the 24th' and that 'people can actually just support each other' (PE) seems to imply that some comparison can be made between these two actions. However, ICTU claims theirs to be an official action, which had some democratic mandate whereas yours was an unofficial action and had no democratic mandate.
Secondly, some of the earlier posters were claiming that 'an excellent day for student democracy' and I challenged this, in that there is a democratic system in the form of the students union in place and I suggested that this could have been used.

Our mandate was 1200 signatures, and 250 people marching, thats a larger mandate than holding a seat Ex-Officio.


Finally, we have to have accountability with campaigners as well as politicians. If people are going to campaign, they have to be prepared to stand up and account for their actions. The onus is on them to explain their actions and defend their views, especially if the butt into my lecture and I have to listen to them.

PS I dont have a particular agena. I said my piece and will say no more(perhaps until the next time someone butts into a lecture I'm in.)[/quote]

We have explained our actions on numerous occasions and quite clearly. Indeed if you read the petition it is even on there.
P.S You have no agenda, I believe you.

TheeItcha

PrivateEye wrote: »

I think TheeItcha is the lucky man doing Spin 103.8 in the morning, good luck. Loads of political Beyonce fans cant wait to hear our news.

Dry. :rolleyes:

TheeItcha

Joe1919 wrote: »

Look, I need argue no further. You admit that that the students were (to some extent) manipulated by the lecturers.

The poster you quoted has stated in this thread that he or she is not involved with FEE but went along on the demo as they felt it was a student issue.

For the record, this campaign was in no way either organised or manipulated by staff, this was from start to finish a student iniative. Staff did show support and solidarity towards the end, but the letter by the staffa and the petition by the students came from two very different sources.

Joe1919

TheeItcha wrote: »

1200 signatures gathered in a relatively short space of time demonstrates a profound opposition to the honouring of Bertie Ahern by students attending NUIM. Democracy works as democracy does, and as Banquo pointed out it is almost equal to the amount of people who voted in the student elections, it knocked the figures for the first year rep out of the park, and is much larger than any society or political organisation on campus. And further on this, 1200 signatures attained from this years student body is much more democratic than sitting on Union Council Ex-Officio.

F.

PrivateEye wrote: »

We started our campaign before the lecturers letter at the end of the last academic year (see image 1 below, notice the date - then read The Irish Times frontpage article from last week). The article in the Examiner actually seems to suggest they are "behind" the petition, which is a joke. We had the first 300/400 signatures before any staff even knew about it, at which point plenty of them signed it. The two iniatives are seperate, despite what The Irish Examiner (Who did a great job of copy-pasting The Irish Times, who made contact with us to establish the two 'protests' were seperate from one another)

Look, who telling lies.Can you not see the contradiction. Which of you are telling lies?

TheeItcha

Joe1919 wrote: »

Look, who telling lies.Can you not see the contradiction. Which of you are telling lies?

There are neither lies or contradictions between either of those two posts.

Joe1919

TheeItcha wrote: »

There are neither lies or contradictions between either of those two posts.

Listen, TheeItcha is trying to say to create an impression that this campaign was fought over a 'short space of time' whereas PrivateEye states that 'We started our campaign before the lecturers letter at the end of the last academic year'.
Who are you fooling?
Ps I'm off to bed.

TheeItcha

Joe1919 wrote: »

Listen, TheeItcha is trying to say to create an impression that this campaign was fought over a 'short space of time' whereas PrivateEye states that 'We started our campaign before the lecturers letter at the end of the last academic year'.
Who are you fooling?
Ps I'm off to bed.

The only lier here is you. This campaign has been a long one, starting in the last academic year, I said that the amount of signatures we gathered was done in a relatively short space of time. Do not try to either twist or manipulate what I say. It will not work.

folan

joe, you seem very sure of yourself?

Did you get a group to oppose?

Joe1919

folan wrote: »

joe, you seem very sure of yourself?

Did you get a group to oppose?

As I have already stated, I am not part of any group. I am just an 'innocent bystander' who values his freedom.

banquo

Jou1919 wrote:

This particular board (forum) is public and if people want to congratulate themselves on a public notice board for a political action, then they should not object to getting a little criticism. That's free speech.

Sensible.

Joe1919 wrote:

But you are behaving like a tyrant. You have set yourself up in a position of power without any vote or qualification. You are trying to impose your political view on the whole university.

Not sensible.

Joe1919 wrote:

Your supporters acted like storm troopers taking over lecture halls.

...


Dude, an opinion is one thing. You disagree with the petition, that's fine. But - and I don't want to go down the road of attacking other posters, but it has to be said - you're trolling.

1. Nobody was forced to sign the petition.
2. Nobody was forced to deliver the petition.
3. No lecture was 'stormed'
4. You simultaenously belittle the events as insignificant, yet give the people who organised them the ethos of 'tyrants' (I think you mean oligarchy, if anything).
5. You call 'LIES!' where none exists
6. You call 'Truth!', when you misrepresent it.

I'm still happy to call anyone who disagrees with me/us on this my friend. I mean, theirs (and I include Effluo in this! ) is a perfectly valid point of view. But cut the bull****. In fairness.

Seren_

Joe1919 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant

But you are behaving like a tyrant. You have set yourself up in a position of power without any vote or qualification. You are trying to impose your political view on the whole university.

You have shown intolerance towards the former head of our country, who at least was elected, which you are not. You are also shown intolerance toward anyone who has respect for the democratic system and the leaders that we select. You have resorted to name calling, calling Bertie a 'gombeen Eff-Effer'. You have deliberately steered clear of any democratic means such as the students union.

Your supporters have behaved like storm-troopers in barging into a lecture (uninvited) that I was attending, catching the lecturer off guard.

Sorry, but this post made me laugh. Who says that you have to be elected to do something to make the university a better place? The people who are currently elected by the student body sure as hell aren't doing much, unless you count getting X Factor rejects to perform for us as such a step (I don't mean that as a slander on the entire SU, I know some of them do want to change things)

I agree that Bertie Ahern doesn't deserve to get a honourary professorship here after all he has done in the past (and indeed is still doing). I don't need somebody who has been elected by a minority amount of students to tell me what to think or what to do, I can do that myself.

The people who arranged the petition and the events on Wednesday were standing up for the rights of the students on this campus to have a say in what direction this university goes in. Personally, I admire them for it. That's just my opinion though.

clikityclak

Joe1919 wrote: »

As I have already stated, I am not part of any group. I am just an 'innocent bystander' who values his freedom.

Surely then you respect right of NUIM students who as members of an institution (remember that €1500 registration we all had to pay in september) have the right to oppose orcommend the way it is run and that should include honourery staff appointments. No one was forced to sign the petition and it wasn't shoved in anyone's face. If members of the law department wanted to show their support for 'professor' Ahern they had/have every opportunity to do so. Just because there a students on campus willing to get up and do something about this appointment and make some noise about it, isn't intruding on any other students freedom within the university. It's level playing field and the right to free speech is, thankfully , still available to all NUIM students.

hypersquirrel

Joe1919 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant

But you are behaving like a tyrant. You have set yourself up in a position of power without any vote or qualification. You are trying to impose your political view on the whole university.

You have shown intolerance towards the former head of our country, who at least was elected, which you are not. You are also shown intolerance toward anyone who has respect for the democratic system and the leaders that we select. You have resorted to name calling, calling Bertie a 'gombeen Eff-Effer'. You have deliberately steered clear of any democratic means such as the students union.

Your supporters have behaved like storm-troopers in barging into a lecture (uninvited) that I was attending, catching the lecturer off guard.

I'm all for having Bertie speak on campus. Having done my thesis on conflict resolution I think he is certainly qualified to give guest lectures and a valuable insight into the topic. Honestly I tend to question FEE on almost everything they do but this is just taking a bit far. If he is a tyrant then so is Martin Luther King, so are the suffragettes, in fact anybody who has ever protested is pretty much a tyrant. Student activism has been dying a slow death and even though I most certainly do not see eye to eye with FEE here I think what they are doing is great. If you have a problem and you think that they aren't representing the student body then sort your own petition to allow Bertie to lecture with the professorship.... but shoot... that would make you a tyrant.

TheeItcha

Joe1919 wrote: »

As I have already stated, I am not part of any group. I am just an 'innocent bystander' who values his freedom.

Of course you are completely objective in this matter and would have no subjective interest in knocking the march at all.

Just another question, is your degree in spin doctoring by any chance?

Cool_CM

TheeItcha wrote: »

Just another question, is your degree in spin doctoring by any chance?

Does Alastair Cambell lecture there too?:D
Amazing what can happen to a university in a few months!

PrivateEye

Herald AM Morning Poll, only seen it today and nearly had a heart attack

DOES BERTIE AHERN DESERVE AN HONORARY PROFESSORSHIP FROM NUI MAYNOOTH?

YES: 6%
NO: 94%