The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread

Shedite27

phatkev wrote: »

Just out of interest who would be your top 5 QBs this season?

Peyton, Rodgers, Brady, Brees are the top 4, not sure how you could argue with them. 5th spot is Luck for me.

I can see how you could have made an argument for Rivers a few weeks ago but his last 3 games (against 3 playoff contenders) he's been pants. You think any of the 5 above wouldn't have done better than this....

Kansas (Lost - 205yds - 2 td's - 1 int)
Denver (Lost - 252yds - 3 td's - 2 int)
Miami (Lost - 138yds - 0 td's - 3 int)

Shedite27

Billy86 wrote: »

Go on then, name a QB outside of Brady, Brees, Manning and Rogers who has clearly been better than Rivers over the last season and a half.

Better's tough to quantify.

If I was GM of other NFl teams, and you asked me would I take Rivers over the current QB, there's probably 16 teams I would say no.

darklighter

Shedite27 wrote: »

Better's tough to quantify.

If I was GM of other NFl teams, and you asked me would I take Rivers over the current QB, there's probably 16 teams I would say no.

Name them please?

JaMarcusHustle

Shedite27 wrote: »

Better's tough to quantify.

If I was GM of other NFl teams, and you asked me would I take Rivers over the current QB, there's probably 16 teams I would say no.

darklighter wrote: »

Name them?

And we're talking about current form, over the last year/year and a half. So age shouldn't be brought into it because that was never part of this discussion.

darklighter

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

And we're talking about current form, over the last year/year and a half. So age shouldn't be brought into it because that was never part of this discussion.

Definitely, I want to know the SIXTEEN QBs that he would take right now instead of Rivers! Im looking forward to a good chuckle

OAOB

Shedite27 wrote: »

Peyton, Rodgers, Brady, Brees are the top 4, not sure how you could argue with them. 5th spot is Luck for me.

I can see how you could have made an argument for Rivers a few weeks ago but his last 3 games (against 3 playoff contenders) he's been pants. You think any of the 5 above wouldn't have done better than this....

Kansas (Lost - 205yds - 2 td's - 1 int)
Denver (Lost - 252yds - 3 td's - 2 int)
Miami (Lost - 138yds - 0 td's - 3 int)

Brady has had some shocking games this year, Brees has not been to his usual standard. If we're talking career wise then there's no arguement but Rivers has been elite the last year and a half.

Have you actually watched many Chargers games?

Shedite27

darklighter wrote: »

Definitely, I want to know the SIXTEEN QBs that he would take right now instead of Rivers! Im looking forward to a good chuckle

I said if I was the head coach of one of these teams and you asked me to swap the current Qb for Rivers....

Peyton
Brees
Brady
Rodgers
Ryan
Romo
Roethlisberger
Wilson
Newton
Flacco
Eli
Luck
Palmer
Stafford

That's 14, I'd take Rivers if I was Gm of any of the other 18 franchises.

It's just an opinion, don't really rate Rivers, and yes, I see a lot of Chargers, live in Vancouver so end up seeing more of the West Coast teams than most.

Chucky the tree

List is golden.

Shedite27

Shedite27 wrote: »

I said if I was the head coach of one of these teams and you asked me to swap the current Qb for Rivers....

Peyton
Brees
Brady
Rodgers
Ryan
Romo
Roethlisberger
Wilson
Newton
Flacco
Eli
Luck
Palmer
Stafford

That's 14, I'd take Rivers if I was Gm of any of the other 18 franchises.

It's just an opinion, don't really rate Rivers, and yes, I see a lot of Chargers, live in Vancouver so end up seeing more of the West Coast teams than most.

The ones in bold would snap at Rivers given the chance. The only one I'd be unsure of is Romo in his current form.

GoldFour4

Shedite27 wrote: »

I said if I was the head coach of one of these teams and you asked me to swap the current Qb for Rivers....

Peyton
Brees
Brady
Rodgers
Ryan
Romo
Roethlisberger
Wilson
Newton
Flacco
Eli
Luck
Palmer
Stafford

That's 14, I'd take Rivers if I was Gm of any of the other 18 franchises.

It's just an opinion, don't really rate Rivers, and yes, I see a lot of Chargers, live in Vancouver so end up seeing more of the West Coast teams than most.

Wow, I'd take Rivers over Newton in a heartbeat, and I'm a Carolina fan who loves Cam. I think Rivers makes the team an awful lot better in the majority of the above examples.

glued

1. Rodgers
2. Manning
3. Brees
4. Rivers
5. Brady

IMO

Dohnny Jepp

glued wrote: »

1. Rodgers
2. Manning
3. Brees
4. Rivers
5. Brady

IMO

1. Rodgers - Manning - Brees - Brady
5. Rivers

Like that for me.

raze_them_all_

Shedite27 wrote: »

I said if I was the head coach of one of these teams and you asked me to swap the current Qb for Rivers....

Peyton
Brees
Brady
Rodgers
Ryan
Romo
Roethlisberger
Wilson
Newton
Flacco
Eli
Luck
Palmer
Stafford

That's 14, I'd take Rivers if I was Gm of any of the other 18 franchises.

It's just an opinion, don't really rate Rivers, and yes, I see a lot of Chargers, live in Vancouver so end up seeing more of the West Coast teams than most.

wow, does anyone even consider Eli to be a top ten qb these days?? has played dreadful for 2 and a half years now.

Dohnny Jepp

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

wow, does anyone even consider Eli to be a top ten qb these days?? has played dreadful for 2 and a half years now.

Just those people that think 16 teams would pass on Rivers!

nerd69

Shedite27 wrote: »

I said if I was the head coach of one of these teams and you asked me to swap the current Qb for Rivers....

Peyton
Brees
Brady
Rodgers
Ryan
Romo
Roethlisberger
Wilson
Newton
Flacco
Eli
Luck
Palmer
Stafford

That's 14, I'd take Rivers if I was Gm of any of the other 18 franchises.

It's just an opinion, don't really rate Rivers, and yes, I see a lot of Chargers, live in Vancouver so end up seeing more of the West Coast teams than most.

good god what are you talking about.... ok lets go

matt ryan looked great at the start of his career he looked like he could be special but he's been downright terrible the last two years he's a different player to what he was

romo can't win a playoff game and routinely ****s the bed come december

flacco had one great run to win the Super Bowl other than that he's been a serviceable qb.

eli... dont make me laugh two great postseason runs but he's had one good regular season ever. other than that he has been a very poor qb iv watched him play my team twice a year and never worried about him.

palmer is again a serviceable qb he's not as good as rivers

stafford is overrated because he's been able to just chuck it up to one of the all time great receivers a few times a game.

with regards the rest bar the big 4 the argument could possible be made but i would imaging he's been statistically better than any of them. he's certainly looked consistently better over the last two years and he has arguably had a worse team than all bar arguably big ben,cam newton and andrew luck

to be honest i think its a fair enough argument to say he may not be top 5 but not being top 16 is is just wrong. theres no logical argument to be made there and if you truly believe that i would question either how many games you watch or your nfl knowledge

Shedite27

Rivers is too much of a hot head for my liking. Lets his anger put him off his game too much. He's matured somewhat in recent years but he's still nowhere near getting a ring. Probowl yes, Superbowl no. Those other QB's know when to cool it when needed. There's only so far that arm strength and accuracy can take you, Rivers' decision making and attitude are the main reasons I don't consider him top 5 (compared with Romo, Flacco Ryan etc).

Billy86

Shedite27 wrote: »

Peyton, Rodgers, Brady, Brees are the top 4, not sure how you could argue with them. 5th spot is Luck for me.

I can see how you could have made an argument for Rivers a few weeks ago but his last 3 games (against 3 playoff contenders) he's been pants. You think any of the 5 above wouldn't have done better than this....

Kansas (Lost - 205yds - 2 td's - 1 int)
Denver (Lost - 252yds - 3 td's - 2 int)
Miami (Lost - 138yds - 0 td's - 3 int)

You do realise those are literally the top three pass defences in the league going by yards per attempt?

Now let's take a look and compare their full seasons:
Week 1:
Rivers vs. Cardinals: 26/36 (58.3%), 238 yards (6.6ypa), 1 TD, 1 INT, 75.9 QBR
Luck vs. Broncos: 35/53 (66%), 370 yards (7ypa), 2 TD, 3 INT, 83.1 QBR

Week 2
Rivers vs. Seahawks: 28/37 (75.7%), 284 yards (7.7ypa), 3 TD, 0 INT, 124.2 QBR
Luck vs. Eagles: 20/34 (58.8%), 172 yards (5.1ypa), 3 TD, 1 INT, 89.3 QBR

Week 3
Rivers vs. Bills: 18/25 (72%), 256 yards (10.2ypa), 2 TD, 0 INT, 131.4 QBR
Luck vs. Jaguars: 31/39 (79.5%), 370 yards (9.5ypa), 4 TD, 0 INT, 140.4 QBR

Week 4
Rivers vs. Jaguars: 29/39 (74.4%), 377 yards (9.7ypa), 3 TD, 0 INT, 130.0 QBR
Luck vs. Titans: 29/41 (70.7%), 393 yards (9.6ypa), 4 TD, 1 INT, 123.3 QBR

Week 5
Rivers vs. Jets: 20/28 (71.4%), 288 yards (10.3ypa), 3 TD, 1 INT, 125.3 QBR
Luck vs. Ravens: 32/'49 (65.3%), 312 yards (6.4ypa), 1 TD, 2 INT, 72.8 QBR

Week 6
Rivers vs. Raiders: 22/34 (64.7%), 313 yards (9.2ypa), 3 TD, 0 INT, 123.;8 QBR
Luck vs. Texans: 25/44 (56.8%), 370 yards (8.4ypa), 3 TD, 1 INT, 97.7 QBR

Week 7
Rivers vs. Chiefs: 17/31 (54.8%), 205 yards (6.6ypa), 2 TD, 1 INT, 83.4 QBR
Luck vs. Bengals: 27/42 (64.3%), 344 yards (8.2ypa), 2 TD, 0 INT, 105.7 QBR

Week 8
Rivers vs. Broncos: 30/41 (73.2%), 252 yards (6.1ypa), 3 TD, 1 INT, 92.7 QBR
Luck vs. Steelers: 26/45 (57.8%), 400 yards (8.9ypa), 3 TD, 2 INT, 91.0 QBR

Week 9:
Rivers vs. Dolphins: 12/23 (52.2%), 138 yards (6.0ypa), 0 TD, 3 INT, 31.0 QBR
Luck vs. Giants: ???

Totals:
Rivers: 197/294 (67%), 2,351 (8.0ypa), 20 TD, 8 INT, 102.6 QBR
Luck: 225/347 (64.7%), 2,731 (7.9ypa), 22 TD, 9 INT, 99.2 QBR

So even despite the horror show that was last night, Rivers still has a higher completion percentage, yards per attempt, TD:INT ratio and QBR than Luck. He has done this with a worse running game than Luck (tied worst YPC and worst rushing yards, compared to the Colts who rank 22nd and 15th, respectively), less talent at WR, and against probably superior defences on average (both offensive lines are very similar).

It is because of this that in the 'Total QBR' rating (which allows for drops, passes thrown away, pass protection, yards after catch, scrambling yards, etc), Rivers is in 2nd place only behind Peyton Manning with an 83.1 rating, while Luck is in 9th with a 72.8 rating. ColdHardFootballFacts.com also uses their own system, which has Rivers in 3rd behind Rodgers and Manning, with Luck in 7th. FootballOutsiders.com has a system that judges QBs on their 'total value' and their 'value per play' and in both of those Rivers is in 2nd with Luck in 3rd (though it has yet to be updated for this week, so Luck could overtake him tonight depending on what happens). As well as the standard NFL QBR, all of these systems ranking Rivers higher than Luck this season kind of points to something. Which is...

Basically, no Luck has not at all, in any way, been 'clearly better' than Rivers this year.

And last year?
Rivers: 378/555 (69.5%)... 4,478 yards (8.2ypa)... 32 TD, 11 INT... 104.5 QBR
Luck: 343/570 (60.2%)... 3,822 yards (6.7ypa)... 23 TD, 9 INT... 87.0 QBR

So no, Rivers pretty much walked that too. Now I do fully believe that Luck could be amongst the very best in the league down the line, and he has been doing a quality job improving some things like completion percentage year on year - he might even be the best in the whole league at some point. Fifteen years from now Luck will have had the better career of the two. But neither this season nor last has Luck at all be clearly better than Rivers - it's a close call this year and Rivers was clearly better in 2013.

Billy86

Shedite27 wrote: »

Peyton
Brees
Brady
Rodgers
Ryan
Romo
Roethlisberger
Wilson
Newton
Flacco
Eli
Luck
Palmer
Stafford

Age isn't a factor, so the ones in red are laughable, and the ones in blue I definitely disagree with. In terms of performance over the last season and a half, Wilson is probably the only guy outside the top four a legit argument can be made for.

And let's not take this as a "these teams wouldn't want to switch their QB for Rivers" point because while say the Steelers would likely not want to, there is no chance the Chargers would want to swap Rivers for Roethlisberger. So instead if you were to offer these QBs to a team without one (e.g. Jets, Raiders) "on loan" for a season or two - because again, age is not a factor.

Shedite27

There's stats to prove anything in the NFL, like I said, Rivers lacks qualities (leadership etc) that I think will forever hold him back. If you look at "statistics only" the lists of best QB's ever would be very different.

j8wk2feszrnpao

I'd take Luck and Big Ben ahead of Rivers.
Since 2009, the Chargers are 38:35 in the regular season with Rivers at the helm.

Shedite27

Billy86 wrote: »

And let's not take this as a "these teams wouldn't want to switch their QB for Rivers" point

That was the only question asked :rolleyes:

Obviously the answer looks silly if you change the question Billy!

OAOB

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I'd take Luck and Big Ben ahead of Rivers.
Since 2009, the Chargers are 38:35 in the regular season with Rivers at the helm.

FFS Chargers would only have half those wins if it wasn't for Rivers, he single handedly carried really bad teams for 2or3 years while nearly getting killed by Norv Turner trying to throw deep behind an O-line that couldn't block.
Rivers has been everything for SD and no way does he lack leadership, I've never heard any past team mates say anything but good things about him.
He is a hot head but that's worked for him more often than not, his team mates love him for it

Billy86

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I'd take Luck and Big Ben ahead of Rivers.
Since 2009, the Chargers are 38:35 in the regular season with Rivers at the helm.

They had massive coaching issues in 2011 and 2012 to be fair, and in that time Rivers didn't play great - that said he only regressed to the level of pretty much everyone Shedite mentioned in their um, list above. Since Norv Turner got sacked, he has been right back playing at his best but last year they had some comical losses on special teams if I recall.

Win/loss is a part of a QBs game of course, there are 52 other players on the team. It's why the 49ers and Kaepernick had as many wins as Brady's Patriots last year, as did the Texans and Matt Schaub the year prior (while both they and the Kaep/Alex Smith 49ers had more wins than Rodgers and the Packers.

I can see why people would make arguments for Luck/Ben this year (I would still go Rivers personally, certainly up until last night anyway), but it is by no means hands down and I typically don't like to rate QBs on just half a season which is why I have brought up last year, in which Rivers was clearly better than both of them.

Billy86

Shedite27 wrote: »

There's stats to prove anything in the NFL, like I said, Rivers lacks qualities (leadership etc) that I think will forever hold him back. If you look at "statistics only" the lists of best QB's ever would be very different.

Funny that, YOU were the one who brought stats into it. It is quite literally the post you started off with. And then followed on with.

You wanted to argue with stats, and you lost the argument. It's that simple really.

Shedite27 wrote: »

That was the only question asked :rolleyes:

Obviously the answer looks silly if you change the question Billy!

No, the only questioned asked was "name a QB outside of Brady, Brees, Manning and Rogers who has clearly been better than Rivers over the last season and a half" - you can find it on post 9,721.

You see that's the thing about questions in debate, you can't ask them to yourself. Which is what you tried to do there by switching it to "If I was GM of other NFl teams, and you asked me would I take Rivers over the current QB, there's probably 16 teams I would say no" in post 9,723

Failing to answer questions and then asking new ones to yourself, which you have insane answers to, while desperately shifting the goalposts over and over... now that's silly.

Shedite27

Billy86 wrote: »

You wanted to argue with stats, and you lost the argument. It's that simple really.

Jaysus Billy, take a breath pal.

It's my opinion. I can't lose my opinion FFS :rolleyes:

Billy86

Shedite27 wrote: »

Jaysus Billy, take a breath pal.

It's my opinion. I can't lose my opinion FFS :rolleyes:

You started off with stats, and then backtracked by trying to write off the usefulness of them because they kind of completely disproved your point.

Still people can have opinions obviously, and opinions can also be wrong, obviously.

Son Of A Vidic

OAOB wrote: »

Brady has had some shocking games this year

Are you basing this on numbers on a stat sheet, or did you watch those games? Because if you did watch the first four games of the season in their entirety. Then it would have been impossible to miss how poor the Pats O line was. And this poor O line play was also there for much of last year. No QB can play behind a non-existent O line and not be significantly affected by it. Not Brady, not Manning, nobody. Particularly when you're a classic pocket QB not known for being mobile. Up until the Bengals game, Brady was the most sacked, pressured, hurried and knocked down QB in the league. Since the Bengals game, the O line has stepped up and improved a lot. And thus it is no surprise or coincidence that Brady has been again performing to his normal standard.

j8wk2feszrnpao

OAOB wrote: »

FFS.....

You can FFS all you want.
My opinion differs to yours, no need to throw a hissy fit over it.

Billy86

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Are you basing this on numbers on a stat sheet, or did you watch those games? Because if you did watch the first four games of the season in their entirety. Then it would have been impossible to miss how poor the Pats O line was. And this poor O line play was also there for much of last year. No QB can play behind a non-existent O line and not be significantly affected by it. Not Brady, not Manning, nobody. Particularly when you're a classic pocket QB not known for being mobile. Up until the Bengals game, Brady was the most sacked, pressured, hurried and knocked down QB in the league. Since the Bengals game, the O line has stepped up and improved a lot. And thus it is no surprise or coincidence that Brady has been again performing to his normal standard.

I agree here... but only because it made Rodgers in 2012 look even more unbelievable than he already is.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Billy86 wrote: »

They had massive coaching issues in 2011 and 2012 to be fair, and in that time Rivers didn't play great - that said he only regressed to the level of pretty much everyone Shedite mentioned in their um, list above. Since Norv Turner got sacked, he has been right back playing at his best but last year they had some comical losses on special teams if I recall.

Win/loss is a part of a QBs game of course, there are 52 other players on the team. It's why the 49ers and Kaepernick had as many wins as Brady's Patriots last year, as did the Texans and Matt Schaub the year prior (while both they and the Kaep/Alex Smith 49ers had more wins than Rodgers and the Packers.

I can see why people would make arguments for Luck/Ben this year (I would still go Rivers personally, certainly up until last night anyway), but it is by no means hands down and I typically don't like to rate QBs on just half a season which is why I have brought up last year, in which Rivers was clearly better than both of them.

I don't put it all down to Rivers in that time, but I think it's valid to bring it up when discussing him.
I think he's a good QB; I just don't rate him in the top 5 myself.