Trade Unions will be crushed

Rb

johnathan woss wrote: »

Well you said that violence against the strikers would be "not unwarranted", i.e. warranted.

So at the very least you would not defend a striker who was being attacked by thugs. Why would you defend someone against a warranted attack ?

Indeed, if you feel that violence was warranted why exactly would you not be "bashing heads" yourself ?

It's very easy to leave a union if they disagree with the direction the union is going in and if they agree with holding the country to ransom and causing chaos merely to ensure they remain paid well above the odds at a time when the country can't afford it, I don't particularly care what happens to them.

I don't believe I said violence is ultimately warranted but you can interpret it as you like. With regards to why I wouldn't turn to violence myself, I'm just not a violent guy and don't like getting my hands dirty.

gerry28

who_ru wrote: »

when you were sticking it to the taxpayer everything was great

Don't forget this country is in the state its in because of the crazy property boom (helped on by FF) and rampant profiteering by sections of the private sector.

Where builders, plumbers, carpenters, tilers etc were demanding a weeks worth of my wages for a days work.

Shop keepers, landlords, publicans, garages, resturants all bumping up their prices and giggling like hyenas as they counted the money.

The public service was slow and steady, simply trying to keep up with the rising standard of living. Its not the other way about.

Stark

seangal wrote: »

in production ect
IBEC put the cost at 400 million due to people not at work and the cost of all the cancellation ect

Do people in the private sector not get holidays and sick days anymore? A typical worker will get 21 vacation days a year. Either the economy is losing billions every year due to leave entitlements or IBEC is overstating the actual cost.

murphaph

gerry28 wrote: »

The public service was slow and steady, simply trying to keep up with the rising standard of living. Its not the other way about.

You sure about that?

:rolleyes:

Taxipete29

jank wrote: »

The Irish Unions in their current form need to be destroyed. There is always a place for unions in a western society but the Irish Unions are more like a mafia than a union. They dont care if the country goes under once "their" pension is guaranteed.

The cracks are showing though. Public opinion of the unions are at an all time low. People want the country to get on with it, stabilize the economy and go from their but we are still bickering about cuts that will have to be made remember each year for the next 3-4 years. Yet we are falling at the first hurdle. That IMO IS the Unions and the Government fault. The Unions have not destroyed the country, that was FF but they sure are trying to make up for lost time at the moment.

Look at it from the average PS workers point of view. They have all recieved a reduction in their take home pay through the pension levy( on a pension they are not all entitled to). They are being asked to take more cuts. Meanwhile the banks(who are one of the main causes of the problems to begin with) are being bailed out. Supported with tax-payers money and yet they still managed to pay a wage increase to workers. There is something wrong with that picture.

Its obvious we cant continue to fund the PS at the current level, but its a bit rich to expect people to just roll over and accept reductions in their wages when the only people the Govt are helping are the banks who had a huge part in causing the crisis through their irresponsible lending practices.

K-9

gerry28 wrote: »

Don't forget this country is in the state its in because of the crazy property boom (helped on by FF) and rampant profiteering by sections of the private sector.

Where builders, plumbers, carpenters, tilers etc were demanding a weeks worth of my wages for a days work.

Shop keepers, landlords, publicans, garages, resturants all bumping up their prices and giggling like hyenas as they counted the money.

The public service was slow and steady, simply trying to keep up with the rising standard of living. Its not the other way about.

All helped by Unions insisting on income tax cuts in so called pay talks.

Partnership was great until populist Unions starting dictating fiscal policy to a populist FF and Bertie.

Basically people got wage increases and tax cuts to have more money in their pocket to afford house prices, new cars and luxuries. That was great because of high VAT, VRT and Stamp Duties rolling in.

Now we have the treble whammy of low income taxes, nobody spending on houses, cars and luxuries and people in Billions of debt to finance it.

Unions pushed that agenda just as much as anybody else. Who else would moan about the cost of living while looking for pay rises?

The_Honeybadger

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Look at it from the average PS workers point of view. They have all recieved a reduction in their take home pay through the pension levy( on a pension they are not all entitled to). They are being asked to take more cuts. Meanwhile the banks(who are one of the main causes of the problems to begin with) are being bailed out. Supported with tax-payers money and yet they still managed to pay a wage increase to workers. There is something wrong with that picture.

Its obvious we cant continue to fund the PS at the current level, but its a bit rich to expect people to just roll over and accept reductions in their wages when the only people the Govt are helping are the banks who had a huge part in causing the crisis through their irresponsible lending practices.

Ain't life a bitch, I heard it put very well lately when someone said "and the real tragedy is that those f**ckers in the banks are going to have to make an awful lot of money before we can get back on track", the long and short of it is we need profitable banks or we are in for a long and painful ride. It is so maddening and frustrating that the top management at the banks are still in place as if nothing has happened while the normal joe soap suffers terribly. But we must move on from our anger at the banks and do whats best for the country, that involves deflating wages and costs to a sustainable level and one which represents our standing as a small economy on the edge of europe, PS pay is very high no matter how much they protest and it will be cut at some stage, but politicians need to show the way with a substantial reduction, getting rid of their outrageous ministerial pensions while still serving as TD's and state cars and the other freebies on the endless list of perks. Market forces are already forcing wages down throughout the economy and the PS can't remain immune, a couple of hundred people caused this, not the Private sector as a whole.

jank

funnyname wrote: »

If the unions are crushed will the Gardaí support the Government like the cops did in the UK?

Of course they will, they are servants of the state at the end of the day. If they dont you might as well declare a coup and install one of the beards as Taoiseach :rolleyes:

Sleepy

Taxipete29 wrote: »

breaking the Unions only benefits employers in the long term not workers

But *WE* are the employers. Every man, woman and child who's old enough to buy a CD in this country pays tax (even if only VAT). Ergo, breaking these unions is good for everyone.

We have strong employee protection legislation in this country (arguably too strong where minimum wage laws are concerned). The unions day was in the beginning of the last century, not this one.

jank

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Look at it from the average PS workers point of view. They have all recieved a reduction in their take home pay through the pension levy( on a pension they are not all entitled to).
.

Wrong, only temp workers are not entitled to the pension all other full time employees do get the pension. Do not pose a half truth as fact.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

They are being asked to take more cuts. Meanwhile the banks(who are one of the main causes of the problems to begin with) are being bailed out. Supported with tax-payers money and yet they still managed to pay a wage increase to workers. There is something wrong with that picture..

There is also something wrong with the picture that comprises of generally over paid securely employed civil servants taking money from those who have lost their job and surviving on 204 a week as what will happen in the budget. Reality check please!

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Its obvious we cant continue to fund the PS at the current level, but its a bit rich to expect people to just roll over and accept reductions in their wages when the only people the Govt are helping are the banks who had a huge part in causing the crisis through their irresponsible lending practices.

So it's obvious we cant afford the PS BUT fcuk it anyway we wont take a pay cut cause the government helped the banks... nice logic! So what do you want. The government to jail all the senior bankers, nationalise all the banks and THEN take pay cuts of say 3%....reality check please!

Taxipete29

Sleepy wrote: »

But *WE* are the employers. Every man, woman and child who's old enough to buy a CD in this country pays tax (even if only VAT). Ergo, breaking these unions is good for everyone.

We have strong employee protection legislation in this country (arguably too strong where minimum wage laws are concerned). The unions day was in the beginning of the last century, not this one.

We are not the employers in the private sector.

If you think that employees( both sectors) will be better off without Unions thats fine, but just remember its always been unions who have fought for workers rights and who will do so if they are gone or do you think we will never have an employer/employee dispute again in the future??

K-9

Taxipete29 wrote: »

We are not the employers in the private sector.

If you think that employees( both sectors) will be better off without Unions thats fine, but just remember its always been unions who have fought for workers rights and who will do so if they are gone or do you think we will never have an employer/employee dispute again in the future??

So its ok to bankrupt the state then? Come on.

You know pay has to be cut, pointing out the good things Unions have done in the past and ignoring the bad, will not stop that.

Taxipete29

jank wrote: »

Wrong, only temp workers are not entitled to the pension all other full time employees do get the pension. Do not pose a half truth as fact.

Yes but they still pay the levy even though they are not entitled to it. I am not wrong. Not everyone who pays the pension levy is entitled to a pension. Thats a fact

jank wrote: »

There is also something wrong with the picture that comprises of generally over paid securely employed civil servants taking money from those who have lost their job and surviving on 204 a week as what will happen in the budget. Reality check please!

Attitude reflects leadership

jank wrote: »

So it's obvious we cant afford the PS BUT fcuk it anyway we wont take a pay cut cause the government helped the banks... nice logic! So what do you want. The government to jail all the senior bankers, nationalise all the banks and THEN take pay cuts of say 3%....reality check please!

Well to start with there is at least one ex-banker who would of gone to prison if he lived in another country.

I think they should take a cut. I dont need a reality check, but I have a reasoned attitude to the situation which means I can look at it from both sides. I have not been blinded by the right-wing media bias that you seem to have swallowed like it was the Gospel according to St Brian. The PS and their Unions are not enemies of the state. They are a group of people trying to protect their pay and conditions, however misguided it may be they have that right. If the Govt was not so keen on buying votes over the last 12 years we probably wouldnt be in such a mess.

FF are the real problem in this country. If people put as much energy into removing the Govt as they do into calling for the PS to take wage cuts, then we could have an election and get some real leadership. Brian Cowen hasnt got the bottle to do the job. He is a panderer just like Bertie.

Taxipete29

K-9 wrote: »

So its ok to bankrupt the state then? Come on.

You know pay has to be cut, pointing out the good things Unions have done in the past and ignoring the bad, will not stop that.

I didnt say it was ok to bankrupt the state and I do know pay has to be cut. I dont really see why you are telling me to come on?? I am simply supporting the idea of Unions, I am not supporting the recent tactics, the unpaid leave or ICTU's recent economic recovery plan. The current Union leadership all had their snouts in the trough during the boom times and are not fit to be representing any ordainary workers( public or private). Thats my position, I am pro-union but anti- Begg et al.

lion_bar

i don't get IBEC's 400 million cost figure just because the public sector isn't working. Surely, it's just delayed until the next day. I know that when i get back from days off or holidays, I've got piles of work to catch up on, so at the end of the day the work gets done.

If there was to be strike by the ESB and there was no electricity then i can see problems, but how can taking a day off cost the economy 400 million?

P. Breathnach

Taxipete29 wrote: »

... I think they should take a cut. I dont need a reality check, but I have a reasoned attitude to the situation which means I can look at it from both sides. I have not been blinded by the right-wing media bias that you seem to have swallowed like it was the Gospel according to St Brian. The PS and their Unions are not enemies of the state. They are a group of people trying to protect their pay and conditions, however misguided it may be they have that right.

And if those who advocate cuts in public service pay were honest, they would say that the cuts suffered in the private sector were not welcomed by those on whom they were imposed.

If the Govt was not so keen on buying votes over the last 12 years we probably wouldnt be in such a mess.

Agreed.

FF are the real problem in this country. If people put as much energy into removing the Govt as they do into calling for the PS to take wage cuts, then we could have an election and get some real leadership. Brian Cowen hasnt got the bottle to do the job. He is a panderer just like Bertie.

Let's broaden it a bit. The real problem is the way we do politics in this country. We vote for candidates and parties that promise us more than they can reasonably give. The last general election was an auction. The main opposition parties today are still trying to get an edge by pretending that their solutions would be much less painful, even painless for most people. You can't significantly reduce a €20bn+ deficit without hitting a lot of pockets, and hitting them hard.

Taxipete29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Let's broaden it a bit. The real problem is the way we do politics in this country. We vote for candidates and parties that promise us more than they can reasonably give. The last general election was an auction. The main opposition parties today are still trying to get an edge by pretending that their solutions would be much less painful, even painless for most people. You can't significantly reduce a €20bn+ deficit without hitting a lot of pockets, and hitting them hard.

I do generally agree with this

K-9

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I didnt say it was ok to bankrupt the state and I do know pay has to be cut. I dont really see why you are telling me to come on?? I am simply supporting the idea of Unions, I am not supporting the recent tactics, the unpaid leave or ICTU's recent economic recovery plan. The current Union leadership all had their snouts in the trough during the boom times and are not fit to be representing any ordainary workers( public or private). Thats my position, I am pro-union but anti- Begg et al.

We are saying the same thing then!

I understand what you are saying, but the members don't want this new deal and don't want pay cuts either. Who'd blame them? I didn't want pay cuts.

So basically you see the need for pay cuts but support the Members wishes for a strike? Okay! Makes no sense to me, but each to their own!

jank

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Well to start with there is at least one ex-banker who would of gone to prison if he lived in another country.

I agree.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I think they should take a cut. I dont need a reality check, but I have a reasoned attitude to the situation which means I can look at it from both sides. I have not been blinded by the right-wing media bias that you seem to have swallowed like it was the Gospel according to St Brian. The PS and their Unions are not enemies of the state. They are a group of people trying to protect their pay and conditions, however misguided it may be they have that right. If the Govt was not so keen on buying votes over the last 12 years we probably wouldnt be in such a mess..

Right wing media? LOL you are new to this are you. The media here is VERY left wing especially RTE.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

FF are the real problem in this country. If people put as much energy into removing the Govt as they do into calling for the PS to take wage cuts, then we could have an election and get some real leadership. Brian Cowen hasnt got the bottle to do the job. He is a panderer just like Bertie.

This is true to an extent but Irish people have an aversion to marching unless led by some union or another. Get FF out would help alright though, the union has them by the balls.

Taxipete29

K-9 wrote: »

We are saying the same thing then!

I understand what you are saying, but the members don't want this new deal and don't want pay cuts either. Who'd blame them? I didn't want pay cuts.

So basically you see the need for pay cuts but support the Members wishes for a strike? Okay! Makes no sense to me, but each to their own!

No I support their right to strike, there is a big difference.

Taxipete29

jank wrote: »

I agree.



Right wing media? LOL you are new to this are you. The media here is VERY left wing especially RTE.



This is true to an extent but Irish people have an aversion to marching unless led by some union or another. Get FF out would help alright though, the union has them by the balls.

RTE left-wing?? Tell Pat Kenny he is left wing. I am sure he will be surprised.

To be fair people dont just decide to march. There has to be some leadership

K-9

Taxipete29 wrote: »

No I support their right to strike, there is a big difference.

Even though its Turkeys voting for Xmas and could spell the end of Unions. Unions are dying in this country already, this isn't helping!

I find that sad, but its what's happening!

joolsveer

IBEC is a registered trades union. Would you see it crushed as well?

danman

lion_bar wrote: »

i don't get IBEC's 400 million cost figure just because the public sector isn't working. Surely, it's just delayed until the next day. I know that when i get back from days off or holidays, I've got piles of work to catch up on, so at the end of the day the work gets done.

If there was to be strike by the ESB and there was no electricity then i can see problems, but how can taking a day off cost the economy 400 million?

This was my point earlier.
I don't know anyone who took the day off in the private sector on the day of the strike.

Anyone who is working, simply used the same childminders that they use when the children finish school. Most private sector jobs don't finish when the school day ends.

In fact, considering the stories about a surge in shopping centres all over the country (by whoever, public or private), I'd say that it was a boost to the economy.

Again, anyone that had to take the day off, would have used their holiday allocation. An allocation that would be factored in to productivity over the course of a year.

I still think that the Union members wouldn't have the stomach for an all out strike. that would be a lot of wages lost for members and a lot (50million euro/day) saved for the exchequer.

Bring on a strike, if they think that their employers, (Taxpayers all oveer the country), will have sympathy, they really need that reality check.

bamboozle

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Yes but they still pay the levy even though they are not entitled to it. I am not wrong. Not everyone who pays the pension levy is entitled to a pension. Thats a fact



Attitude reflects leadership





Well to start with there is at least one ex-banker who would of gone to prison if he lived in another country.

I think they should take a cut. I dont need a reality check, but I have a reasoned attitude to the situation which means I can look at it from both sides. I have not been blinded by the right-wing media bias that you seem to have swallowed like it was the Gospel according to St Brian. The PS and their Unions are not enemies of the state. They are a group of people trying to protect their pay and conditions, however misguided it may be they have that right. If the Govt was not so keen on buying votes over the last 12 years we probably wouldnt be in such a mess.

FF are the real problem in this country. If people put as much energy into removing the Govt as they do into calling for the PS to take wage cuts, then we could have an election and get some real leadership. Brian Cowen hasnt got the bottle to do the job. He is a panderer just like Bertie.

i agree with all the above, regarding the ex banker who would arguably be locked up, dare i suggest also cetain ex financial regulators who knew about the ex banker transferring personal loans off his banks book prior to its financial year end should also be facing criminal charges.

seangal

K-9 wrote: »

People will put up with it for a few days, then like the Nurses and Teachers strikes before, public opinion will turn against them. People know the money isn't there.



Most know 30k would never be let go because the Unions would end up fighting each other over who to let go.

The public are now realising what this unpaid leave means. More cuts on top of already planned cuts to services.

Agree but I thing from being on boards the public have turned against the PS employee so if they go on strike they cant really turn against them much more and being honest they don’t care.
Mark my words if the government go ahead with the pay cut the public sector will cause this government to FALL in January. I would go as far as to say that is what the Government want as it give them a way out and avoid cleaning up the mess they made.
I would also say this is the agenda the Unions and Irish Media are working on also.

irish_bob

gerry28 wrote: »

Don't forget this country is in the state its in because of the crazy property boom (helped on by FF) and rampant profiteering by sections of the private sector.

Where builders, plumbers, carpenters, tilers etc were demanding a weeks worth of my wages for a days work.

Shop keepers, landlords, publicans, garages, resturants all bumping up their prices and giggling like hyenas as they counted the money.

The public service was slow and steady, simply trying to keep up with the rising standard of living. Its not the other way about.

public sector wages rose faster during the boom than in the private sector and guards earned more than plumbers or electricians this past decade

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

public sector wages rose faster during the boom than in the private sector ...

We have visited this point in the last few days: what you say is not true.

irish_bob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

We have visited this point in the last few days: what you say is not true.

you reject every claim that doesnt sit well with your narrow view , scroll back a few pages and thier is a graph which demonstrates that public sector wages did rise faster than private sector wages in the past decade

irish_bob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

RTE left-wing?? Tell Pat Kenny he is left wing. I am sure he will be surprised.

To be fair people dont just decide to march. There has to be some leadership

pat kenny may not be left wing , i would call him neutral in a thoroughly proffesional manner but rte as a whole has a clear left wing narrative about it , mary wilson is the worst but the kind of people they have on and the kind of storys they report say more about thier idealogy than anything else , week on week , far left minority views from often unelected voices are given platforms to spout thier socilist ,redistribution of wealth rhetoric , fergus ( no child should have to wear hand me down school uniforms ) finlay is a regular contributor across the station , every week he is either telling us how we need to have higher taxes and higher dole and that if the xmas bonus is not reinstated , those on wellfare will starve , yes he actually said this , richard boyd barrett only became a councellor this year yet has been a regular contributor for years

we quite regulary have to withstand the vile ciaran allen , a man who has no elected mandate of any kind make on air calls to bolshevism , joe higgins when he lost his dail seat in 2007 seemed to recieve the same amount of airtime up untill he won a seat as an MEP in 2009 , the poverty industry and various QUANGO queens and kings are trotted out week in week out to tell us all how awfull we are that we are not paying enough tax and how we need to be more like sweeden , as i said at the start , the narrative of the stations is clearly to the left