The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread

Arawn

Sidearms it and doesn't appear to of even looked ha

Son Of A Vidic

MVP is nothing more than a popularity contest, it's pretty worthless and lacks any credibility for me. Same old bullshít - QB's need only apply. Followed by RB's and the odd WR's. The last time a player on the defensive side of the ball won was back 1986.

Hazys

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

MVP is nothing more than a popularity contest, it's pretty worthless and lacks any credibility for me. Same old bullshít - QB's need only apply. Followed by RB's and the odd WR's. The last time a player on the defensive side of the ball won was back 1986.

So true and its decided before the actually important games start.

Billy86

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

MVP is nothing more than a popularity contest, it's pretty worthless and lacks any credibility for me. Same old bullshít - QB's need only apply. Followed by RB's and the odd WR's. The last time a player on the defensive side of the ball won was back 1986.

It is a farce - as it stands it probably is still Manning this year as it's been such a weird, weird season (doubtful, but if the Jags make the playoff that will have to be the weirdest team to make it... ever) without many real A+ standouts. But last year while it was a relief to see Peterson win it simply because he is not a QB, I still felt Watt should have won it. Less so than him not winning it, what really disgusted me was him barely even making any honourable mentions lists. That's the best individual season any defensive lineman has ever had, and quite possibly any defensive player full stop (esp with all the game-planning he had against him, and the emphasis on stats for awards).

Many team sports in general are sadly going the same way though in my opinion. Football being another example with how Messi constantly wins every award under the sun, while Barca are painted as "Messi + 10" in many corners... despite the fact that Xavi was the one who controlled their games and possession, and carried that over to Spain's successes whereas Messi actually hasn't done a pile for Argentina until much more recently. but Messi scores the goals, so Messi is the only one many people pay any attention to. He's an all-time great type of player so I'm not looking to take this thread on a tangent, but it's just an example from a different sport.

The effects of heavy marketing really.

matthew8

Well, it is called the most valuable player award, and having a top class QB adds so much more to a team than having a top class player elsewhere. The QB can change a team like no other position.

And don't say the regular season games aren't important. Last year's SB champs were 1 regular season loss from losing the division, the 2 previous were one regular season loss from missing the playoffs altogether. If it was decided after the postseason it would become ridiculous and they'd just give it to the SB winning QB.

D3PO

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

MVP is nothing more than a popularity contest, it's pretty worthless and lacks any credibility for me. Same old bullshít - QB's need only apply. Followed by RB's and the odd WR's. The last time a player on the defensive side of the ball won was back 1986.

Opps sorry thought you were talking about the Heisman.

Billy86

matthew8 wrote: »

Well, it is called the most valuable player award, and having a top class QB adds so much more to a team than having a top class player elsewhere. The QB can change a team like no other position.

And don't say the regular season games aren't important. Last year's SB champs were 1 regular season loss from losing the division, the 2 previous were one regular season loss from missing the playoffs altogether. If it was decided after the postseason it would become ridiculous and they'd just give it to the SB winning QB.

In my mind, there is no single player you can take out of any team last year that would have as much impact as taking Watt out of Houston. Peterson and Rodgers are the only two that I think that argument could truly have been be made for (the rest of GB's offense and defense was pretty much just as disjointed as it has been in recent weeks for much of last season).

Manning was second in most people's eyes, despite taking a team from 9-7 and the divisional round to... 13-3 and the divisional round. Even without taking the playoffs into consideration, he was taking over a team that could function pretty damn well with one of the worst starting QBs the NFL had season in a long time. Rodgers, Brady, Peterson, Lynch, Watt and probably a few others had more justification.

The award has stopped being about value and is now really just a stat race, nearly exclusively for QBs.

matthew8

In my mind, there is no single player you can take out of any team last year that would have as much impact as taking Watt out of Houston. Peterson and Rodgers are the only two that I think that argument could truly have been be made for (the rest of GB's offense and defense was pretty much just as disjointed as it has been in recent weeks for much of last season).

Andrew Luck, RG3, Russell Wilson easily would have been bigger losses for me. Look at where their teams were without them (But that's besides the point, a player shouldn't get an award just because they play for a bad team). I'd have given it to Rodgers myself, but the media seemed to think coming back from injury added greater value to a player's play.

Manning was second in most people's eyes, despite taking a team from 9-7 and the divisional round to... 13-3 and the divisional round. Even without taking the playoffs into consideration, he was taking over a team that could function pretty damn well with one of the worst starting QBs the NFL had season in a long time. Rodgers, Brady, Peterson, Lynch, Watt and probably a few others had more justification.

You can't seriously say the 2011 Denver Broncos were nearly as good as the 2012 version. The 2011 team made a living out of squeaking by some teams in the last minute and getting thrashed in their other games. They were a fluke. There's a big difference between a team that loses a 2OT thriller on a spectacularly blown coverage and a team that loses 45-10. Even if we say the team was pretty good without him, are we meant to penalise players for playing on a good team?

davyjose

Kubiak's gone.

Dohnny Jepp

Kubiak fired, I know it was a terrible season but I still think its harsh

davyjose

Dohnny Jepp wrote: »

Kubiak fired, I know it was a terrible season but I still think its harsh

He had to go. Taking a team with that much talent to 2-11 takes a huge amountof ineptitude IMO

Son Of A Vidic

davyjose wrote: »

He had to go. Taking a team with that much talent to 2-11 takes a huge amountof ineptitude IMO

I'm a big believer in professional athletes that underachieve on the field, accepting some accountability for their poor performances. There's only so much a HC can do, he can 'talk the talk' but it's up to the players to 'walk the walk' on the field.

Billy86

matthew8 wrote: »

Andrew Luck, RG3, Russell Wilson easily would have been bigger losses for me. Look at where their teams were without them (But that's besides the point, a player shouldn't get an award just because they play for a bad team). I'd have given it to Rodgers myself, but the media seemed to think coming back from injury added greater value to a player's play.

The Seahakws went 7-9 and got to the divisional round before drafting Wilson, they went 11-5 and got to the divisional round with him - Wilson also was not even the most important player on that offense which belongs to Lynch, and an improved defense also accounted for some of the improvement. In 2011 their defense was 7th, in 2012 it was 1st (points allowed), and they also had the third best running game in the league. This season he has elevated his game further again and is an outsider MVP candidate, but last year he was simply not on that level.

RGIII was hugely important, but let's not pretend he didn't also ave a 1,600 yard rookie RB behind him to help out; the Redskins went from 5-11 to 10-6. They also beat the Browns 38-21 in a game RGIII missed, which showed that it was not him carrying the offense on his back the same way Watt was with Houston.

Luck also had help from a defense that improved from 28th to 21st, had a pretty iffy TD:INT ratio (23-to-18), completed less than 55% of his passes. He had less around him than the other two of course, but he also was not an approaching an MVP candidate - you don't give that to someone with a passer rating in the 70s, and whose offense is not even in the top half of the league in scoring.

That's not a slight against any of those three players, they are all fantastic in my mind. But last year, none of them were worth as much to their teams' successes as JJ Watt was to Houston's.

100+ tackles, 20.5 sacks, 16 passes defended, 4 forced fumbles and 2 fumbles recovered while being very solid against the run and game-planned against more than pretty much any other player in the league. With key players like Cushing missing huge amounts of the season, Mario Williams having left for Buffalo and his replacement Conor Barwin not nearly living up to expectations. And though shifting around, doing so primarily out of a 3-4 DE position - possibly the most unglamorous on any defense after the nose.

You can't seriously say the 2011 Denver Broncos were nearly as good as the 2012 version. The 2011 team made a living out of squeaking by some teams in the last minute and getting thrashed in their other games. They were a fluke. There's a big difference between a team that loses a 2OT thriller on a spectacularly blown coverage and a team that loses 45-10. Even if we say the team was pretty good without him, are we meant to penalise players for playing on a good team?

In regards to most VALUABLE player... yes. If you take over a 9-7 team who got to the divisional round with an awful QB, when you've got one of the best lines in the league protecting you, weapons like Decker, Thomas & Thomas (and now Welker), a solid running game as well as one of the very best defenses in the league, you would want to be pushing for unbeaten seasons and broken records to be the front-runner for MVP.

Hence why he is the front-runner this year.

Take Manning out of last year's team and replace him with 10-15 other players and they won't be as good, but also wouldn't be too far off. Take Watt or Peterson out of their teams and replace them with one of 10-15 other players and the difference would have been bigger. Hence, they were more valuable.

Billy86

Have the 2013 Texans been the single biggest disappointment of the last decade? If they finish with the top pick, it's hard to think of any others.

matthew8

You're again giving more credit to players on teams that aren't elite.

I just don't buy into the idea that Watt made this huge difference either. Before the breakout season they were second in total defense and during his breakout season they were 7th. Opposing passer rating before his breakout was 69, for the breakout season it was 80. YPC allowed went from 4.1 to 4.0. The defense could have done well without him.

The Broncos scored 10 more points per game with Peyton Manning in 2012 than without him in 2011. It might have been easy to improve following Tebow but that's massive. No way Watt was better than an average interior lineman by even 7 points per game.

Billy86

matthew8 wrote: »

You're again giving more credit to players on teams that aren't elite.

I just don't buy into the idea that Watt made this huge difference either. Before the breakout season they were second in total defense and during his breakout season they were 7th. Opposing passer rating before his breakout was 69, for the breakout season it was 80. YPC allowed went from 4.1 to 4.0. The defense could have done well without him.

The Broncos scored 10 more points per game with Peyton Manning in 2012 than without him in 2011. It might have been easy to improve following Tebow but that's massive. No way Watt was better than an average interior lineman by even 7 points per game.

You're forgetting that the Texans were looking elite last season - they were one of the biggest favourites going into this season to win the Superbowl. A team being 'elite' though, is not that relevant to the award, nor should it be by definition. Otherwise they should rename it the 'best player on the best team' award. That's why they initially differentiated the most valuable award from the offensive/defensive player of the year awards.

The Texans would not have done as well without him, and that's not even a question. That's as absurd a statement as saying the 2007 Patriots or 2011 Packers could have done as well as they did without Rodgers or Brady - he had the best season, by a distance, that any defensive lineman has had in the history of the game. And it was not the same defense as they had in 2011 (on which Watt was a key player)...

For one, they had lost Mario Williams to Buffalo and his replacements played horrible (Barwin and Brooks Reed) whereas he had done very well the year before. Another factor was losing Cushing (who was All Pro in 2011) for much of the year, right as Demeco Ryans had left for Philadelphia. The Texans went from having one of the best LB units in the league to having very little there in 2012, and hardly anyone noticed because of Watt's play. He covered an awful, awful lot of cracks which have really began to show themselves this season.

davyjose

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I'm a big believer in professional athletes that underachieve on the field, accepting some accountability for their poor performances. There's only so much a HC can do, he can 'talk the talk' but it's up to the players to 'walk the walk' on the field.

I don't disagree but at some point it falls on the coaches lap. This is the guy, remember, who micromanages to such a degree that his veteran QB isn't allowed audible out of plays.

Adamcp898

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I'm a big believer in professional athletes that underachieve on the field, accepting some accountability for their poor performances. There's only so much a HC can do, he can 'talk the talk' but it's up to the players to 'walk the walk' on the field.

True, and there's plenty of examples in sports where a manager/HC has lost their job because players have decided not to play to their potential because they don't like the man in charge.

But unfortunately someone has to be seen to be being held accountable for results and this means, like in most businesses, it's the manager/HC that gets the sack for a poorly performing team - Sometimes for the simple reason that it's a hell of a lot easier than sacking the playing staff but I don't think that's the case here.

Son Of A Vidic

The discontent between the Texans offense and defense earlier in the season was never a good sign. Kubiak I suspect lost the dressing room at some point and that more than anything else, probably put the nail in his coffin.

Billy86

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

The discontent between the Texans offense and defense earlier in the season was never a good sign. Kubiak I suspect lost the dressing room at some point and that more than anything else, probably put the nail in his coffin.

Lose the dressing room, lose your job. It's pretty much true of any sport.

In truth I think it has to be on him for reasons some have mentioned already, and his inability to get them to at least a conference game with the talent he has had to work with in recent years (though he has been good, prior to this year he did get undue criticism in my mind, but he had no 'good will' to hold on with like Rex Ryan had last season for example). It will be interesting to see where they go for his replacement - top picks through the draft, the talent they already have on the roster, a relatively quiet media (as opposed to the madness of NY, Dallas, etc) and no real pressure of 'history' meaning a coach could well put 'their mark' on the franchise if all goes well means it has to be a very appealing choice.

I reckon a dynamic play-caller is their best bet, and possibly holding on to Wade Phillips at defensive co-ordinator given he has had two quality years there and can't take too much blame for defensive struggles this year in my opinion.

Itssoeasy

Sure its not as if he has that many beating down his door.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000293323/article/tim-tebow-offered-contract-by-italys-milano-seamen

windy shepard henderson

interview of the year!!!

windy shepard henderson

windy shepard henderson

the full interview ^^^^ very funny

JaMarcus Hustle

nerd69

even though there a division rival i sympathise with skins fans cant imagine how much this season sucks for them.

They've had years of being piss poor finally last year they had a shining light with the team rallying around rg3 but that seems to be falling apart now and worst of all (genuinely cant believe how bad this must feel) they dont have a 1st rounder and it looks like that first rounder will be top 3.

Honestly even the teams that are perennially bad have the promise of a huge draft pick and beyond that the draft is the sole bit of football madness during what must be the most painfully long offseason in sports.

Hazys

Leaked training footage of the Patriots' playoff game plan:






Original video of Mr Brady Perfect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iK7vRYeY3U

Arawn

Anyone else think the redskins situation is turning into stupidity at this point?

rockonollie

Arawn wrote: »

Anyone else think the redskins situation is turning into stupidity at this point?

I don't know why the ownership needs to say anything......it's a good call for the coach to bench RG3.....he's never been given the chance to fully recover from his injury las year, what's the point in putting him out there when their season is already over.

Arawn

rockonollie wrote: »

I don't know why the ownership needs to say anything......it's a good call for the coach to bench RG3.....he's never been given the chance to fully recover from his injury las year, what's the point in putting him out there when their season is already over.

he hasn't benched him though! he said he might. Imo he's looking for the sack and snyder isn giving it to him