The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread

Oat23

davyjose wrote: »

Dukes and Woodson pissing their pants that Brady got voted ahead of Smith, Elway and Marino. I do think Marino gets denied a lot of credit because he doesn't have a ring. After all, it's a team game, and the man's stats in the era he played are incredible. Then again, look at what Brady achieved. the real shocker for me, is all these guys are outside the top 20!!! :eek:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d81b88f20/Tom-Brady-ranked-No-21-of-all-time?module=HP_headlines

No, just, just no.













I'm sorry, no.

Peyton Manning

Oatesy23 wrote: »

No, just, just no.

I'm sorry, no.

Three no's.

Same number of Superbowl rings Brady has.

Nice coincidence

davyjose

Archimedes wrote: »

Three no's.

Same number of Superbowl rings Brady has.

Nice coincidence

You can't just count rings to determine the best QB, man.

Peyton Manning

davyjose wrote: »

You can't just count rings to determine the best QB, man.

No, but it goes a hell of a long way towards helping.

davyjose

spiralism wrote: »

Deion is at least top 15 as he's probably the best DB ever to play.

Behind Rod Woodson.

davyjose

Archimedes wrote: »

No, but it goes a hell of a long way towards helping.

I disagree. I think it's easier to label a QB better if he's got rings, but it doesn't make him better. A lot of people rate Elway as one of the best ever, but had he not won those two rings at the twilight of his career, would he really have been any worse? Of course not.

You haven't explained why you think that either, you're just saying it because it suits!!!

tallaghtoutlaws

See this is why I am not a fan of awards or should I say my d1ck is bigger than yours type debates. Can't we all just agree they are all great players in their generation. Who gives a fook who is better than who in the best of the best category. They are and were all the top of their game.

All those award and ranking things are done by other humans giving their opinion and making up their own formulas as to why the player should be there.

Personally I couldn't give a fook if Brady is 1 or 99 he is still to me one of the best QBs in the game by a country mile.

Until the day someone invents a way to getting all these guys on the field in one big fook off of a bowl game and making them show us once and for all who is the best I will stick by my stance and sya who cares.

Peyton Manning

davyjose wrote: »

I disagree. I think it's easier to label a QB better if he's got rings, but it doesn't make him better. A lot of people rate Elway as one of the best ever, but had he not won those two rings at the twilight of his career, would he really have been any worse? Of course not.

You haven't explained why you think that either, you're just saying it because it suits!!!

Im saying it because it shows that Brady can lead a team through the playoffs with so much extra pressure, and perform on the highest stage (2 Superbowl MVPs) with over 100 million people watching. Brady is one of the most clutch QBs in the history of the game, which is such an important quality you need in a QB.

eagle eye

fisgon wrote: »

I know you're exaggerating for effect, and I've read and heard a number of similar things from ex players and commentators in the last week, but this is total nonsense. Making the head area out of bounds when it comes to tackling will not significantly change the nature of the sport, it will still be violent, physical, there will still be big hits, it will still be spectacular, people will still get hurt. What it will do is offer a certain degree of protection to players who may otherwise suffer extremely serious, life-threatening injuries, or who might end up paralysed or brain damaged.

If people want a safe job then go get an office job. These guys are highly paid to entertain us, just like boxers(on average NFL players are way better paid), UFC fighters and any other tough contact sport you care to mention. I'm sorry if I sound crude and unkind but thats simply the way I see it. As I've already said, I can understand these rules for amateur games where the players are not getting paid but the NFL has always been the roughest, toughest game in the business and I just love that. Personally I have more of an issue with the current PI rules but ruling out hits now is just having your cake and eating it and ruining the game imo. It used to be all about having a great D, well its hard to have a great secondary now with all these rules.

fisgon wrote: »

It's also better for the league itself, just look at this week, Desean Jackson, one of the best WR in the game, is out, and may be out for a number of weeks. Dunta Robinson too. Does this make the game better? Absolutely not. The above quote is tantamount to saying that rugby is worthless if you take out spear-tackling or clotheslines.

I've saying all along that you have to cut the defenders some slack if you want to enforce this thing over head shots. If you are going to be this hard about head shots then relax the PI rules a bit so they can stick close to receivers.
And this better for the league comment. Shouldn't the NFLPA be the ones talking about this stuff, they represent the players so I think they know who the majority of players feel about this stuff. Nobody is asking them about this stuff.

fisgon wrote: »

And as for James Harrison, the guy needs to grow up. Threatening to retire because he got fined? It's the reaction of a five-year old. Some of his comments afterwards were a disgrace, but also typical of some of the whining short-sightedness that has emerged from the camp that is incapable of dealing with change, or think that you should be allowed to do whatever you want on a football field. Football is about aggression, sure, but controlled aggression, and being able to control and discipline this violence and physicality is just as big a part of the game as hitting hard.

James Harrison said that he might quit not because of the fines but because he doesn't know if he can play the game successfully within the rules now. I completely understand where he is coming from. You can't touch a player or its 15 yards, if you try to tackle a player and hit his helmet its 15 yards and a weeks wages. Its just completely ridiculous.
I know that James Harrison is not a likeable chap at all and I don't like him one bit but he is a great football player and what he is saying here is understandable.

eagle eye

davyjose wrote: »

Behind Rod Woodson.

Sanders is behind nobody, he is without a shadow of a doubt the best corner ever to play the game. He was perfect at the position so he can't be behind anybody.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

If people want a safe job then go get an office job. These guys are highly paid to entertain us, just like boxers(on average NFL players are way better paid), UFC fighters and any other tough contact sport you care to mention. I'm sorry if I sound crude and unkind but thats simply the way I see it. As I've already said, I can understand these rules for amateur games where the players are not getting paid but the NFL has always been the roughest, toughest game in the business and I just love that. Personally I have more of an issue with the current PI rules but ruling out hits now is just having your cake and eating it and ruining the game imo. It used to be all about having a great D, well its hard to have a great secondary now with all these rules.

Absolute boll0cks. American Football is nothing like Boxing or any sport where you can punch someone square in the face. You cannot compare a sport that can take measures to make the sport as safe as possible and sports that cannot.

And I am going to say stay the fook away from my practice field with that attitude. It is this attitude by you and many others including players and coaches who cant see the long term affect that is killing or causing long term injuries to players.

I've saying all along that you have to cut the defenders some slack if you want to enforce this thing over head shots. If you are going to be this hard about head shots then relax the PI rules a bit so they can stick close to receivers.

Would you get off the case of putting PI and Headshots into the same category they have nothing to do with each other. :rolleyes:

And this better for the league comment. Shouldn't the NFLPA be the ones talking about this stuff, they represent the players so I think they know who the majority of players feel about this stuff. Nobody is asking them about this stuff.

Who gives a **** who fines them once they cut out unsafe hits.

James Harrison said that he might quit not because of the fines but because he doesn't know if he can play the game successfully within the rules now. I completely understand where he is coming from. You can't touch a player or its 15 yards, if you try to tackle a player and hit his helmet its 15 yards and a weeks wages. Its just completely ridiculous.
I know that James Harrison is not a likeable chap at all and I don't like him one bit but he is a great football player and what he is saying here is understandable.

James Harrison just doesn't like change and for him to say what he said when guys like Ray Lewis and Patrick Willis hit as hard if not harder without using there heads is mad. Harrison should grow up.

Eagle to be honest with you your stance on this is living proof of those who have the attitude "oh its a contact sport, wo cares about safety, sure isnt it part of the game"

As someone who has played and coached this game over the last 7 years this angers me to see this attitude. No care in the world for peoples lives.

Simple fact there is techniques that are safe and still have the same impact on the field as those headshots.

Nothing worse than people trying to justify unsafe methods when there are many more safer methods out there. Fook James Harrison and anyone of those out there who choose to have that stance on player safety. When he is in his 50's and his motor skills are shot and his brain is mush lets see if he will have the same stance then.

neilster

agree totally the head shots by Harrison would have been illegal ...they were just called badly ditto with Dunta Robinson and Merriweather

we are making too much on this ...the rules are there ....just implement them...Harrison whilst a fine player is a dirty player ...hes like Cortland Finnegan on that ...Willis and Ray Lewis ....Ed Reed , Palomalu all play hard ...play tough .....Harrison wants people leaving the field on a stretcher ...let him retire ...Mean Joe Greene wud never have done that or the rest of the Iron Curtain of a 1970s

neilster

eagle eye wrote: »

Sanders is behind nobody, he is without a shadow of a doubt the best corner ever to play the game. He was perfect at the position so he can't be behind anybody.

Rod Woodson was better ...just cos of the tackling which until Sanders last 5 years was an after thought ...whilst never in that type of company a modern day version like Asante Samuel is similar...good at bumping at the line....good swivel on the hips in crossing situations ...and good at judging the landing of the ball but if a Moss or an Andre Johnson comes down with it hen the problems start and that has Sanders at 40.

spiralism

davyjose wrote: »

I disagree. I think it's easier to label a QB better if he's got rings, but it doesn't make him better. A lot of people rate Elway as one of the best ever, but had he not won those two rings at the twilight of his career, would he really have been any worse? Of course not.

You haven't explained why you think that either, you're just saying it because it suits!!!

I second this as well actually, as Woodson himself said on NFLN recently, its about the teams as well as the QB and this should be taken into account.

That list is making the mistake of either putting too much value on rings or, in some cases, not enough

Bear in mind that Elway is the only QB to start in FIVE Superbowls and that three of those teams were, to be honest, nowhere near Superbowl standard, he absolutely carried them. The minute he got a coach he was in tune with and a few other players, and boom, back to back SBs in his final 2 years. That's why he's AT LEAST top 10.
I actually think that he's better than Montana because Montana had the perfect situation around him. Give John Elway Jerry Rice and Roger Craig, along with Ronnie Lott on the defence and have that team coached by Walsh and Elway would have 5 rings

23rd ever? you're having a giraffe...

neilster

Oatesy23 wrote: »

No, just, just no.


this why the whole Canton thing can be dangerous , firstly 60% of players are offensive so its skewed anyway and people use this as reason in relation to Sanders but defensive players get a raw deal , John Stallworth is in the Hall with 1 1,000 yard recieving season


Take Tom Brady .....but see how Bruschi, Vrabel, Seymour , Samuel effect his legacy ...shortening the field ...getting turnovers for Brady ...dont get me wrong he on MVP form right now because witha cast of no-names like Tate, Branch (a no-name since 2005 anyway ) , Edelman and anonymous backfield he is getting it done...is anyone else seeing shades of 2001 about it , im not forgetting the fine slot reciever he has but his young tightends are good but young

John Elway is similar ...fantastic clutch player that he was ....M Shanahan arrived in 1996 and was intent in implementing his highly complex zone scheme with a cast of no-names with toughness and togetherness and no egos. High draft picks were largely absent or the one that were were pick-ups as failures elsewhere

The result ....great blocking for Terrell Davis and those great two late rings to cap a fine career with Elway ...and maybe that is the difference for Marino and the Hall of Fame ballot

eagle eye

neilster wrote: »

Take Tom Brady .....but see how Bruschi, Vrabel, Seymour , Samuel effect his legacy ...shortening the field ...getting turnovers for Brady ...dont get me wrong he on MVP form right now because witha cast of no-names like Tate, Branch (a no-name since 2005 anyway ) , Edelman and anonymous backfield he is getting it done...is anyone else seeing shades of 2001 about it , im not forgetting the fine slot reciever he has but his young tightends are good but young

Brady has proven it time and time again, he is clutch and he makes receivers.
Have a look at all the receivers that have left the Patriots since Brady became QB. No receiver has left the Patriots since Brady became QB and did as well anywhere else. The first time he ever got a top receiver was when Randy Moss(who everybody said was finished) came to New England. And what happens? He throws 50 touchdowns in the regular season, more than anybody has ever done. And they went unbeaten in the regular season too.
Branch is the prime example, he has been nothing more than average since he left New England but he comes back in two weeks ago and nearly matches his total for the year in his first game. It was his best performance in 3 years and that was against the Ravens D.

neilster wrote: »

John Elway is similar ...fantastic clutch player that he was ....M Shanahan arrived in 1996 and was intent in implementing his highly complex zone scheme with a cast of no-names with toughness and togetherness and no egos. High draft picks were largely absent or the one that were were pick-ups as failures elsewhere

The result ....great blocking for Terrell Davis and those great two late rings to cap a fine career with Elway ...and maybe that is the difference for Marino and the Hall of Fame ballot

Sorry man. I really liked Elway but nobody comes even close to Montana. And I'm a Patriots fan and a huge Brady fan but Montana was out on his own. Yes he had Jerry Rice for a couple of years but he made other guys look as good as Rice.

neilster

i agree with u ...i would never put Elway ahead of Montana but they were No 1 & 2 in their prime ...arguably anyway ...in terms of clutch ability ...no-huddle and classic 2 minute offence ... Montana has that superior record ...dont forget Bill Walshs influence in all of this

Brady does remind me of that ...a real football intelligence under centre

one thing i would say about Montana ...fantastic offensive line....he didnt have that good scramble ability and steve young showed that off when he came in

having said that when Montana arrived in Kansas he made them relevant and play-off ready in 1 season

fisgon

eagle eye wrote: »

If people want a safe job then go get an office job. .

This argument is becoming a cliche now, I've heard it from about five or six different sources this past week, but that doesn't stop it being totally bogus. It's like telling miners who are demanding better safety procedures down the mine, or police wanting bullet proof vests, or window cleaners on the twentieth floor asking for a safety harness, "no way, tough luck, this is a dangerous job, you knew what you were getting into, you want a safe job, go work in an office." If you can make the game less life threatening, while not substantially diluting the nature of the sport, why not do it? And this nonsense about flag football is just that, nonsense. It's still going to be the most violent, physical ball sport in the world, even without shots to the head. As has been said here in other posts, lots of tacklers manage to put in hard, punishing hits that don't go anywhere near the head.

neilster

fisgon wrote: »

This argument is becoming a cliche now, I've heard it from about five or six different sources this past week, but that doesn't stop it being totally bogus. It's like telling miners who are demanding better safety procedures down the mine, or police wanting bullet proof vests, or window cleaners on the twentieth floor asking for a safety harness, "no way, tough luck, this is a dangerous job, you knew what you were getting into, you want a safe job, go work in an office." If you can make the game less life threatening, while not substantially diluting the nature of the sport, why not do it? And this nonsense about flag football is just that, nonsense. It's still going to be the most violent, physical ball sport in the world, even without shots to the head. As has been said here in other posts, lots of tacklers manage to put in hard, punishing hits that don't go anywhere near the head.

I would agree that these hits were a spate of illegal hits that were badly refereed ....no more no less and the fines were large cos they were bad hits .....J Harrison's views on this are irrelevant ...

he can end a career with a cheap headshot where someone has a concussion history and the aim is firstly to take them out of the game with a mandatory sit-out for 1 game for a severe concussion thereby huindering a divisional foe...Harrison knows what he is doing , thats why he makes the headshot

It was handled correctly ...arguments on the laws governing pass interference ...that has had a huge effect in the play of recievers and CBacks and has made the league a pass-happy league ...now that is a topic for a thread

is anyone going to take Kansas serious now??? after yesterday ???

spiralism

neilster wrote: »

I would agree that these hits were a spate of illegal hits that were badly refereed ....no more no less and the fines were large cos they were bad hits .....J Harrison's views on this are irrelevant ...

he can end a career with a cheap headshot where someone has a concussion history and the aim is firstly to take them out of the game with a mandatory sit-out for 1 game for a severe concussion thereby huindering a divisional foe...Harrison knows what he is doing , thats why he makes the headshot

It was handled correctly ...arguments on the laws governing pass interference ...that has had a huge effect in the play of recievers and CBacks and has made the league a pass-happy league ...now that is a topic for a thread

is anyone going to take Kansas serious now??? after yesterday ???

They would want to now, by the looks of things its them or maybe oakland getting out of the afcw....(wtf is going on)

Syferus

neilster wrote: »

is anyone going to take Kansas serious now??? after yesterday ???

I don't think beating a woefully erratic Jags team really proves much of anything and even their flagship victory against the Chargers looks less impressive given how the Chargers have tended to throw tight games thus far, but it's hard to say that they're not a much-imroved team that could well be in the mix for the division come December.

eagle eye

Syferus wrote: »

I don't think beating a woefully erratic Jags team really proves much of anything and even their flagship victory against the Chargers looks less impressive given how the Chargers have tended to throw tight games thus far, but it's hard to say that they're not a much-imroved team that could well be in the mix for the division come December.

I said it before the season started. You have to respect the Chiefs given all the early draft picks that are in that team now that they have top notch coaching on both sides of the ball with Romeo Crennell and Charlie Weis.

Just look at the difference in their front seven and the only addition this year was Shaun Smith who was with Crennel at Cleveland and who was never really a starter anywhere besides when with Crennel.

Then you look at the offense which was 25th in total yardage last year but lie 12th this season and thats with a bye week already taken.

I can see them being really dangerous this year and if they manage to make the playoffs they could be really dangerous with an OC and DC who have seen it all before. Also their GM Scott Pioli is not to be underestimated, he was the director of player personnel with the Patriots for a long time before he took up that job in Kansas just over a year ago.

neilster

Syferus wrote: »

I don't think beating a woefully erratic Jags team really proves much of anything and even their flagship victory against the Chargers looks less impressive given how the Chargers have tended to throw tight games thus far, but it's hard to say that they're not a much-imroved team that could well be in the mix for the division come December.

Im with eagleeye ..there is too much talent and experience at work ....Pioli masterminded 3 Superbowls ffs

They have got good luck on the draft evaluations particularly at safety and cornerback so they upgraded the defence well ...this is by no means guaranteed (as example look at the Patriots drafts from 00-08 and then after Pioli left, apart from Mayo & merriweather who have the Pats selected well???)

But to be fair they are playing ahead of the other big re-building jobs at oakland , st louis and seattle ( to be fair Spagnolo has things going well and Carroll has the Hawks playin well at home also finding the comeback of the Year with Mike Williams) and i would say that teh Chiefs would have settled for a 0.5 season.


On another note how about a Kyle Orton sweepstakes?

a) his stats are nearly elite this year ....denver is a mess but sure isnt Ortons fault , he didnt get that contract extension for no reason and he is playing well with mediocre talent at reciever

b) Tebow wasnt selected in the first round to sit on the sidelines on a hefty contract for 2 years or as a part-time option play guy

c) On any team Orton would be a guy the team would build around but the coach has a love for Tebow.....how secure is the coaches job ...was Tebow the Owners choice or coach

d) Orton would be a significant upgrade in

Oakland - definite possibility here with Campbell & gradkowski who cant stay healthy

Cleveland- old delhomme & Wallace

Bills- Fitzpatrick a game lad but not good enough

Arizona- Whizz likes Hall so long shot but if Hall is shaky

49ers- very likely as Hill is gone and Smith cant get it done

Carolina Moore is spotty (see week 7's fine play) and Clausen looks spooked , high pick invested in Clausen which is a negative and Richardson the owner is as mean as hell

possibly Seattle an old Hasselbeck and an unproven Whitehurst

Bengals Carson Palmer will likely get released on this years play as his contract is huge and the play has been back-up standard...NFL isnt called the not for lo ng league for nothing...quite likely

Jaguars Similar to Carson Palmer , Garrard is on a lucrative contract and bad play will mean a release, he was good last week but again is maddeningly inconsistent

Chiefs This is an outside bet as Cassel is only at the atart of year2 of a lucrative bumper contract and has the Patriots in the midwest braintrust backing him so i see it more likely he will eventually get it done than fail


Vikes with Bretts' bum ankle and the spotty play of TJack, this is a very likely one ...i think Favre regrets coming back , Chilly is at war with him and Moss is a likely 1 year stop in the twin cities


so howz bout it folks ....much like Rivers..... Orton is achieving Dan Marino level numbers in a horrible team whose defense cant stay on the field and also gives him young recievers

Might have looked unlikely going into training camp but a 1st round pick

would the Vikes , Browns, Oakland , hawks and Panthers not give their right arm for a 4,000 yard QB????

mikemac

Romo out for 8-10 weeks

Was looking around Twitter

Shhhh!!!! Everybody be quiet. . . I got Jerry Jones on the phone!! just kidding. Wouldn't mind wearing that star tho!

Ah Jamarcus Russell, it's a good thing it was a joke

davyjose

neilster wrote: »

Bills- Fitzpatrick a game lad but not good enough

2nd highest passer rating in the league (over 100 attempts). i'm not sure that's a fair assessment of Fitzpatrick considering two years ago we'd have said the same about Orton.

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

2nd highest passer rating in the league (over 100 attempts). i'm not sure that's a fair assessment of Fitzpatrick considering two years ago we'd have said the same about Orton.

I agree Fitzpatrick is clearly making the Difference in Buffalo right now. He is growing as a QB just like Orton.

One thing people need to remember sh1t organisation are just that sh1t. A great QB isnt going to fix the mess they are in either. You need at least some sort of overall package for any QB to get the job done. Remember its not a 1 man show.

The way Orton and Fitzpatrick are both playing shows why you need a full complement of players doing their job. They are both right now making two teams in stress look good at times. And neither can be blamed for anything that goes wrong when they are playing their part 100%.

eagle eye

Fitzpatrick is just having a good run is all. I remember watching him last year against the Dolphins and against the Patriots and he looked real good but he stunk up the joint against the Jets and the Texans.

He is kinda like Aaron Rodgers in that he is a good scrambler but he just makes too many mistakes when pressured.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

Fitzpatrick is just having a good run is all. I remember watching him last year against the Dolphins and against the Patriots and he looked real good but he stunk up the joint against the Jets and the Texans.

Jets and Texans?

Against the Jets - 12/27 128yds and 2 Tds and 0 Ints and 74 yards on the ground.

Hardly stinking up the place. And

Against the Texans 0/0 0yds and 0 Tds and 0 Ints ....... Oh wait they haven't played the Texans this season.

As for last year. Last year is last year and hardly fair to base your opinion of him on a previous season and write him off as a bad QB over 1 season. QBs can grow and get better surprised you are so short sighted on abilities changing considering you fought tooth and nail on Tebow adjusting himself for the NFL.

Ryan Fitzpatrick has shown this season he can compete in the NFL and the fact he is doing it with very little protection and average wide receivers shows that he is working hard in the off season. Many ex coaches and players have said the same about him.


EDIT: I just noticed you said last season also for the Jets and Texans so Im going to keep my post as is either way.

Peyton Manning

The Chiefs would do even better if Todd Haley wasn't such a buffoon and stopped inexplicably giving Thomas Jones more carries than Jamaal Charles. Jones should be a short yardage or goal line back at the most. Haley's an idiot, he must be the only person in the world who doesn't seem to rate Charles when it's clear the guy is a freaking stud.

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

I said it before the season started. You have to respect the Chiefs given all the early draft picks that are in that team now that they have top notch coaching on both sides of the ball with Romeo Crennell and Charlie Weis.

Just look at the difference in their front seven and the only addition this year was Shaun Smith who was with Crennel at Cleveland and who was never really a starter anywhere besides when with Crennel.

Then you look at the offense which was 25th in total yardage last year but lie 12th this season and thats with a bye week already taken.

I can see them being really dangerous this year and if they manage to make the playoffs they could be really dangerous with an OC and DC who have seen it all before. Also their GM Scott Pioli is not to be underestimated, he was the director of player personnel with the Patriots for a long time before he took up that job in Kansas just over a year ago.

I don't really rate them, they're a 8-8 team with a easy schedule. I think we'll know more about them in the next 3 games, especially after they travel to Oakland and Denver. Whatever team makes it out the West will be crushed in the play-offs, unless the Chargers cop themselves on.