GOP Nominee for 2012, the list gets shorter

Pocono Joe

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Romney is part of a formerly racist organisation, for one.

I',m confused... I thought he was a Republican, not a Democrat.

Flamed Diving

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I',m confused... I thought he was a Republican, not a Democrat.

The Church of Mormon.

Pocono Joe

Flamed Diving wrote: »

The Church of Mormon.

Ahhh... the other “formerly racist organization.” Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Flamed Diving

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Ahhh... the other “formerly racist organization.” Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Which Romney was a part of while he was still an adult, before they changed. I'm robbing this from Chris Hitchens, but it is a good point.

Overheal

Flamed Diving wrote: »

The Church of Mormon.

Flamed Diving

Following the death of Joseph Smith, Jr. and the succession crisis, leaders of the major Latter Day Saint movement denomination, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, continued to welcome all people regardless of color to be members; however, they began to exclude most people of black African descent (regardless of actual skin color) from Priesthood ordination and from participation in temple ceremonies. These practices continued until September 30, 1978, when church President Spencer W. Kimball, acting in his office as Living Prophet declared that in early June 1978 he had received a revelation from God to extend the priesthood and temple ordinances to all worthy male members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_and_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

To Whom It May Concern:
On September 30, 1978, at the 148th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church:
In early June of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Spencer W. Kimball extending priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church. President Kimball has asked that I advise the conference that after he had received this revelation, which came to him after extended meditation and prayer in the sacred rooms of the holy temple, he presented it to his counselors, who accepted it and approved it. It was then presented to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who unanimously approved it, and was subsequently presented to all other General Authorities, who likewise approved it unanimously.

President Kimball has asked that I now read this letter:
June 8, 1978

To all general and local priesthood officers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world:

Dear Brethren:
As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessings which the gospel affords.
Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.
He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple. Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color. (up until this date, black members were not allowed to become priests) Priesthood leaders are instructed to follow the policy of carefully interviewing all candidates for ordination to either the Aaronic or the Melchizedek Priesthood to insure that they meet the established standards for worthiness.
We declare with soberness that the Lord has now made known his will for the blessing of all his children throughout the earth who will hearken to the voice of his authorized servants, and prepare themselves to receive every blessing of the gospel.
Sincerely yours,

Spencer W. Kimball
N. Eldon Tanner
Marion G. Romney

The First Presidency
Recognizing Spencer W. Kimball as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it is proposed that we as a constituent assembly accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord. All in favor please signify by raising your right hand. Any opposed by the same sign.
The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous in the affirmative.
Salt Lake City, Utah, September 30, 1978.
The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

My addition in brackets.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/od/2

Oh dear, oh dear...

Overheal

Actually I was referring to you calling it the Church of Mormon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Flamed Diving

Overheal wrote: »

Actually I was referring to you calling it the Church of Mormon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

That the best you got? And that picture. How childish...

Scofflaw

This all looks a bit AH now, what with the squabbling, the facepalm picture and all...

moderately,
Scofflaw

Overheal

Flamed Diving wrote: »

That the best you got? And that picture. How childish...

Im not fighting with you or even disagreeing with you except to say calling it the Church of Mormon really deflates your credibility.

Flamed Diving

Overheal wrote: »

Im not fighting with you or even disagreeing with you except to say calling it the Church of Mormon really deflates your credibility.

Well, if calling it the Church of Mormon deflates my credibility, what on earth does putting up that picture do?







P.S. I'm not denying the official title is LDS, but the CoM title appears to be out there in the popular conciousness, it seems you have 3.8m facepalms to distribute, lest people not realise how inaccurate their lives are.

norbert64

not meaning to get caught up in all the fun, but isn't Romney generally rather private about his Mormonism/faith so the point is m00t, no?

Sure, he'll throw a bone to the fundies on hot button issues, but when it comes to actual Governance, he seems to be a strict businessman.
Heck, a McCain/Romney ticket last year, may well have given Obama a better run for his money.

Flamed Diving

norbert64 wrote: »

not meaning to get caught up in all the fun, but isn't Romney generally rather private about his Mormonism/faith so the point is m00t, no?

Sure, he'll throw a bone to the fundies on hot button issues, but when it comes to actual Governance, he seems to be a strict businessman.
Heck, a McCain/Romney ticket last year, may well have given Obama a better run for his money.

Yeah, but given that he was an adult member of a racist organisation I would imagine that these type of "private feelings" would be tricky to keep as such.

Pocono Joe

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Yeah, but given that he was an adult member of a racist organisation I would imagine that these type of "private feelings" would be tricky to keep as such.

Similar insipid type of things were said about John F Kennedy and his Catholicism when he ran for POTUS. As we found out, it didn’t matter back then either.

Flamed Diving

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Similar insipid type of things were said about John F Kennedy and his Catholicism when he ran for POTUS. As we found out, it didn’t matter back then either.

And if it wouldn't matter now, then he has nothing to fear. But as it stands, he was a member of a racist organisation, as an adult. He should account for this.

Pocono Joe

Just curious FD... does it bother you that Robert Byrd is third in the line of succession to the Presidency after Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi?

Flamed Diving

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Just curious FD... does it bother you that Robert Byrd is third in the line of succession to the Presidency after Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi?

I can't sleep at night, Joe. However,

P(A) = P1*P2*P3

P(A) = Event that all three will die within one year.
P1 = Prob of 67-year old (Biden) dying within one year.
P2 = Prob of 69 ...
P3 = Prob of 48 ...

= 0.020735*0.024826*0.004809 = 0.00000247551503199 in 1. According to:

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html#fn1

it would appear that the odds of this guy taking the reins are pretty low. Plus he appears to have (publically) regretted his actions back then. If Romney came out and admitted the same, what more could you ask?

Nodin

I have to say I agree with Joe, (dirty as that makes me feel). Can't be bashing the man because of the nutty or past elements of his church. He can only be hung by his own rope.

Flamed Diving

Nodin wrote: »

I have to say I agree with Joe, (dirty as that makes me feel). Can't be bashing the man because of the nutty or past elements of his church. He can only be hung by his own rope.

This wasn't down to the "nutty elements" of his church, so perhaps you can cease attempting to cheapen the seriousness of this issue with apologist rhetoric. The racist policies of the LDS were effectively written into their very constitution of their church and not the "fringe elements" of an otherwise upstanding organisation. As you can see below, the tides were beginning to change around Romney's time, but they didn't come to pass until 1977. Was Romney a vocal opponent of these racist policies at the time? Is there any record of this? What has he to say of this era now? Does he condemn his former leaders publically?

In 1954, Church President David O. McKay taught: "There is not now, and there never has been a doctrine in this church that the negroes are under a divine curse. There is no doctrine in the church of any kind pertaining to the negro. We believe that we have a scriptural precedent for withholding the priesthood from the negro. It is a practice, not a doctrine, and the practice someday will be changed. And that's all there is to it.’

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints#Racial_policy_1951-1977

JOSEPH FIELDING SMITH
Doctrines of Salvation, pp. 65-66.
There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits.

pg. 61.

There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.

Juvenile Instructor, vol. 26, p. 635

It is very clear that the mark which was set upon the descendants of Cain was a skin of blackness...It has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom His blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extent as to excite the comments of all who have known them.

Nodin

Flamed Diving wrote: »

This wasn't down to the "nutty elements" of his church, so perhaps you can cease attempting to cheapen the seriousness of this issue with apologist rhetoric.

I hate it when people can't even read the post when its on the same page, I really do.

because of the nutty or past elements of his church

Flamed Diving wrote: »

The racist (.....)see below,

....didn't think I needed a lecture on the LDS either.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

the tides were beginning to change around Romney's time, but they didn't come to pass until 1977. Was Romney a vocal opponent of these racist policies at the time? Is there any record of this? What has he to say of this era now? Does he condemn his former leaders publically?

Wouldn't all that come under

He can only be hung by his own rope.

kenco

Romneys religion was an issue last time around (but not the deciding factor) and will be less of a one in 2012. Its going to be him or Bobby Jindal as the GOP have to put up some one who is not a loon to have any chance at all (bye bye Huckabee, Palin, etc)

Unless the find and Obama like candidate who catches fire in 2010 they are looking at earliest 2018 before they can contemplate getting back in the White House and that maybe a very long shot unless its Jindal...

Flamed Diving

Nodin, you should qualify your statement with:

nutty and past elements of his church, during which time he was an adult member capable of understanding the fact that his church was racist and seemingly failed to publically criticise them...

There, that's better. We live in a free society, as does he. People can ask questions.

Pocono Joe

Flamed Diving wrote: »

it would appear that the odds of this guy taking the reins are pretty low. Plus he appears to have (publically) regretted his actions back then. If Romney came out and admitted the same, what more could you ask?

Here you go. According to your post this should be acceptable to you (but I won’t hold my breath). From the article:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints banned black people from the priesthood -- to which all devout Mormon men are ordained -- until 1978.

Since then, the church has actively battled perceptions it is racist and sought converts in Africa.

Romney's campaign pointed to the candidate's comment last week about his reaction three decades ago upon hearing the policy had changed.
"I pulled over to the side of the road and literally broke down. It was so important to me to see that change in my church," Romney, 60, told NBC.

He also said his father marched for civil rights with the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

http://qconline.com/archives/qco/display.php?id=337738

And Nodin... thanks, I think.

jank

So are we in agreement that Mitt Romney is the frontrunner?

Pocono Joe

jank wrote: »

So are we in agreement that Mitt Romney is the frontrunner?

A bit hard to tell. Although he might be the best candidate at the current time to lead us out of the economic ruin our current administration will have us in by 2012, the question might be... will he want to deal with all the vast problems ahead of him by then?

Overheal

you could just vote nader.

If everyone had voted for nader bush would have only got a 1st term. But NOOOO. You had to waste your votes on Kerry. Shame on yous.

/silly rant

Black Swan

Republican Gov Mitt Romney's health care reform in MA is cited below. Would he try to do the same if elected president in 2012?

"On April 12, 2006, Romney signed legislation to provide health insurance to virtually all citizens of Massachusetts without raising taxes... Starting in July 2007, health insurance will be mandatory for all state residents... Individuals who can afford health coverage but chose not to purchase a policy will now be required by law to acquire insurance. Failure to purchase health insurance if an affordable policy is available would result in tax penalties." Huh? Romney is using his law to force citizens to buy into his health care plan or suffer tax consequences?

"Lower income individuals will be eligible for subsidies to purchase health insurance." A move towards socialised medicine starting at the bottom of the income ladder?

"The new Massachusetts health care legislation establishes a system to provide citizens with private, affordable, market based insurance." Will this encourage the private-sector-for-profit health insurance corporations, and the AMA to endorse and contribute financially to Romney for president?

"A sliding scale based on income is used to determine the amount of money a person contributes to their policy. The higher the income, the higher the premium." Is Romney taxing the rich to support the poor in his MA health care legislation? Wait a minute, is he a Democrat in Republican clothing?

Source: http://www.quickoverview.com/election2008/mitt-romney-overview.html

Geeeeeeeeee, if you substitute the name Romney in each case with Obama, I wonder if it would make any difference in terms of how this health care reform was perceived by Republicans or Democrats?


...

Pocono Joe

I think the big difference in the heath care matter was that Romney, as governor of Massachusetts, enacted something that was representative of the will of the people of his state (which I believe is over a 3 to 1 ratio of Democrat over Republican). And Obama is trying to meet the wishes of his liberal base and not the will of the people of the United States, evident by the Pew Research latest finding that only 35% of the population favors the Obama/Democrat health care plan.

Trouser_Press

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Obama is trying to meet the wishes of his liberal base and not the will of the people of the United States

Do you mean the people of the United States who overwhelmingly elected him? Or is that slice of democracy a touch uncomfortable for you? Do you prefer the Iranian model?

Trouser_Press

Pocono Joe wrote:

Here you go. According to your post this should be acceptable to you (but I won’t hold my breath). From the article:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints banned black people from the priesthood -- to which all devout Mormon men are ordained -- until 1978.

Since then, the church has actively battled perceptions it is racist and sought converts in Africa.

Romney's campaign pointed to the candidate's comment last week about his reaction three decades ago upon hearing the policy had changed.
"I pulled over to the side of the road and literally broke down. It was so important to me to see that change in my church," Romney, 60, told NBC.

He also said his father marched for civil rights with the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

Romney and his faith are absurd jokes. Decades went by before he wept at the roadside over his Church's racism. He's a toerag.

Find the time to read:

No Man Knows My History

Under the Banner of Heaven

And then, we'll say no more :rolleyes: