The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread

Chucky the tree

HigginsJ wrote: »

I think Brees & Luck are the only ones likely to threaten in. It all depends on how many more years Manning plays on for.

I think Luck could be a real threat in the long time. He has taken another step up this year (on course for over 40tds this year). He is already one of the top 5 QB's (with Manning, Brady, Brees & ARod) in the league & even though Wayne won't be around much longer he has a few nice young weapons already.

Obviously you can never count on injuries but you would think he has the physique for it. He may also get the added bonus of 18 game seasons coming soon which would tilt the balance in his favour.

Top 5 QB? Having a laugh? He's extremely over-rated and not top 5, or even close to it. Rivers is a long distance ahead of him at least.

Son Of A Vidic

Peyton, Tom & Dree played a good few years in the league before QB protection rules were significantly beefed up from 2008 onwards. Any young quality QB today or those that will come into the league. Don't face the same the kinda tackling/hits that the older Vets had to put up with. And with it now being a heavy pass happy league, Yardage records & TD's records are more likely to fall more in the future. No guarantees though, an O lineman gets backed up into a QB and can blow out a knee, or compound fracture a Tibia and end a career in the blink of an eye.

HigginsJ

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Top 5 QB? Having a laugh? He's extremely over-rated and not top 5, or even close to it. Rivers is a long distance ahead of him at least.

How do you reckon him overrated? He has been everything he was billed to be and then some. If I was starting a franchise in the morning the pick would be him or ARod. I would have him at 4 at the moment behind ARod, Manning, Brees.

You also just list Rivers (who is obviously darn good) but give me a few others that put him no where close to top 5?

He has led his team to the playoffs in both of his 1st 2 seasons & well on his way to his 3rd straight playoffs. The following are his achievements to date


NFL records and achievements
Most passing yards in a single game by a rookie quarterback: 433 (vs Miami Dolphins) (11/4/12)
Most passing yards by a rookie in a single season: 4,374
Most 300+ yards passing games by a rookie QB (6)
Most pass attempts by a rookie in a single season: 627
Most wins by a #1 pick QB in his rookie season (11)
Most game-winning drives by a rookie quarterback (7)
Most fourth quarter comebacks by a rookie quarterback (7)
Most passing yards for a quarterback through his first 2 seasons (8,196)
Second rookie quarterback in NFL history to throw for 4,000 passing yards (Cam Newton was first in 2011).
Second most total yards for a rookie in NFL history (4,629).
Tied for most wins (14) through first 20 starts for a QB drafted first overall with John Elway
Fifth highest passing yards total in a playoff game (443, Wild-Card game against the Kansas City Chiefs on January 4, 2014).

He has also led 8 4th quarter comebacks and 11 game winning drives.

JaMarcusHustle

Luck is good, but I think there's a difference between saying you'd pick him as your franchise QB and saying he's a top 5 QB. The former is true because he has youth on his side and obviously you wouldn't be a very good GM if you chose a veteran over Luck who looks like he could match their level of play in the future. But he's not there yet, and at this moment in time I agree with Chuckie. Brady, Brees, Manning, Rodgers and Rivers are the clear top 5 imo. Luck would be a very distant 6th imo, but obviously with the huge potential to leap higher up that list. At this moment time, I think he is overrated as people seem to think he's fulfilled that massive potential already. He has a long way to go.

HigginsJ

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

Luck is good, but I think there's a difference between saying you'd pick him as your franchise QB and saying he's a top 5 QB. The former is true because he has youth on his side and obviously you wouldn't be a very good GM if you chose a veteran over Luck who looks like he could match their level of play in the future. But he's not there yet, and at this moment in time I agree with Chuckie. Brady, Brees, Manning, Rodgers and Rivers are the clear top 5 imo. Luck would be a very distant 6th imo, but obviously with the huge potential to leap higher up that list. At this moment time, I think he is overrated as people seem to think he's fulfilled that massive potential already. He has a long way to go.

I agree there is a big difference between the two scenarios ok. That being said I stand by my ranking but I can have no issue with anyone who would put Rivers in the top 5 instead of him.

He does indeed have a way to go to fulfill his potential but that fact alone makes it scary as to how good he could become.

Chucky the tree

All of those are great rookie stats, but they just that, great rookie stats. As Jamarcus points out if we're talking about the next ten year then yea he's high on the list. If we're talking based currently then he's miles behind Rodgers, Brees, Manning, Brady, and Rivers. You've then got guys like Ryan, Wilson, Kapernick and Newton who are probably on a similar level to him. Manning and Rotheisberger have the rings and pedigree to be in contention as well. Luck needs to prove a lot more before he's considered an elite QB.

Billy86

nerd69 wrote: »

so all he has to do is average 2 tds a game from his very first game and play 16 years in the nfl injury free

It won't be easy, but to be fair 2 TDs a game is "only" 32 a season. Again its a high number, but not impossible for someone to average since 40+ seasons are not the rarity they were before 2004. What will be interesting is how much Peyton can stretch it out before he calls it a day, though.

Billy86

HigginsJ wrote: »

I agree there is a big difference between the two scenarios ok. That being said I stand by my ranking but I can have no issue with anyone who would put Rivers in the top 5 instead of him.

He does indeed have a way to go to fulfill his potential but that fact alone makes it scary as to how good he could become.

Rivers has been the MVP so far this season, and was the best QB not named Manning in the league last year too. With all due respect to Luck who is very, very good at this point in time I just don't really see any way to put in a solid argument that he has been better than Rivers over the last 1.5 seasons.

kryogen

Rivers has always had the ability, he is a fantastic qb, he just needs that ring to gain the proper recognition. They have an outside chance this season but I wouldn't bet on it.

Putin

Billy86 wrote: »

Rivers has been the MVP so far this season, and was the best QB not named Manning in the league last year too.

You mentioned Rivers and Manning, but I'd also be throwing in Brady after what he did last year. He started the season with an annihilated receiving corp and carries the team to the AFC title game. All this despite being written off by all the experts at the start of the season. Ignoring stuff like that makes the MVP a joke imo. Manning has also won a few MVP's that bypassed more deserving players down the years. He also had the best O line & receiving corp in the league last year. Rodgers, Brady, Bree's & Rivers would have put up similar numbers if they had those luxuries imo. But in an age of dumbed down media and short attention spans. Gaudy numbers always look nicer, compared to a player or team who overcame a lot of adversity.

Billy86

Putin wrote: »

You mentioned Rivers and Manning, but I'd also be throwing in Brady after what he did last year. He started the season with an annihilated receiving corp and carries the team to the AFC title game. All this despite being written off by all the experts at the start of the season. Ignoring stuff like that makes the MVP a joke imo. Manning has also won a few MVP's that bypassed more deserving players down the years. He also had the best O line & receiving corp in the league last year. Rodgers, Brady, Bree's & Rivers would have put up similar numbers if they had those luxuries imo. But in an age of dumbed down media and short attention spans. Gaudy numbers always look nicer, compared to a player or team who overcame a lot of adversity.

Brady did come back extremely strong, but he (understandably) struggled earlier in the season quite a good deal - he was still keeping the ball moving enough to be sure, but I think the defence deserved the most credit for the early season run, and Brady was top quality in November but had a small regression in December, with BLOUNTSMASH the star of the divisional playoff game. Nothing again Brady who did will in very difficult circumstances and I do remember there being a tonne of drops which he can't do much about of course, but I think it's an exaggeration to say he carried the team.

I'm a huge fan of Peyton, but I do agree about him getting what I'd call "the Messi treatment" (e.g. ignore his outrageously fortuitous situation in terms of surrounding talent/setup, praise everything he does well endlessly, and pretend all the bad things about him just didn't happen). His coming second in MVP voting in 2012 above Rodgers who was playing basically without an offensive line or running game and injured receivers all over the place, or Brady who did more with less than Manning was a farce - but then again, the award typically is.

taidghbaby

Rivers has been the consistently best QB this year! Rodgers has flashed moments of brilliance over the last few weeks which shows IMO that he is the best QB in the league when at his best! Manning has looked in second gear to me so far, but that has been more than enough for the Broncos to win most games!

Breese has not been good by his normal standards! Brady started poorly but has been better the last few weeks! I haven't seen much of Ben and the steelers so I am not sure if he is playing well or not but the results and numbers would make it look like he isn't!

As for Luck I'm a Colts fan so obviously biased! But I also watch every play of every game (most twice) so I think I'm in a good position to evaluate him! At his best he does things that only Rodgers can compare with! His consistency has improved drastically this year, but he still makes more mistakes than Rivers, Rodgers and Manning! I'm personally not interested in ranking players because the NFL is so matchup dependant and changeable from week to week but to say that Luck is vastly overrated is complete and utter nonsense and is from the Skip Bayless school of analysis!

Billy86

Get back to me when Luck does this...



Just kidding.

He can do some incredible things alright though, and the sky is the limit for the guy. I do think some people are getting a little ahead of themselves on him though (and have been since he was a rookie) but he is headed quite quickly in the right direction. One thing he still has to improve as you mentioned is ball retention - I think he has the second most giveaways in the league after Nick Foles which is quite an important statistic. Still, most encouraging is that his game is becoming more and more refined - his pass percentage went from 54% as a rookie, to 60% last year, and is currently on 66% this year, that is a drastic improvement.

nerd69

Billy86 wrote: »

It won't be easy, but to be fair 2 TDs a game is "only" 32 a season. Again its a high number, but not impossible for someone to average since 40+ seasons are not the rarity they were before 2004. What will be interesting is how much Peyton can stretch it out before he calls it a day, though.

32 a season is a very very good number jay cutler has never done it, tom brady has only done it 3 times, aaron rogers has only done it twice, big ben only once, stafford only once and largely due to working with one of the great receivers, cam has yet to hit 32.

i understand that some of the bigger names hit way over 32 in some of the years they did but to average 32 over a career is a serous feat the only young qb at the moment i can see attempting to beat it is luck and that will be if he manages to avoid injures

Paully D

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet
Who else could be traded? I’m told #Bucs are getting tons of calls on WR Vincent Jackson. TB loves him as a player, but considers everything

Hazys

Paully D wrote: »

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet
Who else could be traded? I’m told #Bucs are getting tons of calls on WR Vincent Jackson. TB loves him as a player, but considers everything

His contract would probably have too much dead money to trade http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/tampa-bay-buccaneers/vincent-jackson/

Putin

Billy86 wrote: »

I think it's an exaggeration to say he carried the team.

If leading your team to five 4th quarter comeback wins isn’t carrying a team. Then I don’t know what is tbh.

HigginsJ

Luck just tied Mannings Colt record of 5 straight 300 yard games.

Hulk Hands

Rivers game still to go tonight, but leading the league in yards by a distance and td's, Luck would be firmly in MVP contention at this point. I'd have him as comfortably the best QB outside of the now big 5 (including Rivers). However i'd be surprised if hes not a firm member of the elite group by year end

Billy86

Putin wrote: »

If leading your team to five 4th quarter comeback wins isn’t carrying a team. Then I don’t know what is tbh.

By that logic, Tim Tebow carried the Broncos a few years back. Like I said, the defence played a big role in a number of those games, as did the running game at times. Given the circumstances he had a good season, but I don't think he can be put up there with Rivers for last season.

Billy86

nerd69 wrote: »

32 a season is a very very good number jay cutler has never done it, tom brady has only done it 3 times, aaron rogers has only done it twice, big ben only once, stafford only once and largely due to working with one of the great receivers, cam has yet to hit 32.

i understand that some of the bigger names hit way over 32 in some of the years they did but to average 32 over a career is a serous feat the only young qb at the moment i can see attempting to beat it is luck and that will be if he manages to avoid injures

Of course it is a big number, but my point is that it is not impossible to hit on average. Rodgers in his 5 full seasons has averaged 34, he did miss 7 games last year but still had 21, and this season he is on 18 through 7 games. Despite missing half a season, he has averaged 31.6 per season since he began starting. Stafford and Ben are not in that bracket. It's not a record that will be beaten often or anything, but I do think that with how increasingly biased towards the pass the league has become, it is far, far from unbeatable. The real tasks will be starting early on and young, and avoiding injuries.

Billy86

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Rivers game still to go tonight, but leading the league in yards by a distance and td's, Luck would be firmly in MVP contention at this point. I'd have him as comfortably the best QB outside of the now big 5 (including Rivers). However i'd be surprised if hes not a firm member of the elite group by year end

He took a step closer, but he still has to get ahead of Rodgers in my opinion also - 141 of 211 for 1,674 yards, 17 TDs and only 1 INT (only 2 turnovers including fumbles). Luck has 2 more TDs but 6 more INTs and 7 more turnovers while he also has more yards, but Rodgers has better completion percentage and YPA. Both have similar performing rushing attacks, offensive line struggles and defensive performances also.

Putin

Billy86 wrote: »

By that logic, Tim Tebow carried the Broncos a few years back.

Comparing a clown to a legend is at worst, probably an insult to Pats fans and at best, pretty nonsensical imo.

Billy86 wrote: »

Given the circumstances he had a good season, but I don't think he can be put up there with Rivers for last season.

I can't see how Rivers had a better season, there wasn't much between their final numbers. And since Rivers didn't start the season with a non-existent offense. Sorry, I don't see it. He doesn't even enter into for me.

Putin

nerd69 wrote: »

32 a season is a very very good number jay cutler has never done it, tom brady has only done it 3 times 4 times, aaron rogers has only done it twice, big ben only once, stafford only once and largely due to working with one of the great receivers, cam has yet to hit 32.

Fyp.

Hazys

Why watch the game 10 feet in front of you, when you can watch it on the world's largest HD TV




General WTF?

poldebruin

Great ad for Nike though.

skippymac6

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Rivers game still to go tonight, but leading the league in yards by a distance and td's, Luck would be firmly in MVP contention at this point. I'd have him as comfortably the best QB outside of the now big 5 (including Rivers). However i'd be surprised if hes not a firm member of the elite group by year end

Yep have to agree here too. Brees, Rodgers, Manning and Brady have always been the "top 4" and Rivers has joined them now the past 18 months. Luck is steadily improving and I'd bump him into that top 5 or make a top 6 if you were asking me who would you like to be leading a game winning drive (as he's nerveless it seems) but he does have to cut out the odd errant throw. I take into account that if you take that gunslinger mentality away from him that he isn't the same guy then but he still throws a few too many picks. If he doesn't finish the season as a part of that elite group then he won't be far away.

Billy86

Putin wrote: »

Comparing a clown to a legend is at worst, probably an insult to Pats fans and at best, pretty nonsensical imo.

But Tebow did have a lot of fourth quarter comebacks, so he carried that Denver team all the same, right? Personally I don't find fourth quarter comebacks to be a very important or telling part of a quarterbacks game, is what I'm saying here.

I can't see how Rivers had a better season, there wasn't much between their final numbers. And since Rivers didn't start the season with a non-existent offense. Sorry, I don't see it. He doesn't even enter into for me.

They had the same number of INTs and around the same yards, but Rivers had 32 TDs to Bradys 25, a significant 1.3 better YPA, completed a full nine percent more of his attempts, had a QBR of nearly twenty points better than Brady, and 6 less fumbles. While he had the better receivers of the two Brady had the better run game to support him.

Like I said, nothing against Brady but Rivers was clearly the better of the two last year.

JaMarcusHustle

Billy86 wrote: »

Personally I don't find fourth quarter comebacks to be a very important or telling part of a quarterbacks game, is what I'm saying here.

Couldn't agree more - one of the most bollox statistics out there considering how much it's brought up.

Shedite27

Billy86 wrote: »

Personally I don't find fourth quarter comebacks to be a very important or telling part of a quarterbacks game, is what I'm saying here.

YEah me too.

Surely an elite quarterback will require less 4th quarter comebacks