The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread

Son Of A Vidic

Gronkastic wrote: »

Nothing, afaik. I maybe be wrong though.

The guy spent 5 years in jail for nothing, the liar who put him away should also serve 5 years imo.

Masked Man

Jason Hanson retired after 21 years. I know special team players don't really make HOF but it's complete crap if neither him or Vinatieri make it.

Hazys

Masked Man wrote: »

Jason Hanson retired after 21 years. I know special team players don't really make HOF but it's complete crap if neither him or Vinatieri make it.

I'd say Vinatieri will, he has 4 Superbowl rings and he played a major part in his teams earning all of them.

Hanson won't and i don't think he should even be close. He was above average kicker, he's greatest strength was his longevity not his overall talent.

matthew8

I wouldn't have either in. Only pure kicker I would have in the hall of fame would be Pete Gogolak because he changed the game. To be a hall of famer you should have to be a truly special player at your position and at the kicker position there's really not much to do to distinguish yourself. If there was they'd be paid more. Apart from Vinatieri's 45 yarder against the Raiders, these clutch kicks weren't particularly hard. Infact I think it's absurd how much credit he gets for the SB win in 2003 considering he missed a 31 yarder and had a 36 yarder blocked

Lionbacker

Hazys wrote: »

Hanson won't and i don't think he should even be close. He was above average kicker, he's greatest strength was his longevity not his overall talent.

Whether or nor he gets into the HOF, I think he should at least be considered it, if just for the number of NFL records he currently holds which include; most 50 yard FG's, most overtime winning FG's, most seasons with one team & most games with one team. Also he is 3rd leading all time scorer in the NFL behing the two Andersons.
Granted some of theose records can be contributed to his longevity, but at least he was able to continue kicking at such a high level for so long without falling off a cliff such as Crosby & Akers last season.

On a side-note I read that the Lions have only had 2 kickers since 1980! Eddie Murray from 1980-1991 & than Hanson ever since.
Obviously now need a new kicker for next season though.

Son Of A Vidic

I have no doubt Vinatieri will be inducted into the HOF some day and deservingly so. Football is a team game and it's high time that excellence in all postions was given its due credit.

davyjose

matthew8 wrote: »

I wouldn't have either in. Only pure kicker I would have in the hall of fame would be Pete Gogolak because he changed the game. To be a hall of famer you should have to be a truly special player at your position and at the kicker position there's really not much to do to distinguish yourself. If there was they'd be paid more. Apart from Vinatieri's 45 yarder against the Raiders, these clutch kicks weren't particularly hard. Infact I think it's absurd how much credit he gets for the SB win in 2003 considering he missed a 31 yarder and had a 36 yarder blocked

Does that mean we start counting picks against QB's, and dropped passes against WR's? Fair is fair. Vinatieri was charged with scoring the winning points in 2 SB's and did so. He has four rings, and saying he didn't play a huge part in those is crazy.

I can say with extreme confidence, if Indy had Vinatieri ONE year earlier -- instead of Mike Vanderjagt -- Peyton Manning would have two rings now!

TO.

matthew8 wrote: »

I wouldn't have either in. Only pure kicker I would have in the hall of fame would be Pete Gogolak because he changed the game. To be a hall of famer you should have to be a truly special player at your position and at the kicker position there's really not much to do to distinguish yourself. If there was they'd be paid more. Apart from Vinatieri's 45 yarder against the Raiders, these clutch kicks weren't particularly hard. Infact I think it's absurd how much credit he gets for the SB win in 2003 considering he missed a 31 yarder and had a 36 yarder blocked

Yeah ok.

You seem to be missing the point of clutch kicks every time this subject comes up. If kicks were so easy kickers wouldn't be missing them all over the shop especially in game winning situations. Kickers in the NFL as well as Punters who are the top of their field should be recognised for the career work. Its idiotic to say a kicker like Vinatieri shouldn't be in the HOF as one of the best kickers ever.

I find it hilarious you come on every time and say kicking is easy. I would go as far to say come on down to a practice for American Football and give it a go with the whole package put together if you feel it is that easy.

TO.

On a funnier note:

Pixar animators doing the NFL season in cartoon pics

Mod: if someone could make these pics smaller that would be awesome. I have no idea how to do it on here.

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2013/02/06/nfl-football-art-austin-madison-pixar/

Dohnny Jepp

I love the saints one!

davyjose

The Browns-Colts one makes it look kinda like we lost to Cleveland. Awesome, all the same.

Son Of A Vidic

Great link TO.


Millenium Falcon is brilliant for the Broncos Vs Falcons...

matthew8

You seem to be missing the point of clutch kicks every time this subject comes up. If kicks were so easy kickers wouldn't be missing them all over the shop especially in game winning situations.

But they're not missing kicks all over the shop. NFL kicking averages are routinely above 80%. And they do it week in week out in the clutch too.

Kickers in the NFL as well as Punters who are the top of their field should be recognised for the career work. Its idiotic to say a kicker like Vinatieri shouldn't be in the HOF as one of the best kickers ever.

I'm not sure he is one of the best ever. He's only considered legendary because Brady/Manning put him in the positions to make a kick to win the game. Out of the kickers currently in the nfl I would certainly say Janikowski is better (judged over the course of their careers of course), while I would put Phil Dawson and Rob Bironas on a par with him. However I think Janikowski is the only kicker in the NFL who has gone well beyond what is expected of a kicker, apart from last year's promising rookies but they'll need to keep it up for a while.

I find it hilarious you come on every time and say kicking is easy. I would go as far to say come on down to a practice for American Football and give it a go with the whole package put together if you feel it is that easy.

You're being ridiculous. These people are professionals. It's expected that they make a 41 yard field goal in perfect conditions. I don't want a player put in the hall of fame for doing something he's considered 85% likely to do. I'm not saying anyone could do it, but it's something they should be able to do because you see them do it so often.

TO.

matthew8 wrote: »

But they're not missing kicks all over the shop. NFL kicking averages are routinely above 80%. And they do it week in week out in the clutch too.

But there is always human error. These guys are not robots and there is so much that can go wrong from the minute the ball is snapped.

I'm not sure he is one of the best ever. He's only considered legendary because Brady/Manning put him in the positions to make a kick to win the game. Out of the kickers currently in the nfl I would certainly say Janikowski is better (judged over the course of their careers of course), while I would put Phil Dawson and Rob Bironas on a par with him. However I think Janikowski is the only kicker in the NFL who has gone well beyond what is expected of a kicker, apart from last year's promising rookies but they'll need to keep it up for a while.

Oh right Brady and Manning are the Reason Vinatieri is a solid kicker. Fair enough. Debate over really if you are going to use a catalyst to say a kicker is only good because of a QB.

You're being ridiculous. These people are professionals. It's expected that they make a 41 yard field goal in perfect conditions. I don't want a player put in the hall of fame for doing something he's considered 85% likely to do. I'm not saying anyone could do it, but it's something they should be able to do because you see them do it so often.

See my top response. Professionals that are human and not robots. I think you will find you are the one being ridiculous with your silly expectations of any kicker. You persistently say kicks are easy and have said before in previous arguments they are easy because you can do it. Hence why I siad what I said. But it doesn't change the fact that pressure kicks from the moment the ball is snapped is always 50/50.

On top of that kickers get far too much stick for missing kicks. Sure some misses are facepalm type kicks but don't forget every player in the NFL including kickers have margins of error. As in they are not perfect and human error and situation can and will always play into a given play. If it were a league full of robots your % argument would ring true.

In summary. Vinatieri has kicked winning field goals that won his team rings. simple as. He was also a up there with the best of them throughout his career. So why shouldn't he get recognised in his field? When the time comes for others to retire like Janikowski they should and most likely will get their moment also.

Masked Man

btw the mission statement for the HOF is

To honor individuals who have made outstanding contributions to professional football
To preserve professional football’s historic documents and artifacts
To educate the public regarding the origin, development and growth of professional football as an important part of American culture
To promote the positive values of the sport

It's not only about making the most valuable contribution to a team. That's kinda why I think Hanson has a shout. And Vinatieri has to be considered. How can you ignore somebody who was the difference in 3 SBs?

matthew8

Oh right Brady and Manning are the Reason Vinatieri is a solid kicker. Fair enough. Debate over really if you are going to use a catalyst to say a kicker is only good because of a QB.

You said it yourself. Solid Kicker. He's very good. 82.5% percentage is a great number for someone with so many kicks. But if he wasn't with the Patriots and Colts, he would be held in the same regard as Phil Dawson, who no one wants to send to the hall of fame.

See my top response. Professionals that are human and not robots. I think you will find you are the one being ridiculous with your silly expectations of any kicker.

The expectations of a kicker are made by looking at what other kickers do week in, week out.

You persistently say kicks are easy and have said before in previous arguments they are easy because you can do it.

In a previous argument I said I can make a fairly simple 30 metre kick without shanking it. I didn't say the same thing about a 41 yard kick.

But it doesn't change het fact that pressure kicks from the moment the ball is snapped is always 50/50.

Except that that's not a fact. At all. In fact it is one of the most non-factual things you can say.

On top of that kickers get far too much stick for missing kicks. Sure some misses are facepalm type kicks but don't forget every player in the NFL including kickers have margins of error. As in they are not perfect and human error and situation can and will always play into a given play. If it were a league full of robots your % argument would ring true.

Missing a few kicks is fine, everyone does it, no one makes them all,

In summary. Vinatieri has kicked winning field goals that won his team rings. simple as. He was also a up there with the best of them throughout his career. So why shouldn't he get recognised in his field? When the time comes for others to retire like Janikowski they should and most likely will get their moment also.

There are plenty of kickers who kick above 80% and have the goods when their team needs them. I just think you should have to have been truly special or have changed the game to get in the hall of fame. Vinatieri to me says very good and did what he was meant to do with remarkable consistency. But I don't view him as a special kicker. Part of that is because it's harder to be special as a kicker in my eyes but there you go. It's for this reason they get paid less than other players.

mongoman

matthew8 wrote: »

There are plenty of kickers who kick above 80% and have the goods when their team needs them.

How many of them have won 4 Superbowl rings?

TO.

matthew8 wrote: »

You said it yourself. Solid Kicker. He's very good. 82.5% percentage is a great number for someone with so many kicks. But if he wasn't with the Patriots and Colts, he would be held in the same regard as Phil Dawson, who no one wants to send to the hall of fame.

So wait he is a very good kicker in your eyes but that is because of the Patriots and Colts? As I said earlier yeah ok. I guarantee you those 4 rings and his career get him into the HOF and every expert and any fan with a good sense of the game would agree but you.

The expectations of a kicker are made by looking at what other kickers do week in, week out.

Yes and vital kicks are missed by even the best kickers.

In a previous argument I said I can make a fairly simple 30 metre kick without shanking it. I didn't say the same thing about a 41 yard kick.

As I said come down to a practice with a full line and long snap and holder and then turn around and tell me you can kick it perfect without shanking or making a mess of it more than once.

Except that that's not a fact. At all. In fact it is one of the most non-factual things you can say.

Who said it was given fact? One of two things can happen with a kick. Either it goes between the sticks or it doesn't.

Missing a few kicks is fine, everyone does it, no one makes them all,

Kind of all over the shop here with your opinion.

There are plenty of kickers who kick above 80% and have the goods when their team needs them. I just think you should have to have been truly special or have changed the game to get in the hall of fame.

Why because you said so? So basically kickers have to go above and beyond their given field to get to the HOF where as other popular positions don't? Bit unfair don't you think?

Vinatieri to me says very good and did what he was meant to do with remarkable consistency. But I don't view him as a special kicker.

Special Kicker? Is there such a thing? Consistency is surely key for any kicker. Someone who makes the clutch kick at the right time would be key for any coach. And most coaches would agree if they had consistent kicker when it counted they would take them in a heartbeat.

Part of that is because it's harder to be special as a kicker in my eyes but there you go. It's for this reason they get paid less than other players.

They get paid less because they play less. And for years seen a lower species but that is all changing. Give it another decade or so and you will see kickers wages increased due to the pressure of the game and the pressure on teams finding guys who wont fook up the pressure kicks.

But this special thing you speak of is nonsense. Every player in the game should be merited on their given field and how good or bad their career was. Bringing the word special into it is an excuse made by those who cant find valid reasons why someone shouldnt go to the HOF. Or even why they just cant credit kickers or punters.

Your opinion for the most part is in the extreme minority when it comes to AV. And as I said he will be in the HOF.

davyjose

Saying a kickers expectation is to make 85% of his kicks is simplistic to the point of ridiculousness. It's like saying the criterion for a HOF QB is to make 65% of his passes.

Would you say Terry Bradshaw should be in the hall? Or Troy Aikman? Or Johnny Unitas? Based on stats, they all fall behind Tony Romo.

matthew8

So wait he is a very good kicker in your eyes but that is because of the Patriots and Colts? As I said earlier yeah ok. I guarantee you those 4 rings and his career get him into the HOF and every expert and any fan with a good sense of the game would agree but you.

I didn't say he was a very good kicker because he was with the Patriots and the Colts. I said he's a very good kicker in his own right, forget about Colts and Patriots. But the only reason people think of him as a hall of famer is because he had the fortune to be signed by super bowl caliber sides.

Who said it was given fact? One of two things can happen with a kick. Either it goes between the sticks or it doesn't.

But it doesn't change het fact that pressure kicks from the moment the ball is snapped is always 50/50.

Kind of all over the shop here with your opinion.

When did I say every kick had to be made by a kicker.

Why because you said so? So basically kickers have to go above and beyond their given field to get to the HOF where as other popular positions don't? Bit unfair don't you think?

Everybody has to go above and beyond their given field to go the hall of fame.

Special Kicker? Is there such a thing? Consistency is surely key for any kicker. Someone who makes the clutch kick at the right time would be key for any coach. And most coaches would agree if they had consistent kicker when it counted they would take them in a heartbeat.

There is such a thing as an exceptional kicker. For instance, one with a truly massive leg like Janikowski, who's also good in the clutch. Blair Walsh seems to be another who is consistent from far out.

They get paid less because they play less. And for years seen a lower species but that is all changing. Give it another decade or so and you will see kickers wages increased due to the pressure of the game and the pressure on teams finding guys who wont fook up the pressure kicks.

The wages won't go up because of how common the skillset is.

But this special thing you speak of is nonsense. Every player in the game should be merited on their given field and how good or bad their career was. Bringing the word special into it is an excuse made by those who cant find valid reasons why someone shouldnt go to the HOF. Or even why they just cant credit kickers or punters.

If every player gets compared to their given field and how they did with what their team threw at them, Phil Dawson gets as many HOF votes as Adam Vinatieri. But Dawson won't even get 1 vote ever because he had the misfortune of being signed by the Browns, unless the 49ers give him the chance to make a bunch of clutch kicks next year.

davyjose wrote: »

Saying a kickers expectation is to make 85% of his kicks is simplistic to the point of ridiculousness. It's like saying the criterion for a HOF QB is to make 65% of his passes.

Would you say Terry Bradshaw should be in the hall? Or Troy Aikman? Or Johnny Unitas? Based on stats, they all fall behind Tony Romo.

That's not what I said. I said if you're considered 85% likely to do something, you should get less credit when you succeed.

And you're distorting things here by comparing QB to kicker. QB is the one position where I'd be willing to use the criteria of super bowl and playoff wins because they impact this more than any other position.

TO.

matthew8 wrote: »

I didn't say he was a very good kicker because he was with the Patriots and the Colts. I said he's a very good kicker in his own right, forget about Colts and Patriots. But the only reason people think of him as a hall of famer is because he had the fortune to be signed by super bowl caliber sides.

So his body of work is irrelevant then? In your mind he is a very good kicker whos rings are product of his teams and he shouldn't be credited for them or any of the work. His kicking helped the Pats get to all of the bowls. Two of his pressure kicks won Super bowls. Had he missed a few of them, you can minus 2 of those rings. He also kicked well in both the other games. He was with the Pats and Colts for a reason. Why do you think the Colts went and got him? Saying his rings are only down to the Pats and Colts is nonsense. It is a team game. He put his work in to earn those medals and in two cases was the reason why the team got them. Such nonsense to use the Oh its the team he is with.

Everybody has to go above and beyond their given field to go the hall of fame.

They actually don't. Plenty of HOF who were just very good in their given field. The fact AV is considered one of the best kickers ever and has 4 rings I am pretty sure he has gone above and beyond for HOF standards.

There is such a thing as an exceptional kicker. For instance, one with a truly massive leg like Janikowski, who's also good in the clutch. Blair Walsh seems to be another who is consistent from far out.

Best kicker in the game Seabass is but I wouldn't call him exceptional. As for Blair Walsh he has an extremely long way to go.

The wages won't go up because of how common the skillset is.

The demand for clutch kickers is increasing yearly. They may not get QB wages but look at some of the high earning kickers are around 4-5m a year and that number will increase by demand when NFL teams realise how important they are. Look at Seabass his contract is up next season and I can guarantee you the Raiders will make him the highest paid kicker again. And he will probably go to 6-7m a year. The wages are increasing and will continue to do so.

If every player gets compared to their given field and how they did with what their team threw at them, Phil Dawson gets as many HOF votes as Adam Vinatieri. But Dawson won't even get 1 vote ever because he had the misfortune of being signed by the Browns, unless the 49ers give him the chance to make a bunch of clutch kicks next year.

That's not what I said. I said if you're considered 85% likely to do something, you should get less credit when you succeed.

Such nonsense. So if you are top of your field you should get less credit when you succeed or do something good? Yeah ok.

And you're distorting things here by comparing QB to kicker. QB is the one position where I'd be willing to use the criteria of super bowl and playoff wins because they impact this more than any other position.

Maybe a bad comparison by him but its the underlying point he made that is true.

As I said already your opinion on AV is in the extreme minority and your opinion on should he go to the HOF is also in the minority. Your opinion on kickers is just nuts but hey you are entitled to it and I am out of this. Oh my invite is still out there if you want to come down and actually giving a kick under pressure a go, than sitting behind a keyboard telling us that you can kick comfortably from a certain distance without shanking it. I can find plenty of guys who can kick 30-40 yard kicks comfortably. Put them behind an O-line with a long snapper and holder and things change, Fact.

kmart6

Well the awesomeness is slowly being sucked out of this thread!

TO.

kmart6 wrote: »

Well the awesomeness is slowly being sucked out of this thread!

Oh I forgot we can't get into debates anymore because guys like to throw up smart responses telling us its wrong to. I am sorry for the inconvenience and zapping up all the awesomeness in the "General Banter Thread" though. Once again apologies Mr Mod........ Oh wait.

TO.

TO. wrote: »

Oh I forgot we can't get into debates anymore because guys like to throw up smart responses telling us its wrong to. I am sorry for the inconvenience and zapping up all the awesomeness in the "General Banter Thread" though. Once again apologies Mr Mod........ Oh wait.

To be honest he had a point, nobody wants to read an in depth discussion on kickers and their role in the NFL and whether they should be in the hall of fame. It's like a big TL;DR thread then.

Chucky the tree

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest he had a point, nobody wants to read an in depth discussion on kickers and their role in the NFL and whether they should be in the hall of fame. It's like a big TL;DR thread then.

wrong.

matthew8

I think I've said all I can really without going around in circles so you can all be relieved of this discussion. By the way of course he will make the hall of fame I'm sure because it is evident the majority of people want him there, it's just that I wouldn't because I think it's unfair to the kickers who have simply had the misfortune of being signed by a bad team who have less big situations to prove their worth through no fault of their own.

TO.

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest he had a point, nobody wants to read an in depth discussion on kickers and their role in the NFL and whether they should be in the hall of fame. It's like a big TL;DR thread then.

May I remind you this thread is for general banter. No where is a certain criteria set out as to what we can or cannot discuss.

Having said that if everybody wanted the same thing or agreed with each other all the time and the long debates didn't happen, Boards wouldn't be around today. The whole point of a discussion forum is to discuss things long or short.

Whether someone likes how the thread is going or not, unless they are a mod have no right to say so, or tell people what to discuss. I enjoyed the debate with Matthew8. We may not agree on this subject or many subjects but he gives a solid debate like most posters on here. If you don't like long posts on a discussion forum I don't know what I can tell you.

Mods mod the forum not us posters. I know I have been slapped on the hand more than once for doing it in the past. As the mods tell us if you don't like posts report them and let them deal with them. Simple as.

Justin10

If you dont want to see a long debate just hit the ignore button.

TO.

matthew8 wrote: »

I think I've said all I can really without going around in circles so you can all be relieved of this discussion. By the way of course he will make the hall of fame I'm sure because it is evident the majority of people want him there, it's just that I wouldn't because I think it's unfair to the kickers who have simply had the misfortune of being signed by a bad team who have less big situations to prove their worth through no fault of their own.

Last thing on this though. How is it unfair? Seabass will 100% go to the HOF and lets face it unless he leaves the Raiders he wont see a Ring in his lifetime. Plenty of opportunity for the best kickers to make the HOF.

Anyways whether people like Bill Belichick or not he makes a great case for AV even if there is slight bias. He also makes great points about the types of players in the HOF.

Patriots coach Bill Belichick is a man of few words, a coach who will rarely come out and just compliment someone or pronounce where their place in the game should be.

But, short of a straight-up endorsement, he advocated in every other way Friday when asked about former New England kicker Adam Vinatieri and whether the sure-footed field goal-maker should have a spot in the Hall of Fame. The normally reserved Belichick gave a solid argument for Vinatieri’s inclusion.

“He’s certainly one of the greatest kickers I’ve ever seen since I’ve been in the league — the longevity, the production, the performance in championships and big games,” Belichick said. “What more could he do? Go out there and play wide receiver and catch a bunch of passes? Is that what he needs to do? I don’t know. What more could he do?

“I don’t know what more Dave Jennings could have done at his position or Ray Guy or guys like that. What else would they have had to do? Get a bunch of interceptions? We don’t judge quarterbacks on their rushing yardage. We don’t judge them on how many tackles they made. I don’t know if we even judge them on how many games they win. We judge them on a lot of their quarterback rating and stats and running backs on rushing yardage.

“What does a guy have to do if he excels at his position? Is that good enough? I don’t know.”

Vinatieri smashed in 81.9 percent of his kicks with the Patriots, including 18 game-winning field goals with less than a minute to go. Considered a true clutch player, he had the winner in the “Tuck Rule game” and the first two of the Patriots’ three Super Bowl victories. After he moved on to the Indianapolis Colts as a free agent, he continued to be one of the game’s best kickers, forging a long, consistent career to go along with his performances in the biggest games.

Belichick admitted that it’s hard for kickers to get into the Hall of Fame due to the tradition and a criteria that even he couldn’t define.

“I don’t know what Hall of Fame means,” he said. “There are guys who have great, long careers. There are other guys with very short careers in the Hall of Fame, from championship teams. There are guys that never or hardly ever played on winning teams. There are guys with personal stats. There are guys with I’d say less personal stats but maybe more championships or more longevity. I don’t know what the criteria is for the Hall of Fame. I’m not in any position, to be honest with you. … It’s hard for me to believe that, as great as this game is, that there are no punters and one kicker in the Hall of Fame.”

Vinatieri will have to wait until his career is over to see whether he’s deemed worthy — but while the Hall of Fame may not be a lock just yet, he certainly has Belichick’s vote.

nerd69

even as an eagles fan im shocked desean jacksons punt against the giants is after making the final and looks like the fave to win. i loved that play i dont think any play in the nfl has made me as happy as that play but im shocked that the catch or the immaculate reception or even marsean lynchs run against the saints a few years ago didnt win it