The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread

Danger_dave1

davyjose wrote: »

Fitzy is solid too. Hence my point.

Im with neilster on this. How can he be considered solid after so few games ? . If by the end of the season when Defence Coordinators can get some tape of him at nfl level were they see the offense system he's working with and can put him under pressure, if he performes as well and doesnt start throwing more picks then you would conisder him solid. At the end of the season.

Also im confused by what Tallaght said he contradicts himself . " He is growing as a QB just like Orton" but then goes on to say " I wasn't comparing him with Orton "

eagle eye

Archimedes wrote: »

Quite simple really my dear. You say that it's Weis' decision to split the carries between them because of some grand plan he has about keeping his backs fresh. It's not. The carries were also being split last year, before Weis even came to Kansas, and many were lambasting Haley for it back then too. Like I said, Charles only got 25 touches for the first time on December 13th and went on to dominate, like he had been with his limited touches before it - exacty the same as he is doing this year. He's far superior.


.

eagle eye wrote: »

<snip> They were not splitting carries at any stage last year. Jamaal Charles was only a backup to LJ until he got suspended and then cut. Charles then took over as the lead back.

Archimedes wrote: »

<snip> I said he dominated with limited touches.

It even took him a further 2 weeks to stop giving carries to Kolby Smith, still limiting Charles. When he finally did start giving Charles the carries he should have been getting from the start of the year - with 4 games left, he had 7 yards per carry and over 658 yards plus near 80 receiving yards for 4 touchdowns.

Kolby Smith had 4 carries, 9 carries then 1 carry in 3 successive weeks when hurt before he went on IR. Generally a backup will get 3 to 5 touches in a tight game or a loss, and more in a big win during garbage time.
http://www.nfl.com/players/kolbysmith/gamelogs?id=SMI462984&season=2009

http://www.kcchiefsblog.com/javarris-williams/kolby-smith-to-ir-javarris-williams-promoted

And Jamaal Charles was the no.1 back for the last 8 weeks, the only reason his numbers went up the last 4 weeks was due to not having anybody to lighten his workload.

He ended up with a shoulder injury and had surgery on it in January.
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2010/1/17/1255799/shoulder-surgery-for-chiefs-rb
He missed the Chiefs OTAs because of it.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/17/jamaal-charles-brandon-flowers-recovering-from-shoulder-surgery/
He then got hurt in the 3rd preseason game.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2010-08-28-chiefs-eagles_N.htm

And he then starts the season with less touches for the first 3 games than Jones. And since the bye week he has split carries evenly with Jones.

Whats not to get about all of that? Do you still think that somebody has a problem with Jamaal Charles, or could it be a case of them looking after a prized asset?

And just to add I'm getting fed up of your insults. I don't mind having a heated discussion with somebody but telling me I'm full of **** is going ott.

Oh and 1 more thing. The Chiefs are no.1 in rushing in the NFL.
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2010&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=RUSHING_YARDS_PER_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

Chucky the tree

It pains me to say it but I have to agree with Eagle Eye Charles. :pac: No doubt the guy is talented but I think splitting the carries with Jones is a smart decision by whoever is making it. He's struggled with injuries and he's still young so giving him the full load now is a bit risk. Also I'm sure he's YPC is high because he gets the load when he is fresh later in the game against a tiring defense. I think we'll see the roles switch next year when Jones old and Charles has a full TC and pre-season behind.

Hazys

Is there anybody looking at this thread going, wow this argument is getting heated, they must be talking about one of these topics:

• Brady Vs Manning
• Pats Vs Jets
• Vick Vs Kolb
• Brett Farve's "retirement"
• Concussions and new rules
• etc

No wait, its about Bills QB Fitzpatrick :eek:

Chucky the tree

Hazys wrote: »

Is there anybody looking at this thread going, wow this argument is getting heated, they must be talking about one of these topics:

• Brady Vs Manning
• Pats Vs Jets
• Vick Vs Kolb
• Brett Farve's "retirement"
• Concussions and new rules
• etc

No wait, its about Bills QB Fitzpatrick :eek:

Not when it's eagle eye vs Tallght & Archimedes.

mikemac

Most arguments I see over the last few months are Patriots fans arguing over Patriots players

Anyway for my own contribution Flacco got nominated for Air & Ground player of the week.
Credit where it's due, Flacco didn't deserve the nomination. Fitzpatrick did

Hazys

feelingstressed wrote: »

Most arguments I see over the last few months are Patriots fans arguing over Patriots players

Anyway for my own contribution Flacco got nominated for Air & Ground player of the week.
Credit where it's due, Flacco didn't deserve the nomination. Fitzpatrick did

Joe(y) Flacco has got himself a Situation



http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Joe-Flacco-dresses-up-like-Jersey-Shore-star-f?urn=nfl-280018

mikemac

Ah Joe Cool, got a reputation for being too quiet.
Not that matters, Montana was much the same

His Sound FX video was great, trying to convince players "I have a personality"
This haircut is another attempt

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-sound-efx/09000d5d81b4de44/Sound-FX-Joe-Flacco

He's a thief too!

Hazys

NFL is king in the US

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/27/nfl-rules-the-ratings-roost/

If the Saints Vs Steelers beats out the World Series (and it probably will) its an amazinf feat for the NFL.

davyjose

Danger_dave1 wrote: »

Im with neilster on this. How can he be considered solid after so few games ? . If by the end of the season when Defence Coordinators can get some tape of him at nfl level were they see the offense system he's working with and can put him under pressure, if he performes as well and doesnt start throwing more picks then you would conisder him solid. At the end of the season.

Also im confused by what Tallaght said he contradicts himself . " He is growing as a QB just like Orton" but then goes on to say " I wasn't comparing him with Orton "

I'm done with this. You're picking up on me calling him solid when originally all I did was pointed out he has the 2nd highest QB rating in the league, for the worst team in the league.

This point was made after Neilster claimed Fitzy "wasn't good enough", and that Orton would be "a significant upgrade". I disagree. You're picking apart one sentence from a discussion spread over 4 pages, which is what tends to happen when these things go on too long. So like I said, I'm done.

I will say though: there are about 50 players in the Bills locker room I'd trade, before messing with QB.

neilster

davyjose wrote: »

I'm done with this. You're picking up on me calling him solid when originally all I did was pointed out he has the 2nd highest QB rating in the league, for the worst team in the league.

This point was made after Neilster claimed Fitzy "wasn't good enough", and that Orton would be "a significant upgrade". I disagree. You're picking apart one sentence from a discussion spread over 4 pages, which is what tends to happen when these things go on too long. So like I said, I'm done.

I will say though: there are about 50 players in the Bills locker room I'd trade, before messing with QB.

This is my point with Orton ...he was solid in 08 ...good in 09 (with a trainwreck of a team in the 2nd half) ...and very good on 2010.....Fitzy has been solid if not downright good for 4 games ....but Chan Gailey would have 50 games of being good with Orton . Why would Gailey move now on an improving Fitzy...no reason .....but if he regresses ...the end of the season would be different... I just think ye guys underrate Orton and overrate Fitz ....

neilster

frostie500 wrote: »

I'm probably going back over old ground here but I'm just after reading through the last day of posts and cant really understand how anyone cant be impressed with the job Fitzpatrick is doing. The Bills are a terrible team yet the play of Fitzpatrick has been of a very high level. Through four starts he has 11 TD and only 4 INTS he is keeping possension of the ball and moving downfield, his 8 yard average per attempt attests to this.

He may not be a Brady, Manning etc but thats because at any one time there can only be a handful of elite players, right now he is a developing QB and for a franchise that has not had decent production at QB since 2000 with Doug Flutie and a top level player since Jim Kelly its tough to see why there is any doubt about his future to be honest.

I know it can be tough to realise but players develop with time! Yes he was a 7th rounder but to be honest the round you get drafted in counts for nothing except for signing bonus. When you enter the league you have to perform from that day onwards. He is developing and showing great progress, yes it might be a flash in the pan but there is no way that the Bills are going to be going any other direction at QB unless they are offered a trade for a top level QB similar to the one the Bears got with Cutler(please dont comment on Cutler being top level that was the view of the Bears at the time of the trade!)

Also it is worth remembering that Fitzpatrick played for Harvard. As a result the level of play he experienced in college was incredibly different to the NFL. He was playing against the likes of(in 2004) Holy Cross, Brown, Lafayette, Cornell, North Eastern, Princeton, Dartmouth, Columbia, Pennsylvania and Yale-in other words its not quite the SEC he was playing in! So unlike players in that league he had a massive jump to make when he came to the NFL so is it really surprising he bounced around a few teams? In some ways he was lucky because he clearly learned from two QBs that were elite at one point or another(Bulger and Palmer)

i didnt say i wasnt impressed and i mentioned his wonderlic before..... the guy is a smart guy and Peter King alluded to rathering having a smart donkey QB than a Stupid wonder athlete type and Fitzy seems to fit this mold but this is early..... Kolb got an extension and got annointed by streaky play like this and i think Vick will leave him in his slipstream....Garrard , Moore all the same ...if the majority of the remainder of the season is like the last 4 weeks then i will be converted ...until then

Syferus

neilster wrote: »

i didnt say i wasnt impressed and i mentioned his wonderlic before..... the guy is a smart guy and Peter King alluded to rathering having a smart donkey QB than a Stupid wonder athlete type and Fitzy seems to fit this mold but this is early..... Kolb got an extension and got annointed by streaky play like this and i think Vick will leave him in his slipstream....Garrard , Moore all the same ...if the majority of the remainder of the season is like the last 4 weeks then i will be converted ...until then

And all you mentioned are hugely different situations; Moore was/is on a very tentative lease and only got his shot because DelHomme had become so erratic -not even mentioning them drafting Clausen - whereas as Edwards and Fitzpatrick were engaged in a touch-and-go competition for an age. I could go on, but the point is none of those fit as comfortably as you'd think.

tallaghtoutlaws

Danger_dave1 wrote: »

Also im confused by what Tallaght said he contradicts himself . " He is growing as a QB just like Orton" but then goes on to say " I wasn't comparing him with Orton "

Good to see you read my posts properly and took me out of context good man. I was accused of comparing their abilities. Comparing ones growth and abilities are two different things. The reason I used Orton because of the season he is having right now and shows that with the right growth even when people have been knocking him for years you can succeed. As for abilities I would rate Orton over Fitzy.

tallaghtoutlaws

davyjose wrote: »

I'm done with this. You're picking up on me calling him solid when originally all I did was pointed out he has the 2nd highest QB rating in the league, for the worst team in the league.

This point was made after Neilster claimed Fitzy "wasn't good enough", and that Orton would be "a significant upgrade". I disagree. You're picking apart one sentence from a discussion spread over 4 pages, which is what tends to happen when these things go on too long. So like I said, I'm done.

I will say though: there are about 50 players in the Bills locker room I'd trade, before messing with QB.

Exactly this. Danger Dave if you are going to jump in the middle of debate at least read it properly. You are picking people off and taking a lot of what was said out of context. So easy to pick off 1 or 2 sentences and call them out and put them together and make whatever you want out of it.

neilster

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Both when drafted were never considered SB winners either so whats your point? Are you trying to say that OH it will never happen again? Im lost here help me out. But no one is suggesting Fitzy will be elite so why mention Elite Superbowl winners?



So what the Rams had Bolger and Ferrotte and felt they didn't need Fitzy as Bolger was the big thing back then for them.



Again so what? Carson Palmer was Always going to get his spot back. And JT O'Sullivan was signed.



A lot of people criticised the Bills for this. And again you are missing the point to the Orton thing. The growth aspect is what I personally was going for I was comparing him to Orton but merely on how like Orton he is doing what is asked of him in a situation where he will be blamed if anything goes wrong.



But aren't you just speculating just like us?




I don't know why you keep going back to Orton on every point.



Shows you failed to read my point on Brees. As for Favre he developed the Vicodim problem while with Green Bay. There was never any reports of him taking it during his Atlanta days. Glanville the head coach of Atlanta publically said he didn't agree with Drafting Favre that year and actually said it would take a plane wreck for him to put Favre into a game.




Where is anyone predicting Fitzy will have an aweosme 2011? And you don't like his tone?

You love moving the context around and the sentence on its own doesnt make sense but Fitzy being a 7th rd pick is one of a list of weaknesses in a list and that despite Montana & Brady being 7th rd picks they are very much exceptions to the rule........one of which you picked out

You might like to mention Vicodin as a Wisconsin only ill for Favre but it is commonly known that Favre had addiction problems in Atlanta ...because Glanville doesnt want to be quoted as saying it and cos journos dont print it ....doesnt make your version so...as for Glanville he has tried to re-write history ever since Favre .....and i wouldnt quote him on naything Favre related


.....The Sterger issue lately has brought up roundabout mentions of these Georgia problems

in 07 when Fitzy got let go ....not one team signed him off waivers...he sat out 2008 until Cincinnati signed him , there isnt an stats for 07-08 cos he was out of the league

and who said i wasnt speculating just like you ....im just hedging my bets and its four games...i get your point ...as i said Orton reminds me of Schaubs growing pains .....proving himself...playing well on a bad team...and then finally the team moving forward with a good quarterback ...and Fitzy maybe 4 games into the very same growth curve but four games

Brees was in a position like Orton may be in the future ....he was a very good quarterback with a no 1 pick on the roster along with him. The finances of the salary cap prevent two good quarterbacks being resigned at the one time so something will have to give

why cant you praise other peoples points as i am allowing some of yours

eagle eye

I'll just clear up my position on Fitzpatrick.

He certainly has done a great job since he came in this year. Its only been a couple of games though so I'm not sold. The reason I'm not sold on him is I seen the guy play well for a couple of games last year and then fall to pieces for a couple more when put under a lot of pressure.

I totally agree that now that teams have a good bit of gametape on him we will see what he is made of. If he keeps this up for the season then I'm willing to say I was wrong. But personally I'm of the opinion that he will have his bad days just like before.

tallaghtoutlaws

neilster wrote: »

why cant you praise other peoples points as i am allowing some of yours

You know Im going to skip the rest because it seems you are in the know and I bow down to your inside knowledge of the events back in the early 90's. I have read many of the reports and many of the pieces on Favre and talked to many from WI and all I can do is go on what I have learned over the year and there was never any solid evidence that he was abusing in Atlanta. But I stand corrected if you are more knowledgeable on the subject than myself.

As for praising other peoples posts Oh I am sorry for not praising your posts. I didn't realise you like people on the internet praising you. But I will say I agree with a lot of things you have said. In fact I have already said that earlier in the thread. From now on I will praise your post before replying.

As for moving the context around. Yes that is what I am doing. The fact of the matter is I stuck by the same points on Fitzy throughout. If you feel I am moving the context around that is your opinion and I respect that.

davyjose

neilster wrote: »

This is my point with Orton ...he was solid in 08 ...good in 09 (with a trainwreck of a team in the 2nd half) ...and very good on 2010.....Fitzy has been solid if not downright good for 4 games ....but Chan Gailey would have 50 games of being good with Orton . Why would Gailey move now on an improving Fitzy...no reason .....but if he regresses ...the end of the season would be different... I just think ye guys underrate Orton and overrate Fitz ....

I said i'm done, but I owe you a response.

Look, I'm just going to bring this back to the original context: that fitzy should be shipped out for Orton, if the Bills got the chance. I still don't agree. Orton is better than Fitzy, absolutely. But if it ain't broke, why fix it? The Bills have huge problems on the field, and Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't one of them. bank him, and give the contracts to some linemen. Orton is benefitting hugely from McDaniels' system too. I'm not convinced he'd be as good as he is at Denver. But to talk of trading a QB who's playing well is unfair tbh.

As for Tallaght, he's defending Orton since his chicago days. He certainly doesn't underrate him.

Syferus

Thanks from: the reader's perspective

neilster

Syferus wrote: »

And all you mentioned are hugely different situations; Moore was/is on a very tentative lease and only got his shot because DelHomme had become so erratic -not even mentioning them drafting Clausen - whereas as Edwards and Fitzpatrick were engaged in a touch-and-go competition for an age. I could go on, but the point is none of those fit as comfortably as you'd think.

Really how hugely different are they ....Moore is on a contract extension at a ballclub who have never paid the money ...but granted they wouldnt put money into Clausen in the first round....Moore is cheapish and they have insurance maybe with Clausen so i owuld say thats a tight fight as the Bills QB situ was until they lost faith in Edwards

Players , systems and coaches may be different and certainly the potential for a strange decision is aided by some red herrings like Al Davis for example but issues like the slaary cap , guaranteed money etc will decide things in Buffalo just the same as they are playing out in Charlotte

Remember in 2008 for 14 games Kansas got very solid play from a signal caller picked in the 7th round Tyler Thigpen ...he had played 1 game in 07 ,
and played once more in 09 (i think he went down iinjured) he bounced to Miami back to Kansas and is back with the Fins now

anyway my point is the Coach was Chan Gailey who has a way with Qbacks ...Fitzys first three games were solid ...the last was exceptional so lets see ...

Danger_dave1

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Exactly this. Danger Dave if you are going to jump in the middle of debate at least read it properly. You are picking people off and taking a lot of what was said out of context. So easy to pick off 1 or 2 sentences and call them out and put them together and make whatever you want out of it.

I did thank you Tallaght, but the matter still remains you compared him to orton, and then 2 pages later you said you didnt compare them. So how is that taking what you said out of context ?


Ive really enjoyed a good amount what you've all said, makes sense, i was just posted about one point that i dont belief he's steady yet , like orton and would make an informed decision at the end of the season . I believe that is my right as a cyber warrior of boards.ie ? ;p

tallaghtoutlaws

Danger_dave1 wrote: »

I did thank you Tallaght, but the matter still remains you compared him to orton, and then 2 pages later you said you didnt compare them. So how is that taking what you said out of context ?


Ive really enjoyed a good amount what you've all said, makes sense, i was just posted about one point that i dont belief he's steady yet , like orton and would make an informed decision at the end of the season . I believe that is my right as a cyber warrior of boards.ie ? ;p

You know what I am the first to admit i am wrong most of the time but show me exactly where I contradicted myself?

I compared their situations not the individuals. Go and read my posts again. Comparing the individual and then comparing the situations they are both in now are two very different things.

I will 100% say I think Orton is a fantastic QB and have always said it. Go back to the Orton/Cutler thread and see. When I brought Fitzy into the equation I talked about the situation they are both in now i.e getting their job done while the team around them are struggling. And I stand by what I said about Fitzy also. For a guy other teams wrote off very easily he is getting the job done with a team no one would expect him to.

But look if you want to say I contradicted myself fire right ahead, that is your opinion and you are quite entitled to it.

neilster

davyjose wrote: »

I said i'm done, but I owe you a response.

Look, I'm just going to bring this back to the original context: that fitzy should be shipped out for Orton, if the Bills got the chance. I still don't agree. Orton is better than Fitzy, absolutely. But if it ain't broke, why fix it? The Bills have huge problems on the field, and Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't one of them. bank him, and give the contracts to some linemen. Orton is benefitting hugely from McDaniels' system too. I'm not convinced he'd be as good as he is at Denver. But to talk of trading a QB who's playing well is unfair tbh.

As for Tallaght, he's defending Orton since his chicago days. He certainly doesn't underrate him.

There is a real feeling of peace and love in here today ...i agree with you ...Fitzy has been solid but he gave Baltimore a real fright with very high standard play and really Gailey would be mad to ...my feelings about Orton were end of season change ...even if we are comparing 7 games in

fair enuff on tallaght and orton as he has said himself in his last post

how does he think about the whole cutler martz thing ? to start a new topic cos it is a conundrum

mikemac

neilster wrote: »

Fitzy has been solid but he gave Baltimore a real fright with very high standard play

Fitzpatrick could have sipped cocktails back there given the lack of Ravens pass rush.
Woeful :mad: Mattison, the DC is getting a pasting on the messages boards.

But Fitz definitely played great, one of the most impressive performances of any QB that week, making great throws and scores

spiralism

Fitzy is looking very good tbh but Orton is rapidly evolving into a top tier qb. There's a hell of a lot of problems with this Denver team but he isn't one of them, this may sound ridiculous but imo he reminds me of Drew Brees at the same age.

Seriously, he's got no run support, our coach is a question mark to say the least, he's getting battered half the plays he's in because our Oline is horribly inconsistent (prob due to a banged up clady and rookies at C and RT... also our oline coach is a former f'n tight ends coach) and his wide recievers are Jabar Gaffney, Brandon Lloyd, Eddie Royal and 2 rookies. No TE to speak of either as Graham solely blocks pretty much.

Having half the defence injured and a rake of UDFAs/low rounders out in their place does not help either.

2140 yds 11 TDs 4 INTs, 92.1 QBR from that is not too shabby to tell the truth, if he was in the NFC he'd be guaranteed probowl with that... even then he has an outside chance this year behind manning and rivers.

Danger_dave1

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

You know what I am the first to admit i am wrong most of the time but show me exactly where I contradicted myself?

So am i , i reread your post's i missed one of your points when you mutli quoted neilster, sorry bout that, if i had seen it wouldnt have made the comment,


p.s i still believe you can't consider him solid yet , how many times have we seen qbs have 5 to 12 games. That they are solid or excellent in , to found out in the end.

Needs more games, he's got talent, but if that translates into solid performance by the end of the season i ll change my mind.

davyjose

neilster wrote: »

There is a real feeling of peace and love in here today ...i agree with you ...Fitzy has been solid but he gave Baltimore a real fright with very high standard play and really Gailey would be mad to ...my feelings about Orton were end of season change ...even if we are comparing 7 games in

fair enuff on tallaght and orton as he has said himself in his last post

how does he think about the whole cutler martz thing ? to start a new topic cos it is a conundrum

My only credible response to this could possibly be...

Over and out!!! I'll pick Ryan's season up again in January.

eagle eye

Anyone ever see this one before? I seen it in the 90's at some stage on that Sports Channel that does all the old stuff in the US. The player is Jim Marshall who is an all time great. Was just thinking about it tonight for some reason and went looking for it on youtube:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IBkQoXNvbA

mikemac

Poor Jim Marshall

For years, he held a record for most consecutive starts, not sure on the status of that record nowadays. He realy was an all time great

A number of his teammates made the HOF but Jim never made it and never will make it

I'm pretty sure his team still won that game.